Virgin Trains East Coast franchise to end 24 June 2018 and is temporarily re-nationalised

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps in the future, the DFT shouldn't set out a service requirement, instead the bidders offer their service plans, and DFT pick the best? Fare structure could be set by the operator, and Network rail could also become a set of franchises, rather than government owned

Isn't that more like it was in the early days? There was the PSR, a bare-minimum service the TOCs had to provide, but most of them went way above it.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Isn't that more like it was in the early days? There was the PSR, a bare-minimum service the TOCs had to provide, but most of them went way above it.

Yeah, I guess so, although I am suggesting that the TOC bidders, give their options, and the DFT accept which is best, rather than DFT force an operator to run a specific service at a specific time.

I'm also not suggesting rail track returns, I am actually suggesting that the different parts of NR get franchised out. The signalling could be run by one company, and the track maintenance could be run by another.

 

[urpert]

I've had "standard class is that way, Sir" a few times by various TOCs even as a fully grown adult (as I tend to dress very casually when travelling, and prefer a rucksack over a trolley suitcase). It's usually best met with a smile and something like "Yes, thank you, I'm well aware of that", or "Yes, thank you, but I have a First Class ticket/intend to upgrade[1]". Usually it makes said presumptuous member of staff skulk off with their tail between their legs.

[1] Only on weekends, obviously.

I have a clear memory of the half-height ‘saloon door’ originally fitted to Mk3 Restaurant Buffets to protect first class dining customers from the plebs queuing at the buffet counter. Not sure when they were removed.

 

[Class 170101]

Isn't that more like it was in the early days? There was the PSR, a bare-minimum service the TOCs had to provide, but most of them went way above it.

Yeah, I guess so, although I am suggesting that the TOC bidders, give their options, and the DFT accept which is best, rather than DFT force an operator to run a specific service at a specific time.

I still think there is a role for the DfT to do some specificing otherwise the TOCs would remove loss making trains without any idea as to the consequences to the overall railway. There is no guarantee that passengers just travel with one operator.

I'm also not suggesting rail track returns, I am actually suggesting that the different parts of NR get franchised out. The signalling could be run by one company, and the track maintenance could be run by another.

Will give the different disciplines of NR even more of an excuse to avoid working with each other. So the passenger will lose out as more possessions are needed over any given area just complete the same amount of work NR do today. Remember NR are apparently 15% less efficient now than at the start of Control Period 5 according to the ORR.

 

[jon0844]

I think the DfT would have to lay down a lot of rules. As said above, early trains might go. Late trains might go. Daytime frequencies might fall. Timetables might be adjusted without caring for other operators.

It just shows how privatisation really isn't what a lot of people think it to be.

Certain politicians and the likes of the RMT bank on most people not knowing of course!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Isn't that more like it was in the early days? There was the PSR, a bare-minimum service the TOCs had to provide, but most of them went way above it.

With the exception of Wales and West , who went below it several times , and got massively penalised for it. Barnstaple and Bristol area come to mind ...

 

[DenmarkRail]

With the risk of sounding VERY VERY VERY stupid:

Given that VTEC's fleet plan isn't the best at this point, due to the failures of the broken Network Rail, would it make sense to purchase MK5 carriages to be used, to replace the rest of the HST stock / MK4 stock?

 

[Domh245]

The fleet plan is something that they had very little say in. They went into the bidding process knowing that the Government had procured a whole load of IEP trains which they would be forced to use, and if we were to go back to an operator of last resort, they'd also have to use the IEPs. Also, they're being built at the moment, with a complete units already. Why on earth would you drop those and wait for a few years for CAF to deliver some Mk5s?

 

[AlexNL]

I've interpreted George Moore's question as not being about the IEPs, as he was specifically asking about "the rest of the HST stock / MK4 stock". I'm assuming this refers to the rolling stock which VTEC would retain for some services, next to the Azuma's.

I have no idea whether or not it would be viable to replace that with Mk5's, a new operator might as well order some additional AT300's from Hitachi so that they have a more uniform fleet.

That does make me wonder what is to happen with the Azuma fleet. It is my understanding that VTEC managed to apply their own branding to the IEP fleet, while GWR had to stick with the interior specced by DfT's civil servants. If VTEC is expected to be history by the end of the year, it wouldn't surprise me if the interior fittings of the IEP fleet are already being torn out.

 

[HowardGWR]

I would have thought that the interior of coaches or the exterior of them, would be the last thing on the mind of DfT at the moment.

 

[w1bbl3]

The VTEC interior spec will just be carpet, cloth / leather, plastic, paint and foam, nothing that couldn't be easily changed for a cost. IIRC the first and standard seat frames and table bodies are spec items common between Agility east coast and western. Things like the wall panels, trims, overhead racks, interior doors will all be common with the difference being the colour or the finish applied.

The exterior can obviously be vinyled, are the VTEC versions factory painted in full VTEC branding anyway?

In terms of the future fleet I thought that current timetabled operation's will become 100% IET and the mk4's only needed to retained to operate the extra limited stop paths which NR are currently unlikely to deliver in time. The question is I suspect one of how long Eversholt will be prepared to store the 91's and Mk4's between IET replacement and the additional paths being available, more than a few years and I can see the ECML TOC needing to order AT300's or loco's and Mk5's...

 

[Envoy]

PROGRAMME ALERT for Monday 12 February, 2018. ‘Should The East Coast Mainline Be Renationalised’? - This will be an item in Inside Out on BBC 1 East and also available on BBC 1 HD throughout England. (BBC 1HD is also available in Wales, Scotland & NI via satellite). 7.30pm.

 

[Failed Unit]

With the risk of sounding VERY VERY VERY stupid:

Given that VTEC's fleet plan isn't the best at this point, due to the failures of the broken Network Rail, would it make sense to purchase MK5 carriages to be used, to replace the rest of the HST stock / MK4 stock?

Hard to tell as this could be a chicken and egg situation. The existing stock is worked extremely intensively. It could be the case that what is left can have more maintenance time do the failure rate decreases. The 91s / Mk4 have topped the most reliable trains table in the past (admittedly after a refurb) but more TLC may be all they need. At the moment list 1 they are stretched lose 2 and services get cancelled.

Interesting how quickly Virgin have distanced themselves from all this with the franchise is 90% stagecoach. I agree with others, considering they branded the service I hope some mud sticks. Never understood why they thought Virgin was a better brand to be honest. It is not as if SWT or EMT had a bad reputation. To me stagecoach where the best of the bus boys (until now).

 

[JaJaWa]

Interesting how quickly Virgin have distanced themselves from all this with the franchise is 90% stagecoach.

Where have they said that?

 

[Failed Unit]

Where have they said that?

Pretty much everything in the press is "Stagecoach" - "Stagecoach overbid" and it is also made very clear that it is a 90% stagecoach owned company. Which is quite a surprise to most of the customers who thought it was Virgin trians. Many didn't actually know it was a majority stagecoach own company.

 

[FQTV]

Where have they said that?

The suggestion is that the general public were/are unaware that the East Coast operator is anything other than 100% Virgin. Of course, the branding is 100% Virgin, but there's also the observation that 'the media' has tended towards referring to Virgin when there's a positive angle, and Stagecoach when there's (now) a negative angle, with only a recent acknowledgement of the balance between the two in ownership terms. The question that some are asking is whether Virgin PR is guiding this change of tone.



Perhaps worth noting that the first article is actually a Press Association one published by The Daily Mail, whereas the later one is credited to a The Daily Mail reporter.

It's obviously OT to the operational implications of the franchise termination, but it's an observation about the reporting of it that many have mentioned.

 

[swt_passenger]

Way back when this appeared,

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...2017/dec/06/new-vision-railways-short-sighted

which was linked to at the time, I had a distinct feeling that "Virgin" were being eased out of the picture.
The Stagecoach:Virgin ratio in the text is exactly 9:1 - I doubt that happened accidentally...

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Livery and interior of the new trains surely wouldn’t be changed. Obviously they’d take all the Virgin logos off everything but what you’d probably find is the operator of last resort if that’s the way it’s going would design their brand so it can be integrated with the colour scheme and interiors etc

 

[SaveECRewards]

Livery and interior of the new trains surely wouldn’t be changed. Obviously they’d take all the Virgin logos off everything but what you’d probably find is the operator of last resort if that’s the way it’s going would design their brand so it can be integrated with the colour scheme and interiors etc

I was fairly sure that it's meant to be possible to strip off the vinyl and get back to a neutral livery (EC grey), the Azuma livery is also entirely vinyl so the same thing could be done there too. It would be a shame to go back to grey but I could see that happening.

The interiors are likely to remain the same, replacing the seat covers would be costly for little gain.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I love it , how every debate seems to come back to "branding" or livery , or such.

What about the front line staff - or dare I say it , management ?

 

[FQTV]

I love it , how every debate seems to come back to "branding" or livery , or such.

What about the front line staff - or dare I say it , management ?

With the best will in the world, despite all the flimflam and politicising of operations on a crucial piece of national infrastructure, isn't it the case that all that the vast majority of ticket holders see change from one day to the next is some stickers?

 

[pt_mad]

If they ask Virgin to stay on, on this management not for profit caretaker basis, what is actually in it for Virgin? As surely they are only interested in profit of which there would be none.

 

[Failed Unit]

If they ask Virgin to stay on, on this management not for profit caretaker basis, what is actually in it for Virgin? As surely they are only interested in profit of which there would be none.

I suspect like when they were in the same position on west coast. A risk free fixed fee.

 

[SaveECRewards]

I love it , how every debate seems to come back to "branding" or livery , or such.

What about the front line staff - or dare I say it , management ?

Frontline staff will be fine thanks to TUPE. Many people working for the franchise have been through the collapse of GNER and NXEC.

I do think most staff want a bit of stability and going back to direct operation would give some of that.

It's usually just the senior management that get replaced, but VTEC seems like a management heavy organisation and trimming away some layers of management is worth looking at (if Stagecoach stays on they really should look at this anyway)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Frontline staff will be fine thanks to TUPE. Many people working for the franchise have been through the collapse of GNER and NXEC.

I do think most staff want a bit of stability and going back to direct operation would give some of that.

It's usually just the senior management that get replaced, but VTEC seems like a management heavy organisation and trimming away some layers of management is worth looking at (if Stagecoach stays on they really should look at this anyway)

I appreciate all that -(been through it a few times !) , in terms of management , I was considering the likes of station supervisors , what we used to call Trains Managers / Crew Supervisors and Traction (Compliance) Managers etc - these are the folk that really drive the grind of the day to day railway. I know some ex EC Managers who took the retirement option (early) in DOR days as they just could not cope / fancy yet another "owner" - the 4th after BR !

 

[FQTV]

I appreciate all that -(been through it a few times !) , in terms of management , I was considering the likes of station supervisors , what we used to call Trains Managers / Crew Supervisors and Traction (Compliance) Managers etc - these are the folk that really drive the grind of the day to day railway. I know some ex EC Managers who took the retirement option (early) in DOR days as they just could not cope / fancy yet another "owner" - the 4th after BR !

While I know that's true, there are also some 'managers' who have embraced the whole Virgin hyperbole with gusto, for whatever reasons.

And there are many, many others who have battled, courageously, to continue delivering solidly good service despite, and in spite of, the passing prattling of the contemporaneous contractor.

Some of them, I remember, were those who stepped from every GNER door and made impressions that are still recalled almost twenty years later.

 

[bearhugger]

An article on the BBC website today:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43022843

Stagecoach East Coast deal to be probed by MPs

Image copyrightGETTY IMAGES
The decision to end the East Coast Mainline rail franchise early is to come under scrutiny from MPs.

The Department for Transport has said Stagecoach and Virgin will withdraw from running the service within months after running into difficulties.

Now the House of Commons transport committee has announced that it will hold an inquiry into the matter.

Rail Minister Jo Johnson acknowledged the companies overbid for the right to run the service.

He told the BBC's Today programme: "They overbid, it's very simple and the department is looking very carefully into the bidding process to ensure there aren't any incentives for bidders to overbid."

However, he said it was not possible to remove the element of risk entirely: "With any private enterprise there is an element of risk. It is unrealistic to expect government to eliminate that altogether."

'Wider implications'
Lilian Greenwood, who chairs the transport committee, said: "There are serious questions to be asked of the train operator, Network Rail and ministers and the transport committee intends to ask them.

"The failure of the East Coast franchise has wider implications for rail franchising and the competitiveness of the current system. Lessons need to be learned by all concerned.

"In the meantime, the Department for Transport must take the right steps to protect passengers and taxpayers. Safeguards must be put in place to restore public confidence in the sustainability of our railways."

The East Coast Mainline franchise was taken into public ownership in 2009 after being run by National Express.

It was re-privatised when Stagecoach and Virgin signed a deal to run the East Coast line from 2015 to 2023, promising to pay the government £3.3bn to run the service.

Stagecoach owns 90% of the joint venture and Virgin owns the remaining 10%.

Last week, Transport Secretary Chris Grayling said Stagecoach had "got its numbers wrong" and would continue running the London to Edinburgh line only for "a small number of months and no more".

He said the government might step in to run the service, adding that the day-to-day operation of the line would be unaffected.

The National Audit Office has already announced it will investigate the government's handling of the franchise.

Image copyrightUK PARLIAMENT
Image captionChris Grayling is considering two solutions to the issue
A Stagecoach Group spokesman said: "Virgin Trains East Coast is a well-run, profitable railway and we are continuing to meet our contractual commitments, as we have done throughout the past 21 years in operating train services on behalf of the government."

He added that customer satisfaction with the route was high and that it was "delivering 30% higher payments to the taxpayer than when the route was in public ownership".

And Mr Johnson told the BBC that passenger journeys had doubled since the line had been run as a franchise in the 1990s.

Mr Grayling has said he is considering two approaches.

One option is to allow Stagecoach to continue operating the franchise on a short-term and not-for-profit basis until a new contract is awarded in 2020.

Alternatively, East Coast Mainline could be brought back under government control and be run by the Department for Transport through an operator of last resort.

 

[pt_mad]

An article on the BBC website today:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43022843

∆∆There should not be incentives to overbid?∆∆
Surely the incentive is: higher bid seems to get the franchise and most spending seems to win it?

Surely the safeguards needed are DFT saying 'those revenue projections are too optimistic and you aren't likely to achieve them'?

If passenger numbers and ticket sales aren't up to what was estimated then what can any franchisee do? Only state run can cope with a loss of value of ticket sales as all projections seem to be of rises in everything, including first class uptake etc.

 

[Domh245]

Surely the safeguards needed are DFT saying 'those revenue projections are too optimistic and you aren't likely to achieve them'?

From what I've read, that is something the DfT do (testing the revenue projections) - seemingly VTEC passed this test, otherwise they wouldn't have been awarded the franchise!

 

[pt_mad]

From what I've read, that is something the DfT do (testing the revenue projections) - seemingly VTEC passed this test, otherwise they wouldn't have been awarded the franchise!

And yet the DFT is saying now they (VStagecoach) overbid, and got their figures wrong? The DFT isnt saying they were reasonably over optimistic and that the DFT vetted the figures and agreed they were acceptable?