Budget Train Operators: Could they work in The UK?

[Halish Railway]

After reading up about Ouigo and IZY (budget equivelants of TGV and Thalys respectivally), I wondered, could such an idea work in the Uk? The trains could be Standard Class throughout, with only advanced tickets being sold and less staff and no catering compared to usual long distance trains.

They would work several trips each day on busy routes between big cities e.g. London to Edinburgh.

Pricing would be only a fraction of existing journeys.

Links to Wikipedia Articles:
IZY - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IZY

Ouigo - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouigo

 

[zaax]

Capacity problem the rail network in the midlands is full, as it is around London

 

[175mph]

After reading up about Ouigo and IZY (budget equivelants of TGV and Thalys respectivally), I wondered, could such an idea work in the Uk? The trains could be Standard Class throughout, with only advanced tickets being sold and less staff and no catering compared to usual long distance trains.

They would work several trips each day on busy routes between big cities e.g. London to Edinburgh.

Pricing would be only a fraction of existing journeys.

Links to Wikipedia Articles:
IZY - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IZY

Ouigo - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouigo

We already have that covered with the pacer trains on the Northern services!

 

[Edgeley]

We already have budget standard rolling stock operating on a lot of services.

 

[al78]

I can just imagine the UK version of budget trains.

 

[randyrippley]

After reading up about Ouigo and IZY (budget equivelants of TGV and Thalys respectivally), I wondered, could such an idea work in the Uk? The trains could be Standard Class throughout, with only advanced tickets being sold and less staff and no catering compared to usual long distance trains.

They would work several trips each day on busy routes between big cities e.g. London to Edinburgh.

Pricing would be only a fraction of existing journeys.

Links to Wikipedia Articles:
IZY - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IZY

Ouigo - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouigo

Isn't that why we have National Express coaches?

 

[goblinuser]

I can just imagine the UK version of budget trains.

View attachment 42634

Pacers have finally been replaced

 

[MG11]

We already have that covered with the pacer trains on the Northern services!

First East Coast is going to be 100% Standard Class.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think there's a Spanish version coming as well - Eva. http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...t-low-cost.html?sword_list[]=renfe&no_cache=1
They are sub-brands of the main operator, not in competition with them.
It's a way of combatting low-cost domestic flights with EasyJet and the rest, using their business model.
ORR would have to approve them here in terms of capacity and impact on the existing franchise finances.
They are all on high speed lines where there is spare capacity and the operators have plenty of spare (and quite old) rolling stock.
Ouigo operates from Marne-la-Vallée, not central Paris, so the London equivalent might be Ealing Broadway or Stratford.
It might work here on HS2, but it will be a long time before there is a surplus of high speed rolling stock.
Although we are scrapping 373s which are the sort of trains being used for Ouigo in France (retired TGVs).

 

[ainsworth74]

We may get to find out! The new open access operator First East Coast (running between Edinburgh and London) is expected to be no frills, standard class only and an average fare of £25. No idea if they're on track for May 2021 though...

 

[Mag_seven]

First East Coast is going to be 100% Standard Class.

Standard East Coast.

 

[AlterEgo]

We may get to find out! The new open access operator First East Coast (running between Edinburgh and London) is expected to be no frills, standard class only and an average fare of £25. No idea if they're on track for May 2021 though...

“On track”, hang your head!

Seriously though, I was passing through Vienna Hbf yesterday and noticed a couple of budget operators. I was having exactly the same thoughts about whether they’d be viable here.

 

[yorksrob]

First East Coast is going to be 100% Standard Class.

Yes, that's the one that sprang to mind for me - although its competing against low cost airlines, rather than coach services. I suppose that London - Midland services also serve a similar sort of role to places such as Crewe and Liverpool.

At the moment cheap advances fares on franchised services fulfil the role of competing with the coach. Whether there will be an opportunity for someone to buy a rake of mk3's and run them for a pittance on some long winding route might depend on whether the cheaper tiers of advanced fares continue to become scarcer.

Of course, the one route where I could see such a thing really taking off would be the channel tunnel ! Cheap tickets to continental destinations - not much in the way of competition at present (The Ozy train appeared to have a rather pleasing green livery !)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

We may get to find out! The new open access operator First East Coast (running between Edinburgh and London) is expected to be no frills, standard class only and an average fare of £25. No idea if they're on track for May 2021 though...

Are they going to use retired Hull Trains 180s? I can’t see a budget company ordering brand new trains, although I suppose easyJet and Ryanair have fairly new aircraft.

 

[SaveECRewards]

We may get to find out! The new open access operator First East Coast (running between Edinburgh and London) is expected to be no frills, standard class only and an average fare of £25. No idea if they're on track for May 2021 though...

I thought it wasn't supposed to be totally no frills. I'm sure I read somewhere that the single class train would have better legroom than the standard class offered on the VTEC mk 3 and 4 fleet.

 

[jopsuk]

Ouigo saves costs by not using central Paris stations, Izzy by going further on Lignes Classique. we don't really, at the moment, have equivalents that would be suitable and have capacity.

Well, to a certain extent. We do after all have three operators running London-Birmingham, with different fares- Virgin are the premium express service, London Northwestern Railway the more basic, stopping, service and Chiltern the alternative route and service offering. Greater Anglia provide a slower, slightly cheaper, Cambridge-London service.

 

[47802]

Well the problem with book in advance only trains, is that then further down the line it becomes the norm on the franchised services, not to have to book in advance is one of the prime advantages of UK train travel over Air and Coach for me,

 

[Western Lord]

Are they going to use retired Hull Trains 180s? I can’t see a budget company ordering brand new trains, although I suppose easyJet and Ryanair have fairly new aircraft.

EasyJet (200+ aircraft) and Ryanair (400+aircrfat) have fleets bought brand new and in the case of Ryanair regularly roll over the fleet to keep it young, basically when the aircraft are out of warranty they flog them and buy new ones. By placing large orders they get big discounts.

 

[ainsworth74]

“On track”, hang your head!

Are they going to use retired Hull Trains 180s? I can’t see a budget company ordering brand new trains, although I suppose easyJet and Ryanair have fairly new aircraft.

As far as I'm aware they bid on the basis of using five 125mph EMUs. Plus the operation might be a budget one but don't forget that it's being set up by First Group. They do have some financial resources to play with

First do appear to like IETs (they've ordered them for Hull Trains, GWR and TPE) but as far as I'm aware there has been nothing official about what sort of rolling stock they are looking for other than 125mph capable EMUs.

I thought it wasn't supposed to be totally no frills. I'm sure I read somewhere that the single class train would have better legroom than the standard class offered on the VTEC mk 3 and 4 fleet.

That rings a bell. Perhaps 'no frills' is the wrong phrase but I was trying to get at that it'll probably have less amenities than say you'd find on VTWC or VTEC. Probably not much beyond seat, power socket, toilets, wifi and some manner of catering. Probably no 'extras' like BEAM and certainly no First Class.

 

[Ianno87]

I'd argue that a few TOCs already go for the "budget" market on their existing franchised services. For example West Midlands/LNWR on London-Birmingham/Liverpool. Or Northern with Liverpool-Manchester/Manchester-Leeds Advances.

 

[Ianno87]

EasyJet (200+ aircraft) and Ryanair (400+aircrfat) have fleets bought brand new and in the case of Ryanair regularly roll over the fleet to keep it young, basically when the aircraft are out of warranty they flog them and buy new ones. By placing large orders they get big discounts.

easyJet started out with a couple of wet-leased aircraft and expanded from there. I also don't think they are quite as "budget" these days as Ryanair are.

 

[Agent_Squash]

First do appear to like IETs (they've ordered them for Hull Trains, GWR and TPE) but as far as I'm aware there has been nothing official about what sort of rolling stock they are looking for other than 125mph capable EMUs.

Is there any other 125mph capable bi-modes available, though?

 

[ainsworth74]

Is there any other 125mph capable bi-modes available, though?

London to Edinburgh is fully wired. They need EMUs.

 

[Agent_Squash]

London to Edinburgh is fully wired. They need EMUs.

Should have been clearer - I meant that First purchased IEPs for TPE, GWR and Hull Trains because of that requirement. I wouldn't be surprised if more 397s were purchased.

 

[bastien]

I take it Megatrain is no more, now SWT is gone?

 

[Ianno87]

London to Edinburgh is fully wired. They need EMUs.

Out of interest, so we know where First plans to stable/maintain their London-Edinburgh fleet?

 

[DanTrain]

London to Edinburgh is fully wired. They need EMUs.

Why can't they just use the 91s, they don't seem to be going anywhere fast?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I take it Megatrain is no more, now SWT is gone?

Still available on East Midlands Trains services, I believe.

 

[ainsworth74]

I wouldn't be surprised if more 397s were purchased.

If they're 125 capable (or can be made that way) then I certainly wouldn't rule it out!

Out of interest, so we know where First plans to stable/maintain their London-Edinburgh fleet?

I certainly aren't aware of any plans. I doubt anyone outside of First Group does to be honest as since the originally announcement back in 2016 I don't think there's really been anything publicly released regarding the operation.

Why can't they just use the 91s, they don't seem to be going anywhere fast?

The bid was on the basis of EMUs. Probably nothing stopping them trying to get their hands on some 225s and running them in shorter formations would probably allow them to meet a EMU like performance profile. But, again, as far as I'm aware there's not been anything publicly stated so other than First Group themselves who knows!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'd argue that a few TOCs already go for the "budget" market on their existing franchised services. For example West Midlands/LNWR on London-Birmingham/Liverpool. Or Northern with Liverpool-Manchester/Manchester-Leeds Advances.

All GB TOCs, even open access, take interavailable tickets, so they are part of the integrated rail network (except maybe Heathrow Express).
Ouigo and the "low cost" brigade only take their own tickets, so they are like charter trains, not open to other passengers, and are e-ticket only.
Their TGV seats are also high density, and with supplements for things like wifi and extra luggage.
Although accommodation is of course very variable here, there aren't different levels for "cheap advances" over "expensive walk on" fares.
Other foreign open access operators like Westbahn in Austria also have private fares, but the trains are nice Stadler EMUs and they allow buy on board.