Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They also sound like an good option for a Helsby to E Port shuttle service..

Was there anything in the wording of the current Northern franchise that precluded the use of Class 230 units?

 

[northwichcat]

Was there anything in the wording of the current Northern franchise that precluded the use of Class 230 units?

The self-powered units proposed in the franchise bids for the December 2019 train plan had to be 15xs, 17xs or new build (excluding rebuilt and upcycled.) There is also no requirement to run a Helsby to Ellesmere Port shuttle, the future limited peak time only service on that branch has to work to Warrington and beyond.

 

[keith1879]

The self-powered units proposed in the franchise bids for the December 2019 train plan had to be 15xs, 17xs or new build (excluding rebuilt and upcycled.) There is also no requirement to run a Helsby to Ellesmere Port shuttle, the future limited peak time only service on that branch has to work to Warrington and beyond.

Indeed they did (have to be). And yet there seemed to be no problem subsequently when the class 319s were to be fitted with diesel engines and supplied to Northern Rail - so I think the most you can say is that 230s were not to be allowed when the franchise agreement was signed. Given that the class 769 (is that right) seems to be proving to be more of a problem than was expected I'm somewhat puzzled to know what we will be riding in from Oxenholme to Windermere (for example). I don't expect class 230s but am starting to expect that the "other 22" class 185s will be sticking around in this area (some of them at least).

 

[northwichcat]

And yet there seemed to be no problem subsequently when the class 319s were to be fitted with diesel engines and supplied to Northern Rail - so I think the most you can say is that 230s were not to be allowed when the franchise agreement was signed. Given that the class 769 (is that right) seems to be proving to be more of a problem than was expected I'm somewhat puzzled to know what we will be riding in from Oxenholme to Windermere (for example). I don't expect class 230s but am starting to expect that the "other 22" class 185s will be sticking around in this area (some of them at least).

It's worth remembering the proposed 769s won't be additional trains but 319s Northern were set to get anyway which are to be modified due to the delay in wiring. Securing the 185s wouldn't even require a modification to the franchise agreement - Northern/DfT could argue they are the additional DMUs 'equivalent in quality and performance to 170s' which Northern have to introduce by 2022.

 

[WatcherZero]

The 185 would produce diagramming issues for Northern however, there are places they are speed restricted due to axle weight and the more off mainline they are the more weak structures they are likely to encounter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 185 would produce diagramming issues for Northern however, there are places they are speed restricted due to axle weight and the more off mainline they are the more weak structures they are likely to encounter.

There is no particular issue with using them on the Barrows and Windermeres, as that is exactly where they are being used now. TBH, if they did stay, I would probably expect an agreement with TPE like the one at present to remain in place.

 

[47802]

There is no particular issue with using them on the Barrows and Windermeres, as that is exactly where they are being used now. TBH, if they did stay, I would probably expect an agreement with TPE like the one at present to remain in place.

Why would the 185's stay they need them back for the new TPE timetable and are likely to need all of them until at least the 802's start to arrive, I don't see 185's going to Northern, I expect the lease will be expensive, yet another type of unit on an already extensive fleet, I think more cascaded 170's or more new 195's are likely or a combination of the two.

 

[D365]

Why would the lease be any less expensive for any other TOC? In fact I imagine it would be more expensive for another TOC to take on those 185s due to them being the only Siemens diesels in the country.

That's just one point I wanted to pick up on, obviously nothing to do with the 230s.

 

[47802]

Why would the lease be any less expensive for any other TOC? In fact I imagine it would be more expensive for another TOC to take on those 185s due to them being the only Siemens diesels in the country.

That's just one point I wanted to pick up on, obviously nothing to do with the 230s.

I never suggested the lease would be any less for any other TOC, but Northern don't really need 185's if they can get more 170's which might be a bit cheaper and compatible with their existing fleet. Anyway as you say we are somewhat digressing from the 230's

 

[WatcherZero]

There is no particular issue with using them on the Barrows and Windermeres, as that is exactly where they are being used now. TBH, if they did stay, I would probably expect an agreement with TPE like the one at present to remain in place.

However 195's have been ordered for the barrow route and 319Flex are intended for Windermere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However 195's have been ordered for the barrow route and 319Flex are intended for Windermere.

They have, but as I've said repeatedly on the threads about Northern in the face of people who think everything is set in stone for the life of the franchise, these things are not immutable; minor elements of a franchise can be renegotiated if needs be. There have been significant delays in the 319 Flex programme (possibly it could even fail and require a mid term replacement option), and there have been reductions in electrification meaning a need for more DMUs in the near future.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I never suggested the lease would be any less for any other TOC, but Northern don't really need 185's if they can get more 170's which might be a bit cheaper and compatible with their existing fleet. Anyway as you say we are somewhat digressing from the 230's

Back to 230s I still think we can be certain Northern won't be having any.

 

[northwichcat]

However 195's have been ordered for the barrow route and 319Flex are intended for Windermere.

The 769 Flex is only intended as an interim solution for Windermere, due to them not meeting Northern Connect standards and will be removed from the route in 2019. If Porterbrook get too far behind schedule then they may never operate to Windermere at all!

 

[northwichcat]

Back to 230s I still think we can be certain Northern won't be having any.

What I was getting at earlier on is taking on 769s isn't really a modification to the franchise agreement - they are just 319s which Northern would take on anyway, modified due to electrification being late with the franchise agreement specifically mentioning DfT are responsible if electrification work isn't completed to schedule. On the other hand it can't really be argued D-Trains are equivalent to Sprinters (should Northern get fewer 150s than envisaged) or are the additional '170 equivalents' so not as easy to drop them on Northern as it would be with the remaining 185s. I imagine DfT are still thinking if they can get away with splitting Liverpool-Norwich then Liverpool-Nottingham is a suitable future home for 185s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the latter use of 185s is very likely, yes, and the three-car units, assuming they were run in pairs, would be a good capacity upgrade for the route. Even more so if the amount of First Class was reduced.

 

[Domh245]

The first battery unit is due to run on the network this summer

Vivarail’s first two-car battery unit is in the final-build stages and is due to run on the national network this summer, the company confirmed on February 21.

Two-car 230002, converted from redundant D-Stock, has been approved for passenger use and is the first production battery unit in the UK. The company described it as “a simple and elegant design that will allow battery trains to replace diesel units with a minimum of time and effort”.

Power is provided by two lithium ion batteries per vehicle (four per train). This provides 106kWh, requiring an eight-minute charge at the end of each journey. Vivrail said that with a ten-minute charge that range is extended to 50 miles. As battery technology improves, so these distances can be extended.

In terms of safety, Vivarail said: “The lithium ion batteries on our trains work only within defined temperature parameters and performance is constantly monitored - so should an incident occur it can be quickly contained and the gases will be filtered before being allowed to dissipate naturally.”

A seven-year lifespan is expected for the batteries. They fit into a battery raft using the same space as a diesel genset.

The two-car ‘230’ can be charged via existing overhead line electrification or third-rail, while for non-electrified routes Vivarail has developed a static battery bank as an alternative charger.

Can anyone think of suitable routes for these units - 25 mile or less round trip with 10 minute or more turnaround times

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can anyone think of suitable routes for these units - 25 mile or less round trip with 10 minute or more turnaround times

If we were willing to accept it only being a shuttle, with the through service to Manchester Airport being done as a connection, the Windermere branch would appear to be a perfect fit.

While the Marston Vale units ordered are said to be DMUs, it'd work there, too; the layover at the Bletchley end is quite long, but as it doesn't interface with anything else at the Bedford or Bletchley end (other than freight) it could be rejigged to split it to a shorter layover at each end.

Basically play a game of "spot the branch line that operates as a branch line with reasonable layovers". The shorter Cornish branches too perhaps? Marks Tey to Sudbury? Thames Valley branches? Windsor shuttle? Stourbridge shuttle once the rubber band finally snaps? There seem to be lots. Actually, it looks like most of the cases for 230s *at all* have a case for the electric version.

In the end it's just a scaled-up electric bus, and there are quite a few of those about now.

 

[Spartacus]

A one way trip to Booths of Rotherham?

 

[Bletchleyite]

A one way trip to Booths of Rotherham?

Could do away with the rechargeable Li-Ions then, and just whack in a job lot of AAs.

 

[HainultLoop]

The two-car ‘230’ can be charged via existing overhead line electrification or third-rail

Excuse my ignorance but could they be charged while running, as opposed to charging at the end of the journey?

 

[B&I]

The first battery unit is due to run on the network this summer



Can anyone think of suitable routes for these units - 25 mile or less round trip with 10 minute or more turnaround times

I'd love to say Ormskirk-Preston, Kirkby-Wigan Wallgate and Bidston-Wrexham, but I suspect turnaround times are insufficient at current frequencies on all of those.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd love to say Ormskirk-Preston, Kirkby-Wigan Wallgate and Bidston-Wrexham, but I suspect turnaround times are insufficient at current frequencies on all of those.

Ormskirk-Preston is about to get a frequency increase to hourly by way of a Blackpool South-Preston-Colne-Preston-Ormskirk-Preston-Blackpool South circuit as used to operate in the late 1990s. I doubt the circuit would have enough layover (I think the idea is to increase frequency without an extra unit and crew, otherwise they'd just put a second unit on the branch and leave Blackpool S-Colne as it is). But if you dedicated two units to the branch for an hourly service there would be plenty of layover for it.

Kirkby-Wigan I thought of as an option but it'd lose its through Manchester service which might be unpopular.

Bidston-Wrexham...interesting idea.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Basically play a game of "spot the branch line that operates as a branch line with reasonable layovers". The shorter Cornish branches too perhaps? Marks Tey to Sudbury? Thames Valley branches? Windsor shuttle? Stourbridge shuttle once the rubber band finally snaps? There seem to be lots. Actually, it looks like most of the cases for 230s *at all* have a case for the electric version.

My word, Vivarail will really have to be on the ball in the production batch scheduling to meet all these new prospective orders. Remember they only have "X" number of LU units to build all the new trains from.

 

[gazthomas]

My word, Vivarail will really have to be on the ball in the production batch scheduling to meet all these new prospective orders. Remember they only have "X" number of LU units to build all the new trains from.

It would be interesting if they went from famine to feast But as you say, it is a "finite" business unless they source new stock. Flat floored, battery Pacer conversions anybody?

 

[hooverboy]

Excuse my ignorance but could they be charged while running, as opposed to charging at the end of the journey?

theoretically yes as a diesel hybrid.(or LPG/NG turbine if that ever got passed)
you would use the engine to power the main battery and an auxilliary for acceleration.
re-gen brakes also charge the auxilliary.
while the train is at a reversal/terminus the engine would charge both during the dwell time.

LPG/LNG is perhaps more exciting as it uses a lot less moving parts,so you can use waste heat do give cabin heating and hotel load electricity,produce a lot more HP/KW from a turbine(need to keep high RPM constant for best efficiency),and it's a lot lighter...which ought to be a boon on track access charges...perfect for a branch line that requires low running costs and quick acceleration.NG being very much cheaper than diesel.
rolls royce actually do the perfect turbine in one of their concept cars...rated at about 500BHP it's ideal for a VLR type 2 car unit.
the beauty of this method is you also have the battery as "limp home" backup if the engine does fail.

problem with this fuel is flammability in case of an accident,given the state and quantity of the stuff involved,although it ought to be safer than road use,which has already got the green light.

it's basically a big CHP boiler on wheels.
the problematic bit will be the control/phase systems...the electric motors will be running at 750vDC(make exception for the new stock which has AC traction and frequency control...but I'm trying to keep this as low cost and low tech as possible as it's branch line trains we're talking about..lets say budget of £1m for a 2 car multiple unit...if we had to build from scratch and produce a cheap but reliable unit,you wouldn't be fiddling around with fancy control systems, just the comms and signalling stuff would be up to date!)
it's not so easy to switch from that to 25kvAC in parallel, you need a certain period of time where each power source is isolated.

 

[Domh245]

Remember they only have "X" number of LU units to build all the new trains from.

ISTR that they can make about 70 trains from what they've got, so even given the written off crash test train, 2 prototype trains and the 3 units already earmarked for Bedford-Bletchley, you're still looking at north of 60 trains to play with - comfortably enough for all of the branches that @Bletchleyite outlined I would suggest - the issue becomes building them all quickly enough!

 

[hooverboy]

to be commercially viable you need something that can replace all 14x and 150/153 units,with the same or lower running costs..so looking upwards of 500 sets.

basically 2 car unit,with relevant loo/disabled access/cycle or pram bays,100 seats,75mph capable and weighing in at 35-40 tonnes total(with about 1.0m/s/s acceleration)

 

[Bletchleyite]

to be commercially viable you need something that can replace all 14x and 150/153 units,with the same or lower running costs..so looking upwards of 500 sets.

basically 2 car unit,with relevant loo/disabled access/cycle or pram bays,100 seats,75mph capable and weighing in at 35-40 tonnes total(with about 1.0m/s/s acceleration)

Why do you need to replace all of the 14x and 150/153s with them? To be commercially viable they just need to sell enough of them to recoup their development, staffing, accommodation, marketing and build costs.

You could build something like what you describe - a UK version of the Stadler WINK would probably do it, as would many other things, but that's not really what the 230 is about, it's a little more niche than that.

 

[WatcherZero]

The 769 Flex is only intended as an interim solution for Windermere, due to them not meeting Northern Connect standards and will be removed from the route in 2019. If Porterbrook get too far behind schedule then they may never operate to Windermere at all!

Its more likely now if the Flex are delivered they will stay till the governments selfpower trial on the line begins in 2020/21.

 

[The Ham]

Excuse my ignorance but could they be charged while running, as opposed to charging at the end of the journey?

theoretically yes as a diesel hybrid.(or LPG/NG turbine if that ever got passed)
you would use the engine to power the main battery and an auxilliary for acceleration.
re-gen brakes also charge the auxilliary.
while the train is at a reversal/terminus the engine would charge both during the dwell time.

LPG/LNG is perhaps more exciting as it uses a lot less moving parts,so you can use waste heat do give cabin heating and hotel load electricity,produce a lot more HP/KW from a turbine(need to keep high RPM constant for best efficiency),and it's a lot lighter...which ought to be a boon on track access charges...perfect for a branch line that requires low running costs and quick acceleration.NG being very much cheaper than diesel.
rolls royce actually do the perfect turbine in one of their concept cars...rated at about 500BHP it's ideal for a VLR type 2 car unit.
the beauty of this method is you also have the battery as "limp home" backup if the engine does fail.

problem with this fuel is flammability in case of an accident,given the state and quantity of the stuff involved,although it ought to be safer than road use,which has already got the green light.

it's basically a big CHP boiler on wheels.
the problematic bit will be the control/phase systems...the electric motors will be running at 750vDC(make exception for the new stock which has AC traction and frequency control...but I'm trying to keep this as low cost and low tech as possible as it's branch line trains we're talking about..lets say budget of £1m for a 2 car multiple unit...if we had to build from scratch and produce a cheap but reliable unit,you wouldn't be fiddling around with fancy control systems, just the comms and signalling stuff would be up to date!)
it's not so easy to switch from that to 25kvAC in parallel, you need a certain period of time where each power source is isolated.

As I understand it, a battery/EMU version should be able to run under the wires topping up its charge ready to run on a unpowered branch line.

However, most mainlines that have wires are not likely to be the best of locations for a 60mph train.