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Pontefract Baghill & the Dearne Valley - is there any future?

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Senex

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This would presumably be at the expense of the route via Doncaster. I am not sure if it would be quicker, but I am sure that Doncaster would generate more passengers and interchange opportunities than Pontefract.
Experience of diverted XC trains suggests that the S&K route would come in at under 50 minutes between York and Sheffield, but that substantial work would be needed to make significant improvements to the times. Meanwhile, York to Sheffield with a 2-minute stop in Doncaster in 45 minutes is very easily possible if a decent path can be obtained (York-Doncaster needs 21 minutes, and Doncaster-Sheffield can be done in 19 minutes with the almost-unheard-of luxury of a clear road), and the occasional non-stop runs via Doncaster suggest that that is a faster route than the S&K could deliver without spending very many millions on it.
You could rebuild Rotherham Masborough at considerable expense, but would XC want to stop there, considering they don’t even stop at Meadowhall; and would TPE and Northern want an extra stop on their fast services to Cleethorpes and Hull? Certainly they wouldn’t swap it for the Meadowhall halt. Rotherham has suffered a lot both retail- and transport-wise by the construction of Meadowhall, but I fear it’s too late to change now.
Different contributors here seem to have very different ideas about what non-London inter-city services should be, with some of us wanting fast links between major centres (with IC supported by a good inter-regional service) and others wanting the equivalent of the old German Eilzug (E) trains, stopping in all significant towns along the route.
 
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Spartacus

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It's a start, maybe Northern could run a couple of Sheffield to Scarborough services via the Dearne Valley - one in the morning at around 7am with a return at 7pm.

Funny enough I was thinking the same thing, with the current services extending to Scarborough once there were enough units available, it'd certainly beat the 3 hour journey time from Sheffield to Scarborough via Hull, probably taking just over 2 hours, and giving the York - Scarborough line some much needed extra services too, that might get a bit of pressure off the ever busy single carriageway sections of the A64 too. In the new timetable they would even fit nicely between the TPEs too!
 

70014IronDuke

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An expensive Fresh air service which should be axed, No stations affected except Baghill but of course Pontefract has alternate stations and Services, last time I saw one of these services it was a case of spot the passenger. It annoys me when money is spent of this sort of nonsense when it could be better used on more important routes.
Except that is not what others report on this threas - and this despite the fact that what passes now as a 'service' is positively unnattractive to custom - heck, it's significnatly worse than that on the weekday Heart of Wales. If the line were given the same or similar service as it was before it was downgraded - ie six or seven trains a day (which I'd say is the minimum in 2018 for a service like this - basically 1 train per 2 hours throughout the day) one has to wonder what numbers would be like.
 

Ianno87

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Its a start, maybe Northern could run a couple of Sheffield to Scarborough services via the Dearne Valley - one in the morning at around 7am with a return at 7pm.

Harsh reality is that if there were a unit or two available at those times of day, strengthening a peak service into and out of Leeds is going to have a far superior case...
 

billio

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Funny enough I was thinking the same thing, with the current services extending to Scarborough once there were enough units available, it'd certainly beat the 3 hour journey time from Sheffield to Scarborough via Hull, probably taking just over 2 hours, and giving the York - Scarborough line some much needed extra services too, that might get a bit of pressure off the ever busy single carriageway sections of the A64 too. In the new timetable they would even fit nicely between the TPEs too!

If it was required, would it not be better to run a Sheffield - York - Scarborough service through Castleford, Wakefield, Barnsley and Meadowhall ?.
 

Spartacus

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If it was required, would it not be better to run a Sheffield - York - Scarborough service through Castleford, Wakefield, Barnsley and Meadowhall ?.

That'd need a whole new service though, with paths scarce enough into and out of Sheffield as it is, and there's the old one platform issue at Castleford too. Extending the Sheffield - Yorks with one extra early and late would barely put any strain on infrastructure capacity and would likely need less sets to do as well.
 

Class 170101

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A Through Platform at York might be a constraint for a Sheffield to Scarborough service as well.
 

Spartacus

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Platforms 3/4 and 5 don't see quite as much use as you'd sometimes think, which is one reason so much freight goes through the station instead of round the back. In the new timetable one of the Sheffield-Yorks is even shown to terminate in platform 4.
 

yorksrob

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Platforms 3/4 and 5 don't see quite as much use as you'd sometimes think, which is one reason so much freight goes through the station instead of round the back. In the new timetable one of the Sheffield-Yorks is even shown to terminate in platform 4.

Surely that's more to stop a freight conflict with all down lines - 3 always seems pretty busy when I'm there.

That said, there must be plenty of room in the up bay to terminate a regular service from Pontefract.
 

billio

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My wife travelled back from Birmingham to York this afternoon on a Cross-Country service which took this line - "the old route". She said they were passed by a 125. Is this a regular service or just something special for the weekend ?.
 

IanXC

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My wife travelled back from Birmingham to York this afternoon on a Cross-Country service which took this line - "the old route". She said they were passed by a 125. Is this a regular service or just something special for the weekend ?.

CrossCountry are diverted this way, and VTEC via Askern (which shares a good part of this route from Knottingley onwards) due to engineering works taking place between Shaftholme Junction and Hambleton South Junctions, closing the usual East Coast Mainline route from Doncaster to York and vice versa.
 

tbtc

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IF you need to have a regular Northern service from Sheffield to York then at least an occasional extension of the Sheffield - Castleford service through to Church Fenton and York wouldn't require any additional paths through Meadowhall. All of these suggestions for more frequent services via Monkhill rely on spare paths from Sheffield - Meadowhall - Swinton - Moorthorpe, which seem a little rare!

(I'm not saying that there are spare DMUs to permit a Sheffield - Castleford service to be extended to York - with another DMU doing a Castleford - Leeds shuttle in the current path - or that it'd be a desirable use of stock - just pointing out that the Meadowhall corridor doesn't necessarily have space for many more trains - especially given the "new" Nottingham - Bradford DMU will need a path from Sheffield to Moorthorpe)

This would presumably be at the expense of the route via Doncaster. I am not sure if it would be quicker, but I am sure that Doncaster would generate more passengers and interchange opportunities than Pontefract.

You could rebuild Rotherham Masborough at considerable expense, but would XC want to stop there, considering they don’t even stop at Meadowhall; and would TPE and Northern want an extra stop on their fast services to Cleethorpes and Hull? Certainly they wouldn’t swap it for the Meadowhall halt. Rotherham has suffered a lot both retail- and transport-wise by the construction of Meadowhall, but I fear it’s too late to change now.

Good points.

These kind of threads can be interesting but there's always an Opportunity Cost.

A Sheffield - Pontefract - York service means avoiding Doncaster, Wakefield and Leeds - all of which are going to generate a lot more passengers than Pontecarlo.

Now that Scottish services are often non-stop from Kings Cross to York, the need for XC to serve the Doncaster - York market is important.

Diverting XC via Pontefract would mean a reduction in Doncaster's service to Sheffield/ York/ Newcastle as well as removing Doncaster's service to Birmingham etc.

Harsh reality is that if there were a unit or two available at those times of day, strengthening a peak service into and out of Leeds is going to have a far superior case...

True.

I know that there are a lot of people on here who'd like a couple of DMUs to run a bi-hourly Sheffield - Pontefract - York and another DMU to run a bi-hourly Knottingley - Goole service and another DMU to run a bi-hourly service on the Brigg line and more services to Whitby/ Chathill/ etc but we have enough problems dealing with boring everyday demand (like in and out of Leeds).

Boring (compared to all of the reinvigorated branch lines!), but I think we should concentrate on tackling genuine problems before we start thinking about "nice to have" routes like day trips to Scarborough or Settle or wherever.
 

greyman42

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Regardless of the route, getting rid of the Pacers might attract more passengers ?
 

yorksrob

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I know that there are a lot of people on here who'd like a couple of DMUs to run a bi-hourly Sheffield - Pontefract - York and another DMU to run a bi-hourly Knottingley - Goole service and another DMU to run a bi-hourly service on the Brigg line and more services to Whitby/ Chathill/ etc but we have enough problems dealing with boring everyday demand (like in and out of Leeds).

Boring (compared to all of the reinvigorated branch lines!), but I think we should concentrate on tackling genuine problems before we start thinking about "nice to have" routes like day trips to Scarborough or Settle or wherever.

Perhaps we ought to keep back a few 144's to rejuvenate such lines. "tackling genuine problems" could be used as an excuse never to actually improve anything over what we have.

Its a waste of resources to have such routes and not use them to improve local journey opportunities.
 

johntea

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On a similar note, Northern seem to have problems with the ever growing popularity of the line between Leeds and Knottingley/Goole. (Always seem to be new housing developments popping up around Pontefract / Glasshoughton / Castleford!)

A few examples :-

07:04 Goole to Leeds is generally 2 units of 2 joined together, so 4 carriages but now very rarely much seating left by Castleford, I feel sorry for the poor residents of Woodlesford if the 07:38 Castleford to Leeds gets cancelled which it has been doing several times recently for some reason!

18:00 Leeds to Knottingley tonight was a 2 carriage 144, people left behind at Leeds

19:12 Leeds to Knottingley always seems to be a single carriage 150 which can get pretty cosy sometimes

Wonder what the May 2018 timetable changes and replacement of the pacers will do in terms of trying to level out the congestion on certain services
 

Bevan Price

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If it was required, would it not be better to run a Sheffield - York - Scarborough service through Castleford, Wakefield, Barnsley and Meadowhall ?.

There used to be such a service, but only on summer saturdays. Finished in the 1970s or early 1980s, I think.
 

BrianB

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In the late 70s and early 80s there were more local trains on this route and some of them loaded reasonably well they had 3 cars, the 074x from Sheffield and the 17xx return always running comfortably full. However, as someone who did passenger counting on those trains in the summer of 1980 for the DM Doncaster, most of them were between Sheffield and York or beyond, a lot of them rail staff travelling to York HQ. The first InterCity from Sheffield to York wasnt until 0900 then no better than 2 hourly after that and these DMUs just filled the gaps. With XC now half hourly there is just no need for these locals, running around empty and taking units that are needed elsewhere. Most people in Pontefract have no social or economic connection to Sheffield or York, so lets cull them once and for all. Rotherham Masborough was also a dead duck, so far from the town centre that local passenger counts were abysmal. The mere existence of a line in itself doesn't mean it necessarily fits current travel patterns.
 

Bantamzen

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I know that there are a lot of people on here who'd like a couple of DMUs to run a bi-hourly Sheffield - Pontefract - York and another DMU to run a bi-hourly Knottingley - Goole service and another DMU to run a bi-hourly service on the Brigg line and more services to Whitby/ Chathill/ etc but we have enough problems dealing with boring everyday demand (like in and out of Leeds).

Boring (compared to all of the reinvigorated branch lines!), but I think we should concentrate on tackling genuine problems before we start thinking about "nice to have" routes like day trips to Scarborough or Settle or wherever.

Not too many years ago many people would have been saying the same about lines like the Aire & Wharfe in West Yorkshire. Now NR & TOCs are trying to figure out the best way to shoehorn in extra capacity to satisfy the constantly growing demand. That's not to say there absolutely should be more use of these lines, but the argument that not enough people use them when the only services are near to useless for people that might actually want to use them isn't necessarily covering the whole picture. Much of the area east of Leeds is being eyed up for various potential projects, both for business and for housing. And with existing lines being close to or alongside such potential developments one eye has to be kept on the possibility of at least a useful increase in capacity. Things can and do change, as anyone still "enjoying" the drive into Leeds (for example) and trying to find somewhere to park that doesn't need a mortgage will surely testify. Indeed the PR1 & PR2 Park & Ride schemes are evidence that people are taking advantage of any scheme that avoids the drive into the centre. Perhaps two or three more runs a day on the lines in question might tap into such a market (as York is equally as nightmarish in commute into, as I'm sure is Sheffield).

Case in point below....

On a similar note, Northern seem to have problems with the ever growing popularity of the line between Leeds and Knottingley/Goole. (Always seem to be new housing developments popping up around Pontefract / Glasshoughton / Castleford!)

A few examples :-

07:04 Goole to Leeds is generally 2 units of 2 joined together, so 4 carriages but now very rarely much seating left by Castleford, I feel sorry for the poor residents of Woodlesford if the 07:38 Castleford to Leeds gets cancelled which it has been doing several times recently for some reason!

18:00 Leeds to Knottingley tonight was a 2 carriage 144, people left behind at Leeds

19:12 Leeds to Knottingley always seems to be a single carriage 150 which can get pretty cosy sometimes

Wonder what the May 2018 timetable changes and replacement of the pacers will do in terms of trying to level out the congestion on certain services
 

tbtc

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Perhaps we ought to keep back a few 144's to rejuvenate such lines. "tackling genuine problems" could be used as an excuse never to actually improve anything over what we have.

Its a waste of resources to have such routes and not use them to improve local journey opportunities.

Or, you could argue that (after huge increases in passenger numbers elsewhere on the network), it's a waste of resources to have such lightly used routes (and that the answer might be to give up on some of them)?

On a similar note, Northern seem to have problems with the ever growing popularity of the line between Leeds and Knottingley/Goole. (Always seem to be new housing developments popping up around Pontefract / Glasshoughton / Castleford!)

A few examples :-

07:04 Goole to Leeds is generally 2 units of 2 joined together, so 4 carriages but now very rarely much seating left by Castleford, I feel sorry for the poor residents of Woodlesford if the 07:38 Castleford to Leeds gets cancelled which it has been doing several times recently for some reason!

18:00 Leeds to Knottingley tonight was a 2 carriage 144, people left behind at Leeds

19:12 Leeds to Knottingley always seems to be a single carriage 150 which can get pretty cosy sometimes

Wonder what the May 2018 timetable changes and replacement of the pacers will do in terms of trying to level out the congestion on certain services

I agree that the Knottingley/ Pontefract/ Castleford corridor deserves better services to Leed - I still have (former) colleagues who do the commute and it's come a long way from that period around 2001 when Arriva gave up on trains (running replacement bus services for many months).

I've argued regularly that Leeds - Castleford - Knottingley should be half hourly (rather than the tedious dog-leg on the Leeds - Castleford - Barnsley service that gets overtaken by a semi-fast Leeds - Barnsley 158) - I'm all in favour of improved services through Castleford.

But, knowing people in the area, the demand is to Leeds - not to York/Sheffield. Look at the local bus/coach services. Mass transportation like heavy rail needs to focus on the busiest routes.

In the late 70s and early 80s there were more local trains on this route and some of them loaded reasonably well they had 3 cars, the 074x from Sheffield and the 17xx return always running comfortably full. However, as someone who did passenger counting on those trains in the summer of 1980 for the DM Doncaster, most of them were between Sheffield and York or beyond, a lot of them rail staff travelling to York HQ. The first InterCity from Sheffield to York wasnt until 0900 then no better than 2 hourly after that and these DMUs just filled the gaps. With XC now half hourly there is just no need for these locals, running around empty and taking units that are needed elsewhere. Most people in Pontefract have no social or economic connection to Sheffield or York, so lets cull them once and for all. Rotherham Masborough was also a dead duck, so far from the town centre that local passenger counts were abysmal. The mere existence of a line in itself doesn't mean it necessarily fits current travel patterns.

Fair points.

The old Cross Country service used to be terrible between Sheffield and York - randomly going via Doncaster *or* Leeds *or* both - some huge gaps in the timetable (as the service was mainly southbound in the morning and northbound in the evening).

Not too many years ago many people would have been saying the same about lines like the Aire & Wharfe in West Yorkshire. Now NR & TOCs are trying to figure out the best way to shoehorn in extra capacity to satisfy the constantly growing demand. That's not to say there absolutely should be more use of these lines, but the argument that not enough people use them when the only services are near to useless for people that might actually want to use them isn't necessarily covering the whole picture. Much of the area east of Leeds is being eyed up for various potential projects, both for business and for housing. And with existing lines being close to or alongside such potential developments one eye has to be kept on the possibility of at least a useful increase in capacity. Things can and do change, as anyone still "enjoying" the drive into Leeds (for example) and trying to find somewhere to park that doesn't need a mortgage will surely testify. Indeed the PR1 & PR2 Park & Ride schemes are evidence that people are taking advantage of any scheme that avoids the drive into the centre. Perhaps two or three more runs a day on the lines in question might tap into such a market (as York is equally as nightmarish in commute into, as I'm sure is Sheffield).

Case in point below....

The Aire/Wharfe Valley lines work well because they are simple routes that run into the heart of the cities that those towns have the strongest economic connection to (Leeds and Bradford).

At the moment, the significant demand from Castleford/ Pontefract/ Knottingley is into Leeds.

If you build several thousand more houses in the area east of Leeds then the significant demand will still be for services into Leeds.

As you say, that's where the traffic congestion is - people heading into Leeds.

Any DMU you find to run peak services from Pontefract into York/Sheffield is one that could be used as additional capacity on services from Knottingley/ Pontefract/ Castleford into Leeds.

Much as I love Sheffield, I'm realistic enough to accept that it's not a big draw to people in places like Pontefract - they want to have better services into their nearest big city and they ought to have them (rather than "nice to have" luxuries like increased services to York/ Sheffield).

If there were regular coaches from Knottingley/ Pontefract/ Castleford to Sheffield/ York then I'd say that it might be evidence of a market that rail wasn't serving very well. But the Forum habit of pointing to a lightly used line and saying "the fact that it has poor passenger numbers is evidence of why we should throw more resources at it" doesn't convince me, when we have enough problems meeting genuine demand on existing lines with finite numbers of DMUs.
 

yorkie

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Very odd. Your link is now showing only 2 trains a day in each direction.
The later train in both directions has been deleted; I hope it makes a comeback. I think it was 17:15 from York and I can't remember the Sheffield departure time.

I felt that the new times were a big improvement and I could see myself using the line more often. It is much more feasible to provide a useable service with 3 trains each way per day, than with only two trains each way per day.
 

Bantamzen

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The Aire/Wharfe Valley lines work well because they are simple routes that run into the heart of the cities that those towns have the strongest economic connection to (Leeds and Bradford).

At the moment, the significant demand from Castleford/ Pontefract/ Knottingley is into Leeds.

If you build several thousand more houses in the area east of Leeds then the significant demand will still be for services into Leeds.

As you say, that's where the traffic congestion is - people heading into Leeds.

Any DMU you find to run peak services from Pontefract into York/Sheffield is one that could be used as additional capacity on services from Knottingley/ Pontefract/ Castleford into Leeds.

Much as I love Sheffield, I'm realistic enough to accept that it's not a big draw to people in places like Pontefract - they want to have better services into their nearest big city and they ought to have them (rather than "nice to have" luxuries like increased services to York/ Sheffield).

If there were regular coaches from Knottingley/ Pontefract/ Castleford to Sheffield/ York then I'd say that it might be evidence of a market that rail wasn't serving very well. But the Forum habit of pointing to a lightly used line and saying "the fact that it has poor passenger numbers is evidence of why we should throw more resources at it" doesn't convince me, when we have enough problems meeting genuine demand on existing lines with finite numbers of DMUs.

I agree that Pontefract isn't going to feed any kind of demand by itself, I was thinking more about any York-Sheffield flow. There are certainly a lot of people moving between York-Leeds-Sheffield in the peaks, and this is with the XC fasts & Northern semis & stoppers. York-Sheffield does have the XCs via both Leeds and Doncaster, but if the latter get as rammed as the former then maybe there is a market for a direct service, maybe even only calling at Pontefract, Rotherham, Meadowhall to aid transit time and tempt passengers off the cattle trucks, erm sorry Voyagers as is starting to happen with the Northern Leeds-Sheffield semi-fasts. I'm not talking about lots but perhaps a couple more based around the peaks with the existing ones remaining for any leisure / shopping trips. Similar might be tried with the Leeds-Goole services as and when new projects start to go live in the Pontefract / Selby / Goole area.
 

yorksrob

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Or, you could argue that (after huge increases in passenger numbers elsewhere on the network), it's a waste of resources to have such lightly used routes (and that the answer might be to give up on some of them)?

That doesn't really seem like a logical argument to me. Surely if there have been huge increases of passengers elsewhere that's likely to suggest a widespread trend, meaning that such routes have more potential than they would otherwise have done.

Also, if we're maintaining a route for freight, we might as well make use of it to connect local communities.
 

Bevan Price

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I agree that the Knottingley/ Pontefract/ Castleford corridor deserves better services to Leed - I still have (former) colleagues who do the commute and it's come a long way from that period around 2001 when Arriva gave up on trains (running replacement bus services for many months).

I've argued regularly that Leeds - Castleford - Knottingley should be half hourly (rather than the tedious dog-leg on the Leeds - Castleford - Barnsley service that gets overtaken by a semi-fast Leeds - Barnsley 158) - I'm all in favour of improved services through Castleford.

But, knowing people in the area, the demand is to Leeds - not to York/Sheffield. Look at the local bus/coach services. Mass transportation like heavy rail needs to focus on the busiest routes.

.

There is a sort of "Chicken v. Egg / Which came first"? situation here.

"The service is lousy, so there is inevitably little demand" , or
"We assume there is little demand, so we provide a lousy service"

Yes, Leeds will always be the bigger attraction, especially for commuters, but York is a pretty good attraction for tourists & shoppers - some of whom would use trains if a useful service was available..

Th Dearne Valley route suffered badly due to mining subsidence & numerous speed restrictions until the 1980s, so services were abnormally slow. The mines are all gone now, so there is room to improve speed limits when track maintenance is due.
 
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Is it not possible that the reason people in pontefract work in Leeds and not York/Sheffield is that they can’t work in York/Sheffield because there are no transport links to them cities? They work in Leeds as they can actually physically get to Leeds. Is it not possible that if you provided a half decent service people would be tempted to look for jobs/got to university in these cities and might form links with these cities?
I agree Leeds-kottingley needs more capacity first and formemost, but I don’t think it’s out of the question in a few years time when dmu’s hopefully become available to up the service on the Dearne valley.
Keeping some 144’s, the 3 car units especially, would be excellent for this. Alas northern are barred from using them after 2020 which I think is a mistake. But that’s a completely different off topic thing altogether.
 

backontrack

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CrossCountry are diverted this way, and VTEC via Askern (which shares a good part of this route from Knottingley onwards) due to engineering works taking place between Shaftholme Junction and Hambleton South Junctions, closing the usual East Coast Mainline route from Doncaster to York and vice versa.
And I've been on a couple of TPexpress services that were diverted via Castleford and Monk Fryston..
 

InOban

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A regular service on the route could transform the Pontefract area, by giving the members of the households a choice of destinations for work education or even entertainment. Central Scotland (Linlithgow, Falkirk, Stirling etc) has thrived on that basis.
 

xotGD

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On a similar note, Northern seem to have problems with the ever growing popularity of the line between Leeds and Knottingley/Goole. (Always seem to be new housing developments popping up around Pontefract / Glasshoughton / Castleford!)

A few examples :-

07:04 Goole to Leeds is generally 2 units of 2 joined together, so 4 carriages but now very rarely much seating left by Castleford, I feel sorry for the poor residents of Woodlesford if the 07:38 Castleford to Leeds gets cancelled which it has been doing several times recently for some reason!

18:00 Leeds to Knottingley tonight was a 2 carriage 144, people left behind at Leeds

19:12 Leeds to Knottingley always seems to be a single carriage 150 which can get pretty cosy sometimes

Wonder what the May 2018 timetable changes and replacement of the pacers will do in terms of trying to level out the congestion on certain services
I understand that the Ponte Line is due to be served by 3-car 150s once everything settles down, which will offer an increase in capacity. Extending the Knottingley - Wakey to Leeds (is this still happening in May???) will also represent an improvement in service levels.

The 18:00 was also a 2-car bendy on Wednesday. It is a 3-car 144 >90% of the time, so an unusual couple of days.

Trying to get back on topic (ish), how about a York - Ponte - Wakey service? Could also serve a new station at Ferrybridge.
 

eastwestdivide

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Is it not possible that the reason people in pontefract work in Leeds and not York/Sheffield is that they can’t work in York/Sheffield because there are no transport links to them cities? They work in Leeds as they can actually physically get to Leeds. Is it not possible that if you provided a half decent service people would be tempted to look for jobs/got to university in these cities and might form links with these cities?
....
on the other side of the coin, Pontefract-Leeds is broadly half the distance of either Pontefract-Sheffield or Pontefract-York, and I suspect the jobs market in Leeds (and Wakefield, even closer in distance) is bigger than York's and possibly bigger than Sheffield's as well.
 
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