What obligations are created under a penalty fare scheme?

[moliones]

Reading various threads involving penalty fares here has raised on question here that I haven't seen discussed.

What obligations on the passenger are created by a penalty fare scheme?

As I see it, if possible to purchase a ticket before travel, then to do so is a requirement regardless of the penalty fare situation. If not possible, then a penalty fares scheme requires (sometimes?) a permit to travel / promise to pay.
So the penalty fare just seems like an administratively-easier means of "punishing" passengers who broke the rules somehow, without the hassle of going through the courts every time.

Is a penalty fare scheme more of an indicator of intention of the TOC? Or is there some other "extra" obligation that passengers have that I have missed?

 

[PeterC]

When penalty fares were first introduced the stations concerned had to have some means of purchasing a ticket or other authority to travel at all times and permit to travel machines were provided for when ticket offices were closed.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

AFAIK, the introduction of a PF scheme doesn't change the passenger's obligations (though there may be something about having to use PERTIS machines). There are advantages to both TOC and passenger - for the TOC, it means less administration, reduced costs and so on as there is a statutory basis for these 'penalties' as a theoretically civilly enforceable debt, and so it's a lot easier to issue and collect more PFs (which in most cases will deliver a significant profit over the real fare due). For the passenger, the 'penalty' is a lot less than if they were taken to Court, there is no conviction, hearing etc., plus there is to a degree a nationally standardised scheme (where PF is in operation) addressing ticketless travel. I guess the disadvantages to the TOC are that it doesn't create quite the same deterrent effect as a prosecution (e.g. for a lot of people a £20 Penalty is quite insignificant), and that they're difficult to enforce if not paid, requiring the expense of a prosecution; for the passenger, they're arbitrary and are often issued without discretion - some would prefer to fight it out in Court than to attempt to fight it with the arguably unfair appeals service.

A lot of TOCs have franchise obligations to introduce or maintain a PF scheme, so it's not necessarily an indication of their intentions, however they can of course vary how effectively this is enforced and publicised, and whether or not they extend it.

 

[swt_passenger]

The hardware requirement isn’t nationally standardised. SWT removed all permit to travel machines a few years ago except at a handful of stations where a TVM is not provided. This coincided with the rollout of modern TVMs from S&B.
They do not have a northern style “promise to pay” option either.
I don’t believe the lack of the above invalidates the scheme.

 

[najaB]

So the penalty fare just seems like an administratively-easier means of "punishing" passengers who broke the rules somehow, without the hassle of going through the courts every time.

IMO, if you substitute penalise for "punishing" then it's a fair representation of the facts.

 

[moliones]

IMO, if you substitute penalise for "punishing" then it's a fair representation of the facts.

Yeah, I was a bit hesitant to write punishing in the first place; I guess I meant more to provide some incentive to obey the ticketing rules, and the penalty fare is some negative reinforcement that a ticket should be purchased before travel.

I guess I get a bit confused seeing threads where people feel hard done-by for getting a PF, when they didn't have a ticket but did have the opportunity to purchase before travelling. Maybe it is a general lack of understanding that the alternative could easily be prosecution.

Of course, it doesn't help that on many trains the guard will still happily sell tickets to people who got on at a station with an open ticket office. Yesterday I caught a train from Hull, 3 TVMs and a ticket office with no queue when I was there; I guess half of the people in my carriage purchased on board.