Virgin Trains East Coast franchise to end 24 June 2018 and is temporarily re-nationalised

[Tetchytyke]

I was surprised at the Brand Value report that showed an increase for VM, but there you go.

Most of those brand value reports are a load of rubbish, to be quite honest. Same with SkyTrax, etc.

Virgin Media are still markedly lower than their competitors in the sector, though.

Spandau v SpeedcoreThrash Metal

Never understood who thought that was a good idea. If Tony Hadley was playing in my back yard I'd shut the curtains and turn the telly up.

 

[Marklund]

It's not the "bunch of spotters" they need to be worried about. A lot of people in the past had considered Virgin had brand value but they've devalued this by going into less glamorous industries that weren't known for the best customer services (e.g. Virgin Media which was originally two companies nicknames Teleworst and NThell due to their reputation for poor service). If VTEC had used the Virgin brand, delivered quality and didn't go overboard with trying to be in your face I'm sure most people would be happy with the VTEC brand.

That was my point, and unless anyone can point to a decent study that shows where the Virgin Brand is at the moment, then it's all subjective.
Relying on a railway forum, and a highly niche twitter account and poll isn't a fair sample. I've shown the Brand Finance study. It's here, and has shown VM have improved.

I don't like Virgin, or their brand, but you have to be objective. I stand by what I've posted, relying on the opinions here isn't reflective of the general public.

 

[Marklund]

Most of those brand value reports are a load of rubbish, to be quite honest. Same with SkyTrax, etc.

Virgin Media are still markedly lower than their competitors in the sector, though.

Show me figures, and I'll agree.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Show me figures, and I'll agree.

Virgin Media are well below their phone operator competitors.

As for methodology, of course it's commercially confidential information, so who knows what they come up with. But Rio Tinto apparently has a stronger brand value in the UK than, among others, Rolls Royce, Next, Debenhams, Primark and Waitrose. Hmm. Ask 100 people on the street and 99 of them won't know who Rio Tinto are and the 100th will only know because of the fraud investigation into them.

 

[Marklund]

Still no data...

 

[SaveECRewards]

That was my point, and unless anyone can point to a decent study that shows where the Virgin Brand is at the moment, then it's all subjective.
Relying on a railway forum, and a highly niche twitter account and poll isn't a fair sample. I've shown the Brand Finance study. It's here, and has shown VM have improved.

I don't like Virgin, or their brand, but you have to be objective. I stand by what I've posted, relying on the opinions here isn't reflective of the general public.

True, it's not reflective of the general public, but it is a fairly static number of people, most of the SECR Twitter followers have been there since the beginning so it does reflect the changing opinions of a particular group. The 2016 poll delighted the VTEC marketing director, he thought the SECR followers would be more likely than the general public to have a negative view on VTEC. Now most of them do have a negative view of VTEC.

As for the general public VTEC complaints have been rising in 2017, they had dropped in 2016.

For the big brand overall suing the NHS certainly isn't going to help. I think everyone knows how much the NHS is appreciated in the UK. I was reminded of that when I was watching the Manchester Pride parade and the loudest cheer was when the NHS workers appeared. Virgin had pretty much not bothered with that event, I think there was a few Virgin Media people walking with a Virgin banner. I never saw them at Newcastle Pride either - compared to the amazing effort they put in at the 2015 event where they lit up Newcastle station.

East Coast was named as a superbrand in 2013 and 2014 so you don't have to be called Virgin to be recognised. Whether it's meaningful or not I'd tend to it being meaningless, although I did think EC did a great job promoting a previously unknown brand (e.g. with their Sky 1 show)

 

[Marklund]

As for the general public VTEC complaints have been rising in 2017, they had dropped in 2016.

Excellent, hard data. Thanks.

 

[Whistler40145]

I wonder if First Group might apply for the Franchise?

 

[TUC]

Can I point out that there's a whole load of passengers who really couldn't care less about the loyalty scheme. It really isn't the main issue and, even for most people who used it, it really is ancient history.

 

[jon0844]

That’s an interesting perspective. It is difficult to see what Virgin’s brand brings to the railways. I don’t think many people associate it with flying to New York.

Perhaps for a while a 390 with an airline-style interior may have had people associating Virgin with air travel, but however much you do to an HST or Mk4 you aren't going to have the same result (of course, there's arguably more space but the 390s DO look pretty swish, at least in first class).

In recent years, Virgin Media has got a bad rep in many areas and what other Virgin brands are there that are really up there as they were? Plus Richard Branson is a little toxic as the face of the brand, but then taking legal action against the NHS/Government. A PR disaster that is rather odd for him, even if he was justified (I have no idea as I never really knew what he did/didn't do - but neither did a lot of other people who just thought 'No, you don't hurt the NHS').

 

[jon0844]

Virgin Hyperloop

Elon Musk is a genius/mad scientist, but even Elon seems to have distanced himself from Hyperloop as there are loads of things to sort out before this ever becomes a thing, if it even becomes a thing at all.

I am surprised Richard Branson got involved. I know he's done crazy things before, but it almost seems like he believed the hype without doing proper research. Or maybe he's clever to just get the publicity for a minor investment and doesn't care what happens.

 

[jon0844]

Personally I think most teenagers will probably know who he is, but I imagine many think he's like this embarrassing grandad who tries to be cool in front of their friends.

The Virgin Care situation, and his reputation for hiring dancing girls, or glamour models going topless (yes, he really did this in the past) probably mean that many will see him as a dinosaur now, and if he tried any of his old tricks today, he'd find himself subject to total outrage.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It really isn't the main issue

Nobody says it is the main issue.

But it was and is symptomatic of Stagecoach's overall attitude, taking the high-spenders for granted. How's that approach working for them?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Still no data

What data do you want? That the methodology- that's a secret- isn't exactly rigorous?

Would the fact that OFCOM report that Virgin Media have the highest proportion of broadband complaints (16% of customers) help?

 

[pt_mad]

The Virgin Care situation, and his reputation for hiring dancing girls, or glamour models going topless (yes, he really did this in the past) probably mean that many will see him as a dinosaur now, and if he tried any of his old tricks today, he'd find himself subject to total outrage.

But they still have a lot of perfectly groomed best looking people in the station type hosts which step off from the first class and from the shop when the train arrives.

Do they have an airline style dress hair and makeup policy for hosts?

Train managers don't seem to be of this appearance, more casual. Same at stations, more casual.

 

[Chrism20]

I wonder if First Group might apply for the Franchise?

A colleague joked the other day that after the WC debacle and all the noise that was made that they would find it very funny if the government approached First to run it in the meantime until it was re-let.

But yes, I’d imagine they would be first to throw their hat into the ring.

 

[DenmarkRail]

A colleague joked the other day that after the WC debacle and all the noise that was made that they would find it very funny if the government approached First to run it in the meantime until it was re-let.

But yes, I’d imagine they would be first to throw their hat into the ring.

I'd like to see Arriva get their hands on a refined Intercity network. I understand that they have XC, but if they had EC, then they could run a much more structured network, which doesn't spur off at random places, or doesn't include any regional bits. It would also be interesting to see how it would be branded under Arriva -> A ICE style brand would be nice.

 

[yorksrob]

I'd like to see Arriva get their hands on a refined Intercity network. I understand that they have XC, but if they had EC, then they could run a much more structured network, which doesn't spur off at random places, or doesn't include any regional bits. It would also be interesting to see how it would be branded under Arriva -> A ICE style brand would be nice.

Hmm. I'm not sure I'd be thrilled by the prospect.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Hmm. I'm not sure I'd be thrilled by the prospect.

I know their history on other franchises, isn't the best, but when you look at it, they aren't that bad... I actually hold Arriva in very high regard, and I think that their track record shows good progress. Would love to see them team up with a good European operator, who is new to the UK market. Maybe DSB, or SJ. They operate very respectable services in their countries.

-Chiltern: Constantly voted best operator in Britain
-Grand Central: Also, a highly regarded franchise
-Northern: Lots of new stock, on route
-CrossCountry: A very hard franchise to get right, given the way Virgin got the stock
-Arriva TW: Failed due to lack of Welsh Government funding

 

[Agent_Squash]

-Northern: Lots of new stock, on route
-CrossCountry: A very hard franchise to get right, given the way Virgin got the stock
-Arriva TW: Failed due to lack of Welsh Government funding

We have a privatised railway; therefore, if Arriva wants to improve XC/ATW, they have the ability to do so at their own prerogative. A lack of WAG funding or Virgin’s rolling stock choices are just excuses.

 

[pt_mad]

Is it not worth contemplating that a Jeremy Corbyn government could get into power before the East Coast Partnership ever starts, and thus, possibly may never happen?

 

[cjmillsnun]

What data do you want? That the methodology- that's a secret- isn't exactly rigorous?

Would the fact that OFCOM report that Virgin Media have the highest proportion of broadband complaints (16% of customers) help?

But they don't report that do they? Like others I want hard data so I went and found it. Talk Talk, BT and PlusNet all have worse figures. Virgin actually have below average complaints, and even the worst three don't get near 16%. Virgin's complaint figure is actually 14 per 100,000 customers or 0.014%

Sky do better 0.007%

Broadband results TalkTalk topped the list of most complained about broadband providers in Q3 2017 with 30 complaints per 100,000 subscribers, sitting well above the industry average of 18 calls per 100,000 subscribers. Plusnet and BT were the other two providers above the industry average, scoring 27 and 25 complaints per 100,000 respectively. Of the providers monitored, Sky received the fewest amount of complaints with seven per 100,000 subscribers, more than four times fewer than TalkTalk. TalkTalk customers’ main complaints to Ofcom concerned issues related to a fault or their service. This was closely followed by calls about their complaints handling and about TalkTalk’s billing, prices and charges.

Read more: https://www.which.co.uk/news/2018/0...and-broadband-providers-with-most-complaints/ - Which?

Had you said VM were above average in mobile complaints then you would've been accurate, they are the third worst.

 

[yorksrob]

I know their history on other franchises, isn't the best, but when you look at it, they aren't that bad... I actually hold Arriva in very high regard, and I think that their track record shows good progress. Would love to see them team up with a good European operator, who is new to the UK market. Maybe DSB, or SJ. They operate very respectable services in their countries.

-Chiltern: Constantly voted best operator in Britain
-Grand Central: Also, a highly regarded franchise
-Northern: Lots of new stock, on route
-CrossCountry: A very hard franchise to get right, given the way Virgin got the stock
-Arriva TW: Failed due to lack of Welsh Government funding

I suspect the one that's most similar to the East Coast franchise is cross country, so I would expect it to be more similar to that. On the plus side, they did bring in some HST's, so fair point to them for that. On the negative side, lots of services are too short - not entirely of their own making I know. But I just feel that that franchise rarely offers value for money - which would be a key issue for me as a passenger on the East Coast.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But they don't report that do they?

Yes they do.

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/about-ofco...eases/2017/service-quality-telecoms-providers

Quite what this has to do with Stagecoach is, however, quite beyond me.

 

[SaveECRewards]

I suspect the one that's most similar to the East Coast franchise is cross country, so I would expect it to be more similar to that. On the plus side, they did bring in some HST's, so fair point to them for that. On the negative side, lots of services are too short - not entirely of their own making I know. But I just feel that that franchise rarely offers value for money - which would be a key issue for me as a passenger on the East Coast.

Even if Arriva got the EC franchise they wouldn't get away with running it like CrossCountry. Think back to Virgin days, although the underlying WC and XC franchises are operated by a different limited company (with Virgin Rail Group the parent company for both) they were branded identical, even used the same national rail abbreviation in timetables. Despite this the service levels on WC and XC were always different.

If we look at NXEC that didn't resemble any of the other National Express franchises in how it was won. National Express at their peak were odd, a mix of reasonable and dreadful franchises.

Whoever bids for the franchise (if they are looking for a replacement before 2020) needs to meet expectations the government need to get any bidding process right to ensure that it's deliverable.

 

[alistairlees]

We have a privatised railway.

Really? This is news to me.

All the stations, track, signals, civil engineering (bridges, tunnels etc.) are owned by a state-owned monopoly.*

All the franchises are specified (in terms of service levels, where they serve, a variety of quality measures, and high level requirements like fleet replacement) by DfT.

The franchises that DfT grants are too short to invest in anything long term, without taking on undue risk (regarding lots of investment in rolling stock, which might not have a future home; or in ambitious revenue forecasts, which might not be met because of factors outside your control (Network Rail, the economy, etc.)). Because of this, the returns are paltry (and risky) and there is much less attraction for private companies - hence foreign state ownership of many of Britain's TOCs.

All the fare rises are regulated by DfT, and the fares structure is enshrined in some pre-privatisation rules that no-one dares tamper with. The government effectvely sets fare increases, for the TOCs to take the blame.

The rolling stock is privately owned, but the constraints of moving it around / dependencies on DfT and Network Rail plans etc. mean that the 'market' is not that flexible.

So what we have is a railway that really is not privatised, but just looks that way to the uninitiated. Rather conveniently that allows the DfT / government to avoid blame / responsibility, and the train operators to cop all the blame. Cue a completely uninformed media and politics 'debate' about nationalisation.

It really isn't privatised; it's some horrible halfway house between being privatised and nationalised.


*Yes, I know a couple of stations and one stretch of line aren't, but you get the point.

 

[MG11]

The Virgin Care situation, and his reputation for hiring dancing girls, or glamour models going topless (yes, he really did this in the past) probably mean that many will see him as a dinosaur now, and if he tried any of his old tricks today, he'd find himself subject to total outrage.

Brian Souter's views on homosexuality doesn't seem to have done Stagecoach much harm.

 

[SaveECRewards]

Brian Souter's views on homosexuality doesn't seem to have done Stagecoach much harm.

Ask 100 random people on a Virgin train who Richard Branson is and I'll suspect the vast majority know. Ask 100 random people on a Stagecoach bus who Brian Souter is (particularly outside Scotland) and I can imagine the figure will be much smaller.

Branson is always after publicity, he appears as the face of Virgin, Brian Souter is more behind the scenes. Stagecoach distance themselves from Brian's views on homosexuality. The 'Ride with Pride' London bus was a Stagecoach one.

 

[jon0844]

Brian Souter's views on homosexuality doesn't seem to have done Stagecoach much harm.

Do many people have any idea who he is?

 

[DenmarkRail]

Perhaps in the future, the DFT shouldn't set out a service requirement, instead the bidders offer their service plans, and DFT pick the best? Fare structure could be set by the operator, and Network rail could also become a set of franchises, rather than government owned