More government grants for green buses 2018/19

[northwichcat]

In total just under £20m is being available the biggest beneficiaries will be TfGM, Southampton City Council, TfL, TfWM and Coventry City Council - each getting £1.5m in 2018/2019. However, from the DfT table it's unclear how many new green buses each area will get as DfT give the total number of vehicles for 2017-2019 and neither does it make clear the size of the buses.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...-bus-industry-in-drive-to-improve-air-quality

 

[Dentonian]

In total just under £20m is being available the biggest beneficiaries will be TfGM, Southampton City Council, TfL, TfWM and Coventry City Council - each getting £1.5m in 2018/2019. However, from the DfT table it's unclear how many new green buses each area will get as DfT give the total number of vehicles for 2017-2019 and neither does it make clear the size of the buses.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...-bus-industry-in-drive-to-improve-air-quality

Presumably, TFGM's will be retrofitting, rather than towards new buses. They way things are, GM will be lucky to see 17 new buses, never mind 170 in 2018/9. That said, retrofitting a larger number is probably better overall anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

Presumably, TFGM's will be retrofitting, rather than towards new buses. They way things are, GM will be lucky to see 17 new buses, never mind 170 in 2018/9. That said, retrofitting a larger number is probably better overall anyway.

According to this site it will be 170 buses retrofitted in Greater Manchester

Transport for London was one of the biggest winners of the latest funding round, having been awarded £1.5m on top £1.5m last year to convert 500 buses to cleaner technologies.

Transport for Greater Manchester is also set to receive £3m by 2019 to convert 170 buses, while Transport for West Midlands will get £3m to clean up 364 buses.

https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3026317/councils-get-a-funding-bump-to-clean-up-bus-emissions

 

[AM9]

According to this site it will be 170 buses retrofitted in Greater Manchester



https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3026317/councils-get-a-funding-bump-to-clean-up-bus-emissions

So just what "cleaner technologies" does £3000 per bus buy?

 

[winston270twm]

So just what "cleaner technologies" does £3000 per bus buy?

I expect it will contribute towards Eminox Euro 6 exhaust upgrades to existing fleets:

As per this NXWM video:

 

[Stan Drews]

Presumably, TFGM's will be retrofitting, rather than towards new buses. They way things are, GM will be lucky to see 17 new buses, never mind 170 in 2018/9. That said, retrofitting a larger number is probably better overall anyway.

Haven't Transdev already announced 20 new buses this year, for their recently acquired Rosso operations?

 

[Hophead]

Any ideas why both West Yorkshire Combined Authority & Leeds City Council are winners here?

 

[Dentonian]

Haven't Transdev already announced 20 new buses this year, for their recently acquired Rosso operations?

I had forgotten, but its not technically GM. I do concede they are rumoured to run mainly on routes into GM, but most mileage will be in Lancashire. Otherwise, Stagecoach have just got the five E200s at Stockport - albeit Middleton's 22 E400s were technically this year's order delivered early. I can't see much from Stagecoach given the current "political" situation, and they will point out that they have invested heavily in the period up to 2016. Similarly, there is less chance than ever that either First or Arriva will put new buses into GM. That only leaves Rotala as commercial operators - maybe a little early for hem to invest in brand new stock, though recent events might accelerate those plans. For the rest, they mainly run contracts so it will depend on changes in that market.

 

[edwin_m]

Nottingham City Transport has announced funding for 23 more biogas double deckers, which I think were planned last year as they talked at the time about buying 53 and that's the number after the new order.
https://www.nctx.co.uk/2018/02/23-more-gas-buses-coming-soon/

A further 23 Bio-Gas double deck buses will be hitting Nottingham’s streets from this Spring, as part of a £16.8m investment by Nottingham City Transport in the greenest buses on the road!

£12.4m of the investment comes from NCT, with £4.4m from The Office of Low Emission Vehicles (OLEV) and has covered the cost of 53 Bio-Gas buses and installing gas fuelling facilities at the Parliament Street Bus Garage.

These latest 23 Bio-Gas buses will be operating on Sky Blue 45 and Orange 36 and join the existing 30 super environmentally friendly Bio-Gas buses operated by NCT, which have been running on Green 6, 10; Lilac 24, 25 and Red 44 since last May.

 

[507021]

The Liverpool City Region also received a large grant, which is to be shared between Arriva, Stagecoach, Halton Transport and Cumfybus.

A total of 149 buses will be upgraded to Euro VI emissions standards, although I don't know which ones at the moment.

 

[northwichcat]

I had forgotten, but its not technically GM. I do concede they are rumoured to run mainly on routes into GM, but most mileage will be in Lancashire. Otherwise, Stagecoach have just got the five E200s at Stockport - albeit Middleton's 22 E400s were technically this year's order delivered early.

The vehicle numbers are for 2017 to 2019 as I stated in the original post and as clarified in a later post it will be to make 170 existing buses more environmentally friendly, rather than purchase new buses like money from previous government awards has been used for.

There's loads of cross boundary routes using vehicles of a variety of different ages and not all vehicles allocated to Greater Manchester depots are used on GM routes and some allocated to depots outside GM are used on GM routes e.g. Arriva buses allocated to Winsford depot appear in Manchester city centre. Network Warrington have recently agreed to purchase new Enviros for routes including Altrincham-Warrington, while a couple of new Enviros have appeared at MCT. There are also number of contract changes upcoming (both TfGM and non-TfGM which extend in to GM) it will likely see changes - for instance Selwyns will need to acquire additional vehicles for their new 391/392 contract, unless they use coaches or deckers (unlikely.)

 

[Dentonian]

There's loads of cross boundary routes using vehicles of a variety of different ages and not all vehicles allocated to Greater Manchester depots are used on GM routes and some allocated to depots outside GM are used on GM routes e.g. Arriva buses allocated to Winsford depot appear in Manchester city centre. Network Warrington have recently agreed to purchase new Enviros for routes including Altrincham-Warrington, while a couple of new Enviros have appeared at MCT. There are also number of contract changes upcoming (both TfGM and non-TfGM which extend in to GM) it will likely see changes - for instance Selwyns will need to acquire additional vehicles for their new 391/392 contract, unless they use coaches or deckers (unlikely.)

Network Warrington would be a similar argument as Transdev Rosso in that only a minority of the mileage for the 5/35 (or whatever's left after 8th April) is in GM. Similarly, if they are allocated to Leigh routes. Arriva Winsford are increasingly rare in GM and besides what are their newest buses? 6 year old Pulsars that have recently left GM (Wythenshawe). I've read somewhere that MCT's two Enviro200s are short term rentals, and Selwyns may/may not be brand new vehicles.

More generally, Arriva "North West" only seem to put new buses on Merseyside nowadays, and the continuing trend for cuts suggest both Arriva and First may not be in GM for much longer anyway - so are hardly likely to start re-investing now.

 

[northwichcat]

Network Warrington would be a similar argument as Transdev Rosso in that only a minority of the mileage for the 5/35 (or whatever's left after 8th April) is in GM. Similarly, if they are allocated to Leigh routes. Arriva Winsford are increasingly rare in GM and besides what are their newest buses? 6 year old Pulsars that have recently left GM (Wythenshawe). I've read somewhere that MCT's two Enviro200s are short term rentals, and Selwyns may/may not be brand new vehicles.

More generally, Arriva "North West" only seem to put new buses on Merseyside nowadays, and the continuing trend for cuts suggest both Arriva and First may not be in GM for much longer anyway - so are hardly likely to start re-investing now.

Network Warrington are taking over the 360 journeys between Wigan and Newton-le-Willows from Stagecoach/Diamond soon so they'll be providing more services in GM not less.

I'm not sure why you think Arriva Winsford are 'increasingly rare' in Manchester, given the 130 route used to be run from Wythenshawe but is now run from Macclesfield (an outstation of the Winsford depot) I say the reverse is true.

New isn't always better. The regular vehicles for both the Arriva 130 and 263 routes have been refurbished to a high standard and have wi-fi, USB charging points and leather seats, features you don't see on the 66 reg Enviro 200 usually used on the 200 service currently.

Yes we don't know if Selwyns will use new vehicles but you seem to be guessing that there won't be many new vehicles for Greater Manchester opposed to guessing which routes may get new vehicles, or in other words you're being pessimistic.

 

[Dentonian]

Network Warrington are taking over the 360 journeys between Wigan and Newton-le-Willows from Stagecoach/Diamond soon so they'll be providing more services in GM not less.

I'm not sure why you think Arriva Winsford are 'increasingly rare' in Manchester, given the 130 route used to be run from Wythenshawe but is now run from Macclesfield (an outstation of the Winsford depot) I say the reverse is true.

New isn't always better. The regular vehicles for both the Arriva 130 and 263 routes have been refurbished to a high standard and have wi-fi, USB charging points and leather seats, features you don't see on the 66 reg Enviro 200 usually used on the 200 service currently.

Yes we don't know if Selwyns will use new vehicles but you seem to be guessing that there won't be many new vehicles for Greater Manchester opposed to guessing which routes may get new vehicles, or in other words you're being pessimistic.

I think you are clutching at straws. Stagecoach/Diamond only run tendered evening/Sunday services, so we aren't even talking PVR. What I meant was the 130 was being slowly reduced and so you the practical change is just less 61 reg buses in GM, and 61 is hardly new!

The original comment (throw away as "17" just happened to be 170 with the trailing zero removed) simply referred to an overall lack of investment. There are roundly 2000 buses running in/across GM, which with a natural service life of around 15 years suggest investment should be about 133 buses a year (266 in 2017/8 & 2018/9 combined), so to say there will be a couple here and 5 there hardly detracts from my point.

 

[northwichcat]

The original comment (throw away as "17" just happened to be 170 with the trailing zero removed) simply referred to an overall lack of investment. There are roundly 2000 buses running in/across GM, which with a natural service life of around 15 years suggest investment should be about 133 buses a year (266 in 2017/8 & 2018/9 combined), so to say there will be a couple here and 5 there hardly detracts from my point.

I think you'll find the Diamond Bus 2003 registered vehicles will keep going for a good few years yet despite being almost 15 years old, some operators are only beginning with withdraw W reg buses. First Bus (in most areas) wouldn't even consider a 15 year bus as being near the end of it's life, they'll keep it going for 20+ years if possible and if you recall Greater Manchester Buses you'll realise the average bus age in Manchester is now much lower than it used to be. Due to TfL requirements any big operator who has a London presence finishes up with modernish double deckers they can no longer use in London so every city with a big operator gets some cascaded buses from London (even Arriva in Liverpool) and very few cities don't get cascaded vehicles to compliment new vehicles.

61 is hardly new

And? Like I said Arriva have given some of their buses high specification refurbishment, which means passengers who travel on them can have a more pleasant travelling experience than they would get on a brand new bus fitted to a lower specification, I even gave you an example of a specific bus where that is the case (the 66 reg Enviro was brand new when it was introduced on the 200.) 61 reg buses aren't in need of withdrawal for a very long time yet, even if they aren't fresh off the production line.

 

[Dentonian]

I think you'll find the Diamond Bus 2003 registered vehicles will keep going for a good few years yet despite being almost 15 years old, some operators are only beginning with withdraw W reg buses. First Bus (in most areas) wouldn't even consider a 15 year bus as being near the end of it's life, they'll keep it going for 20+ years if possible and if you recall Greater Manchester Buses you'll realise the average bus age in Manchester is now much lower than it used to be. Due to TfL requirements any big operator who has a London presence finishes up with modernish double deckers they can no longer use in London so every city with a big operator gets some cascaded buses from London (even Arriva in Liverpool) and very few cities don't get cascaded vehicles to compliment new vehicles.



And? Like I said Arriva have given some of their buses high specification refurbishment, which means passengers who travel on them can have a more pleasant travelling experience than they would get on a brand new bus fitted to a lower specification, I even gave you an example of a specific bus where that is the case (the 66 reg Enviro was brand new when it was introduced on the 200.) 61 reg buses aren't in need of withdrawal for a very long time yet, even if they aren't fresh off the production line.

Please; just read my second paragraph again! Even at 20 years old, its 100 a year and the Tender limit remains 15. Diamond's buses might be in reasonable nick, but apart from the Presidents at Rusholme, First's 12+ year old buses are junk.

As for comparing with GMBuses, that's just oppurtunistic given the financial restrictions they had, and represents just a few years in history. With such a selective narrow window of history, I'll bet the football team you support (if any) plays heir home matches in red...........irrespective of which end of the East Lancs that is.

 

[northwichcat]

GM Buses existed for over 10 years. Yet some private operators haven't lasted 5 years.

You argued in another thread that very few GM services are subsided, now you're arguing that 15 years should be the cut off for all buses because TfGM impose a 15 year rule on tendered services, until bus franchising happens 20 year old buses can and will be used on commercial services.

Let's face you like to have a good old moan about GM bus services and like to make out you have it bad in GM, when the reality is GM has excellent bus services and very high investment in bus services compared to most of the UK. You might wish to re-read the original post GM is getting a £3m grant over 24 months, most areas aren't getting a penny from that scheme.

 

[Dentonian]

GM Buses existed for over 10 years. Yet some private operators haven't lasted 5 years.

You argued in another thread that very few GM services are subsided, now you're arguing that 15 years should be the cut off for all buses because TfGM impose a 15 year rule on tendered services, until bus franchising happens 20 year old buses can and will be used on commercial services.

Let's face you like to have a good old moan about GM bus services and like to make out you have it bad in GM, when the reality is GM has excellent bus services and very high investment in bus services compared to most of the UK. You might wish to re-read the original post GM is getting a £3m grant over 24 months, most areas aren't getting a penny from that scheme.

GM Buses lasted for 7 years and 1 month! I used the TFGM tender cut off as an illustration, noting that the remaining buses over 15 years old are generally in a poor state. Investment both public and private fluctuates, with some winners one year and another another year. However, there is a growing trend for First to only invest in Leeds and Bristol and Arriva to only invest in West Yorkshire, Merseyside and one or two other places.

As regards "excellent" bus services, this depends on how it is measured and can, of course, vary between very localised areas. But, the majority of regular bus users in GM would certainly not agree with you. Stagecoach investment has been good until recently, but that has now slowed down. This thread specifically talks about investment, but not about other factors, such as service levels, punctuality, reliability, stability and fares. In those measures, the majority of services are well below excellent and are declining. And whilst those in the shires won't accept he argument, buses are far more important to the car less. The areas of GM seeing the biggest decline are often those with lowest car ownership levels and even the tram loving Manchester City Council concede that there are around 360,000 households in GM without access to private transport. Unlike, the constituencies of the Transport Secretary, the Chancellor (and ex Transport secretary) and the new Minister for buses, who's local authorities are all in the top 12 (out of 348) for car ownership.

 

[northwichcat]

GM Buses lasted for 7 years and 1 month!

It was formed in 1986, split in to two divisions in late 1993 and they were sold in 1996. If you consider GM Buses North/South to be separate then presumably you think First Greater Manchester (following the 2012 restructure) are not as First Manchester who purchased GM Buses North.

However, there is a growing trend for First to only invest in Leeds and Bristol and Arriva to only invest in West Yorkshire, Merseyside and one or two other places.

It seems you think investment means brand new buses and no brand new buses means no investment. In the Macclesfield and Northwich areas Arriva have replaced modern Solo SRs with smaller cheaper to run (brand new) Mercedes minibuses which can be quite a squeeze for passengers at time, I'm sure most passengers would have preferred to have larger 'old' buses upgraded to Sapphire standard like Arriva have done with various Greater Manchester routes.

As regards "excellent" bus services, this depends on how it is measured and can, of course, vary between very localised areas. But, the majority of regular bus users in GM would certainly not agree with you.

I'm sure those living in Greater Manchester would prefer to keep buses how they are than to cut them back to service levels seen in Derbyshire, Lancashire and Cheshire. From April the village of High Legh won't have any bus services (currently they get just 3 return workings per day), yet just a few miles up the road smaller villages in Trafford will retain hourly bus services and overall Trafford has high car ownership.

Anyway this thread is supposed to be about green bus grants and GM is getting £3m over 2 years for that purpose - so lots of money being invested in Greater Manchester buses for that purpose.

 

[Dentonian]

It was formed in 1986, split in to two divisions in late 1993 and they were sold in 1996. If you consider GM Buses North/South to be separate then presumably you think First Greater Manchester (following the 2012 restructure) are not as First Manchester who purchased GM Buses North.



It seems you think investment means brand new buses and no brand new buses means no investment. In the Macclesfield and Northwich areas Arriva have replaced modern Solo SRs with smaller cheaper to run (brand new) Mercedes minibuses which can be quite a squeeze for passengers at time, I'm sure most passengers would have preferred to have larger 'old' buses upgraded to Sapphire standard like Arriva have done with various Greater Manchester routes.



I'm sure those living in Greater Manchester would prefer to keep buses how they are than to cut them back to service levels seen in Derbyshire, Lancashire and Cheshire. From April the village of High Legh won't have any bus services (currently they get just 3 return workings per day), yet just a few miles up the road smaller villages in Trafford will retain hourly bus services and overall Trafford has high car ownership.

Anyway this thread is supposed to be about green bus grants and GM is getting £3m over 2 years for that purpose - so lots of money being invested in Greater Manchester buses for that purpose.

To respond by paragraph.

1. Of course, GMBN & GMS Buses were separate companies! Then Secretary of State MacGregor demanded they be split and sold seperately. In fact, he originally threatened to march in and force GMB to be split into four. Both went to separate ESOPs on 13th December 1993, who in turn sold out to First and Stagecoach respectively in Spring 1996. Not sure of the relevance of First's rebranding (which is all it was) in 2012 has to do with anything.

2. At the risk of repeating myself, having wryly commented on the figure of 170 being massive in terms of new buses, I did go on to say that Retrofitting a larger number of vehicles would probably make more sense.

3. How many of High Legh's 1200 population do not have access to private transport? Indeed, same goes for the "smaller villages in Trafford"? The argument is not about the well heeled areas of Trafford - who don't want to be part of GM, anyway!!! - its about the
hundreds of thousands of car-less, working age adults living in GM as a whole, paying bus fares constantly increasing three times inflation, and most seeing a deterioration in service whether measured in service levels, punctuality, journey times, seat comfort.

4. See 2.

 

[northwichcat]

Of course, GMBN & GMS Buses were separate companies!

Just checked exactly what happened regarding GM Buses

May 1986 - Greater Manchester Buses Limited registered as a business by GMPTE.
May 1993 - Greater Manchester Buses Limited has a name change approved so officially they are now Greater Manchester Buses North Limited
December 1993 - Greater Manchester Buses South Limited registered as a business by GMPTE.
From April 1994 - Board changes start occurring at both companies and GMB South becomes an active business.
June 1996 - Change in ownership at Greater Manchester Buses North Limited (First Group takeover)

So GM Buses was formed in 1986, had it's name changed in 1993 ahead of losing the southern routes and was sold to First Group in 1996. So you're right about them being separate companies but incorrect about GM Buses only lasting 7 years as GM Buses North was nothing more than a re-brand of GM Buses, even if they didn't run anywhere near as many routes.

How many of High Legh's 1200 population do not have access to private transport? Indeed, same goes for the "smaller villages in Trafford"? The argument is not about the well heeled areas of Trafford - who don't want to be part of GM, anyway

Like you said yourself not that long ago there are a lot of commercial routes in Greater Manchester, having a number of people without access to cars allows those commercial operations to be a success. However, what about the areas where a small number of people who don't have access to cars live? If they live in a Greater Manchester they're well looked after as TfGM ensures there's subsided bus services. How many people board and alight the late 288 services at Hale Barnes? I can tell you it's been 0 when I've been on them but if there was a car owner in Hale Barnes who got prescribed medication meaning they can't drive for a few weeks then they're not stuck as TfGM fund a late bus service. Most local authorities don't fund bus services on the off chance someone might need them but TfGM do seem to. In contrast for Cheshire East's bus consultation they got a few comments from people saying that the proposed 27 route changes would mean they would have to leave their job, change their hours or relocate. What was Cheshire East's response? The number of people it affects isn't high enough to not justify going ahead with the subsidy cut.

Anyway do you have anything to say about the £3m for greener buses in Greater Manchester or anything about other areas which got grants or which missed out?

 

[Dentonian]

Just checked exactly what happened regarding GM Buses

May 1986 - Greater Manchester Buses Limited registered as a business by GMPTE.
May 1993 - Greater Manchester Buses Limited has a name change approved so officially they are now Greater Manchester Buses North Limited
December 1993 - Greater Manchester Buses South Limited registered as a business by GMPTE.
From April 1994 - Board changes start occurring at both companies and GMB South becomes an active business.
June 1996 - Change in ownership at Greater Manchester Buses North Limited (First Group takeover)

So GM Buses was formed in 1986, had it's name changed in 1993 ahead of losing the southern routes and was sold to First Group in 1996. So you're right about them being separate companies but incorrect about GM Buses only lasting 7 years as GM Buses North was nothing more than a re-brand of GM Buses, even if they didn't run anywhere near as many routes.



Like you said yourself not that long ago there are a lot of commercial routes in Greater Manchester, having a number of people without access to cars allows those commercial operations to be a success. However, what about the areas where a small number of people who don't have access to cars live? If they live in a Greater Manchester they're well looked after as TfGM ensures there's subsided bus services. How many people board and alight the late 288 services at Hale Barnes? I can tell you it's been 0 when I've been on them but if there was a car owner in Hale Barnes who got prescribed medication meaning they can't drive for a few weeks then they're not stuck as TfGM fund a late bus service. Most local authorities don't fund bus services on the off chance someone might need them but TfGM do seem to. In contrast for Cheshire East's bus consultation they got a few comments from people saying that the proposed 27 route changes would mean they would have to leave their job, change their hours or relocate. What was Cheshire East's response? The number of people it affects isn't high enough to not justify going ahead with the subsidy cut.

Anyway do you have anything to say about the £3m for greener buses in Greater Manchester or anything about other areas which got grants or which missed out?

Not interested in business technicalities and licence changes to avoid the cost of two new licences, rather than one amended and one new. In the real world outside Companies House, myself and 109 other people were made redundant by GM Buses from 12 December 1993 on the basis the company ceased to exist and was being replaced by *two seperate* companies; GM Buses South Ltd (who's buses were branded GMS Buses) and GM Buses North Ltd (later branded as GM Buses).

As I understand it, TFGM funding is based on cost per passenger, and if that figure is exceeded the service is withdrawn. However, it could be that its very difficult to estimate loadings because by their nature they vary day to day. It doesn't help that I live in an area where 99% of buses are commercially run, and I have never been aware of any local consultation on service changes/cuts involving either commercial or tendered services in all the 31 years of Deregulation.

As I said before regarding the grants; GM might be "winners" this time round, but losers another time. Besides, did Cheshire East or other Shire counties bid for a share? Probably of much more relevance is that there are moves to either reduce emissions from buses, or ban them from Manchester and other major city centres, so these grants might be address that particular problem. The fact that, of the top ten Pollution "hotspots" in GM only *one* has more than 4 peak buses per hour running through it (Hulme), is irrelevant, as its all about image and media/political power.

 

[northwichcat]

Not interested in business technicalities and licence changes to avoid the cost of two new licences, rather than one amended and one new. In the real world outside Companies House, myself and 109 other people were made redundant by GM Buses from 12 December 1993 on the basis the company ceased to exist and was being replaced by *two seperate* companies; GM Buses South Ltd (who's buses were branded GMS Buses) and GM Buses North Ltd (later branded as GM Buses).

Those would have been the days before TUPE existed, so without making people redundant GM Buses South would have had no employees and GM Buses North would have had far too many. You rejected the idea that First Greater Manchester were different to First Manchester, despite having absorbed Chester City Transport services in to the business and having sold some of the former GMB North operations to Stagecoach. If you don't care what Companies House records say then it's just the same as GMB becoming GMB North, the real difference is you weren't affected by it.

Besides, did Cheshire East or other Shire counties bid for a share?

Warrington placed a bid and were unsuccessful. I've asked Cheshire West, Cheshire East and Halton if they placed bids but haven't received any responses.