Budget Train Operators: Could they work in The UK?

[Dentonian]

Capacity problem the rail network in the midlands is full, as it is around London

And Piccadilly is over full.

 

[class26]

easyJet started out with a couple of wet-leased aircraft and expanded from there. I also don't think they are quite as "budget" these days as Ryanair are.

Certainly not. Today apparently Easy jet are quoting over £1000 p.p. for a return from the Uk to Geneva on certain flights!

I am in the travel business and regularly book groups on airlines out the Uk and I regard Easy Jet as the MOST expensive of all the airlines. BA , 5 times out of 6 will be cheaper.

Sorry, a bit off topic but wanted to dispel the myths of some so called "low cost" airlines.

 

[Dentonian]

Certainly not. Today apparently Easy jet are quoting over £1000 p.p. for a return from the Uk to Geneva on certain flights!

I am in the travel business and regularly book groups on airlines out the Uk and I regard Easy Jet as the MOST expensive of all the airlines. BA , 5 times out of 6 will be cheaper.

Sorry, a bit off topic but wanted to dispel the myths of some so called "low cost" airlines.

Hardly a fair comparison! How many UK airports/cities are served with regular, direct services by easyjet (or Ryanair or even flybe for that matter)? Double figures in each case, surely. And how many are served by BA? ONE

 

[Bletchleyite]

easyJet started out with a couple of wet-leased aircraft and expanded from there. I also don't think they are quite as "budget" these days as Ryanair are.

Sleasy have long taken a different approach to Ryanair - the general feel is less cheap-and-nasty, while they use city centre airports (they even want Heathrow slots). The "low cost" approach they take is the strongly yield managed and unbundled approach to ticketing.

TBH I think they have taken that role because competing against Ryanair on simple price is almost impossible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Certainly not. Today apparently Easy jet are quoting over £1000 p.p. for a return from the Uk to Geneva on certain flights!

There is one obvious reason for that - half term. Luton to Geneva is otherwise typically pretty cheap.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do find it interesting that no UK Open Access TOC has ever opted out of ORCATS or even gone compulsory reservation. Are they allowed to, or is it a condition of being an operator? Or is it that the ORCATS raid is too profitable to turn down?

 

[class26]

There is one obvious reason for that - half term. Luton to Geneva is otherwise typically pretty cheap.

Obviously but BA was still £200 cheaper than Easy jet on the same days. My point was that Easy Jet are NOT a low cost carrier anymore.
And to answer the point about not being a fair comparison I was comparing ONLY London flights with both EJ and BA. In my mind that is a fair comparison. Yes, if you live in the north west you are more likely to use Easy from say liverpool than BA from Heathrow

 

[ainsworth74]

I do find it interesting that no UK Open Access TOC has ever opted out of ORCATS or even gone compulsory reservation. Are they allowed to, or is it a condition of being an operator? Or is it that the ORCATS raid is too profitable to turn down?

I believe OAOs could opt out of the TSA (and thereby the NRCoT, ORCATs and having to accept inter-available tickets) but, I presume, none so far have felt that it would be financially wise to do so.

Franchises have to sign up to the TSA, again as far as I'm aware, as part of their agreement with the DfT.

 

[D365]

First do appear to like IETs (they've ordered them for Hull Trains, GWR and TPE) but as far as I'm aware there has been nothing official about what sort of rolling stock they are looking for other than 125mph capable EMUs.

The GWR 802s were a follow-up order to IEP (through a 'conventional' leasing arrangement with Eversholt), whilst the TPE and HT units were an add-on to the first 802 order, financed by Angel Trains albeit.

 

[Dentonian]

There is one obvious reason for that - half term. Luton to Geneva is otherwise typically pretty cheap.

Obviously but BA was still £200 cheaper than Easy jet on the same days. My point was that Easy Jet are NOT a low cost carrier anymore.
And to answer the point about not being a fair comparison I was comparing ONLY London flights with both EJ and BA. In my mind that is a fair comparison. Yes, if you live in the north west you are more likely to use Easy from say liverpool than BA from Heathrow

Maybe the term "low cost" is out of date now. In sharp contrast to the declining bus industry, competition in the expanding Airline industry does seem to conform to Market theory by driving down prices across the board, so in real terms most flights are cheaper. This has naturally favoured the South East mostly, with the rest of the country still playing "catch up". For instance, back in 2015 I was planning to fly MAN-FRA for a short Summer break. My plans were flexible, such that I could have gone anytime in June, July or August (provided it wasn't midweek, and I don't do late night flights out and early morning back) and I was monitoring economy fares from about Easter, At the time Lufthansa had a monopoly from MAN, and no matter which weekend I chose and whether it was Thu-Sun, Fri-Mon or Sat-Tue...or even just two nights within, I was getting £505 to £530 ALL Summer. The only way of reducing it was to fly via Dusseldorf in one direction and transferring by rail. This could only be done with a specific connecting train, and brought the fare down to £289. Meanwhile, regular obs of LHR-FRA revealed return fares around £88-90 throughout the same period.

Interestingly, "Regional supplements" have never applied to long haul flights - the anomoly there is that you will constantly get adverts enticing you towards discounts and sales from Heathrow, but once you go into the Airline website, you find MAN is the same price...or even cheaper! Too much capacity out of London methinks.................

PS. Its half term in and around Manchester next week, not this, so maybe here's where this week's good deals are. Wouldn't know as I've never booked a flight/holiday less than a month before departure.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A high fare on EasyJet means they are almost sold out.
Isn't that what demand management is supposed to do?
They are flying me from Manchester to Munich and back from Sofia in June for £56, that seems pretty "low-cost" to me.
The railway complicates all this by having fixed fares with unlimited availability (plus a range of variable advance fares).
On another front, the prospect of low-cost services through the channel tunnel has to cope with the fixed tolls demanded by Eurotunnel.
I can't remember if they are per-train or per-passenger, but they are at least one reason why Eurostar fares always seem so high.

 

[DarloRich]

After reading up about Ouigo and IZY (budget equivelants of TGV and Thalys respectivally), I wondered, could such an idea work in the Uk? The trains could be Standard Class throughout, with only advanced tickets being sold and less staff and no catering compared to usual long distance trains.

They would work several trips each day on busy routes between big cities e.g. London to Edinburgh.

Pricing would be only a fraction of existing journeys.

Links to Wikipedia Articles:
IZY - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IZY

Ouigo - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouigo

Could they work here as a concept - certainly

Could they fit onto the network? Not easily

Would our franchising arrangements allow them access? Unlikely

Will they happen..........

 

[xotGD]

Back in the day, didn't there used to be a low cost service from Newcastle to KX branded as 'The Highwayman'? Routed via the Durham coast and goodness knows where else. I remember seeing a phot of it with a 40 on the front.

You really need city pairs with a primary fast route and a secondary slow route - for example Edinburgh to Glasgow or Leeds to Manchester - where the low cost operator takes the slower route.

 

[6Gman]

Back in the day, didn't there used to be a low cost service from Newcastle to KX branded as 'The Highwayman'? Routed via the Durham coast and goodness knows where else. I remember seeing a phot of it with a 40 on the front.

There was indeed. Slow. Pretty ancient Mk I stock, no catering, Class 40 hauled. The two trains crossed at Doncaster where the crews swopped over.

 

[Ianno87]

North Western Trains' short lived Manchester Airport-Euston services probably fitted the nill of this thread, back in the days when WCML capacity existed for such things. Didn't/couldn't use Piccadilly, and elongated 3+hr journey time for pathing (pre-4 track Trent Valley, thence via Northampton and the Slow Lines).

£20 return as a result.

 

[Dentonian]

North Western Trains' short lived Manchester Airport-Euston services probably fitted the nill of this thread, back in the days when WCML capacity existed for such things. Didn't/couldn't use Piccadilly, and elongated 3+hr journey time for pathing (pre-4 track Trent Valley, thence via Northampton and the Slow Lines).

£20 return as a result.

I remember that. In fact, it bailed me out one Saturday. I had been to Birmingham for the day and on returning there had been a major signal failure at Snow Hill. Consequently, no long distance trains were passing through New Street. I had to catch a local train which went a circuitous route to Wolverhampton, where in theory I could connect with a Cross-Country train back to Stockport. However, the next train due (should have been around 30 minutes) was severely delayed. Fortunately, this service was due in about 15/20 minutes and our tickets were accepted. Not the quickest journey, but it was a pleasant evening weather wise, so I was happy to call into the Airport, then catch a bus back to Stockport and from memory still beat the X-country train! Interestingly, the only other time I caught a train from the West Midlands to Stockport there was also a major signal failure - this time near Coventry - which was even more disruptive and chaotic, so after a mix of being stranded in the freezing cold at Coventry, then catching a train to Nuneaton to catch a connection back to Stockport (which was promptly cancelled); having to double back to New Street and wade through thousands upon thousands of stranded passengers, I was finally herded onto another train, arriving back in Stockport about 2.5 hours later than scheduled. Due to illness, I've not been back since (this was Xmas 2012), but I vowed there and then that I would NEVER use rail to/through the West Midlands again!

 

[InTheEastMids]

Today apparently Easy jet are quoting over £1000 p.p.

Don't confuse low cost and low price. EasyJet and Ryanair have a lower cost base, which enables them to offer lower prices if they choose to. They managed this by attacking everything in the cost stack of the "traditional" carrier, including avoiding expensive pinch-points (i.e. high cost airports), homogenous new fleets that are reliable and fuel-efficient, high fleet utilisation (short turn-arounds), and finally staff costs (salaries). There's clearly a big advantage from scale in that industry because there's really only about 6-7 major airlines in Europe, everybody else is niche and/or struggling to survive.

How does this relate to rail? The industry seems to be trying to copy as much of the model as they can e.g. the push to DOO, the homogenisation of train fleets, demand-based pricing. However, as others have pointed out, network constraints, franchises and ticketing effectively prevent this kind of new entrant. Repeat this thought experiment: Pretend you find £1 Gazillion down the sofa, and use this to recruit a team of top class rail management talent. Buy 1000 brand-new trains at rock-bottom prices, and imagine you are somehow able to pay staff minimum wage. You are sitting there with a massive cost advantage over the incumbents - like Norwegian, Ryanair etc...

Now, where and when are you going to run these trains to both grow new revenue, and abstract the incumbents' revenue - given they have the train paths and you don't?

 

[whhistle]

London to Edinburgh is fully wired. They need EMUs.

Need?
Or "would be sensible"?

 

[ainsworth74]

Need?
Or "would be sensible"?

Ha true!

Though they did bid for paths on the basis of EMUs as far as I'm aware.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Need?
Or "would be sensible"?

Ha true!
Though they did bid for paths on the basis of EMUs as far as I'm aware.

Yes, but the northern part of the line has insufficient power for all the services promised (VTEC, TPE, First Open Access).
The necessary power upgrade is one of the issues for the VTEC franchise expansion.
It might be why we haven't heard much from First about its new trains.

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes, but the northern part of the line has insufficient power for all the services promised (VTEC, TPE, First Open Access).
The necessary power upgrade is one of the issues for the VTEC franchise expansion.
It might be why we haven't heard much from First about its new trains.

That was rattling around in the back of my mind it must be said. I still have (an almost certainly forlorn) hope that Network Rail and the DfT will pull their finger out and sort out the power supply problems by the time we get towards 2021.

 

[xotGD]

Yes, but the northern part of the line has insufficient power for all the services promised (VTEC, TPE, First Open Access).
The necessary power upgrade is one of the issues for the VTEC franchise expansion.
It might be why we haven't heard much from First about its new trains.

EMU KX - Newcastle, strap a 67 on the front for the run up to Waverley.

 

[swaldman]

After reading up about Ouigo and IZY (budget equivelants of TGV and Thalys respectivally), I wondered, could such an idea work in the Uk? The trains could be Standard Class throughout, with only advanced tickets being sold and less staff and no catering compared to usual long distance trains.

From the customer's perspective, how is that any different to buying an Advance ticket and not buying from the trolley?
I mean, there might be a case for running trains that are only this, but it isn't a new offering.

 

[fusionblue]

Steal all the SET 376s, add pantographs and make it a 10 coach with a "toilet stop" half way. Standing journeys cost less.

 

[Carlisle]

So we’ve established a low cost operator is perfectly feasible and could quite possibly be successful, however it’s unlikely as current rail franchises can’t easily or affordably be altered to accommodate them before they expire

 

[daikilo]

From the customer's perspective, how is that any different to buying an Advance ticket and not buying from the trolley?
I mean, there might be a case for running trains that are only this, but it isn't a new offering.

I have never really understood how the SNCF Ouigo (previously idTGV and internet only) is supposed to work other than idTGV started when few people did internet booking. Indeed, you could book idTGV as a fare on the SNCF website.

If First is allowed to start open-access operations on the ECML then it will at least be a different company with potentially a different 'system'. I would see it more like EasyJet or Ryanair but have yet to see how they reduce costs significantly. That said, the LCC airlines have been so successful that they are forcing 'non-LCCs' to emulate their pricing and services.

Note: do not confuse low-cost with low-price, the former applies per departure whereas the latter is actually driven by a complex time-based demand model and an assumption that all departures will be at a seat-load-factor over 90% (or a higher number).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Steal all the SET 376s, add pantographs and make it a 10 coach with a "toilet stop" half way. Standing journeys cost less.

Izy (Thalys's version) actually does sell standing tickets for less than seated ones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

EMU KX - Newcastle, strap a 67 on the front for the run up to Waverley.

Or Class 802 (or bi-mode FLIRT, but I'd think IEP more likely for First), then remove the engines once the wires get sorted. I'd think this rather more likely.

 

[swt_passenger]

That was rattling around in the back of my mind it must be said. I still have (an almost certainly forlorn) hope that Network Rail and the DfT will pull their finger out and sort out the power supply problems by the time we get towards 2021.

Network Rail's recent response to the chair of the Transport committee was that they had never been funded to start what they call ECML "PSU2". AFAICT it was the Hendy report that pushed it more firmly into CP6, but it wasn't budgeted for in CP5 anyway.

 

[fusionblue]

Izy (Thalys's version) actually does sell standing tickets for less than seated ones.

But would you really want to be standing on a train, a toilet-less 376, for a journey of that length?