Virgin Trains East Coast franchise to end 24 June 2018 and is temporarily re-nationalised

[SaveECRewards]

[...]and an attitude towards standard class passengers that was basically like they were something off the bottom of your shoe.

What makes you say that? Which operator ran and buffet and trolley service (rather than one or the other) in standard class on every service (barring the occasional mishap). The restaurant was open to standard class ticket holders, if they had snobbery against standard ticket holders they could make it first class only. They tried 'Standard Plus' for holders of standard open tickets.

They had a loyalty scheme (GNER365) for standard class annual season ticket holders and they allowed season ticket holders to reserve seats.

So, tell me why were they so bad?

EDIT: they also added an extra standard class carriage to each HST

 

[xotGD]

Am I the only person who thinks that whoever has been operating the trains there has been minimal difference on the ECML from the day 91+Mk4 service was introduced until today?

Politically, I want a public-owned operation and am miffed at a private company dodging out of their obligations.
As an enthusiast, I'm only bothered when a 90 operates vice 91 or a 67 is doing a drag.
As a passenger, the trains keep changing colour, but it makes no real difference.

 

[pt_mad]

Did anyone catch 'This Week' last night on BBC one after Question Time? Andrew Neil opened the program with an anecdote about the failure of Virgin East Coast, and the times it's (ECML franchise) failed and been re-privatised. Labour MP Alan Johnson also chose it as his moment of the week as part of the program.

Likewise the shadow transport secretary was on the news speaking in parliament. He suggested that VTEC will probably be allowed to continue on a management basis due to Chris Grayling's stance, which he said was basically a bailout. He said words to the effect that VTEC should be left to fail within the two months, then they will have to officially approach the DFT as having failed. And the the state should take over the operation and it will be exposed.

Also, searching Virgin East Coast brings up this article https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....tigate-east-coast-rail-bailout-chris-grayling

Says National Audit office investigating the original DFT assistance (given in order to allow VTEC to end the franchise early, in 2020).

Could potentially make another saving of VTEC more complicated?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

GNER had style - branded drinks glasses , great service - and quite affordable meals open to all in the dining car - for example sausage , mash and onion gravy for around a tenner. (including a non alcoholic drink) - cleanliness internally and externally was exemplary.

With the fine exception of GWR with their magnificent Pullman dining trains - the role of "proper" train at set service has been a race to the bottom. VWC used to do a magnificent gammon and salad lunch - literally carved to order , in the style of Simpsons on the Strand. Mind you - that was about 1997...

 

[SaveECRewards]

GNER had style - branded drinks glasses , great service - and quite affordable meals open to all in the dining car - for example sausage , mash and onion gravy for around a tenner. (including a non alcoholic drink) - cleanliness internally and externally was exemplary.

With the fine exception of GWR with their magnificent Pullman dining trains - the role of "proper" train at set service has been a race to the bottom. VWC used to do a magnificent gammon and salad lunch - literally carved to order , in the style of Simpsons on the Strand. Mind you - that was about 1997...

Virgin West Coast sounded good back then! Was that a Virgin improvement or did BR's ICWC have service like that? My first time on VTWC was 1999 and when I asked if they had a restaurant I was told yes, but then when I asked if there was any space I was told it was for first class only.

On the timetables some VTWC services still show 'restaurant for first class passengers only' rather than the more correct 'complimentary catering in first class' symbol. Back in 1999 was the first class restaurant on VTWC complimentary or did you have to pay.

The fact the GNER restaurant always had a more affordable option is another example of why I can't understand why some people think GNER looked down on standard class passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my experience it was more the prevailing staff attitude than anything official.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Virgin West Coast sounded good back then! Was that a Virgin improvement or did BR's ICWC have service like that? My first time on VTWC was 1999 and when I asked if they had a restaurant I was told yes, but then when I asked if there was any space I was told it was for first class only.

On the timetables some VTWC services still show 'restaurant for first class passengers only' rather than the more correct 'complimentary catering in first class' symbol. Back in 1999 was the first class restaurant on VTWC complimentary or did you have to pay.

The fact the GNER restaurant always had a more affordable option is another example of why I can't understand why some people think GNER looked down on standard class passengers.

VWC had an inclusive meal in the normal 1st class ticketing arrangements from pretty well day one , - but the food options were pretty decent to be fair. One noteable bad one though was German sausage and saurekraut - now I love the latter , and had 2 portions - (hardly anybody else did !) - and on complimenting the staff on this , was offered a huge can of "kraut" to take home. My wife would not have approved - but thanked them for their kind offer.

BR Pullman catering on the "crack" trains" was superb - "high tea" coming back from Manchester one day - gammon , egg , chips and salad , wonderful chocolate cake gateaux with cream sauce , cheeseboard .......(and being "off duty" - 2 glasses of good red wine.

Maybe we should follow Indian Railways where catering is "franchised out" to individuals - who compete for excellent and on site cooked meals .......even if it was all Indian - I think there would be a great response.

 

[sheff1]

Virgin West Coast sounded good back then! Was that a Virgin improvement or did BR's ICWC have service like that?

I had moved away from the WCML by the time Virgin took over, but after BR's electrification to Glasgow I regularly travelled there and back from Birmingham on the Midland Scot with a full silver service breakfast northbound and silver service dinner on the return. The restaurant was open to standard class ticket holders.

 

[SaveECRewards]

In my experience it was more the prevailing staff attitude than anything official.

I never encountered that and I was a regular in standard class in my student years (back before first advances), I'd often use the restaurant too. Surely if the staff were elitist they'd be looking down their nose at me for daring to lower the tone of their restaurant.

On the other hand I did feel that way when in 1999 I was told on VTWC I couldn't use their restaurant as I was standard class.

I'm not denying your experience, although I thought most people at GNER (NXEC, EC and VTEC) were excellent, there was a small number of bad staff.

I was relatively young when I first travelled business class on a plane (but many years before it became more commonplace), I also dress pretty casual. Some people have said that cabin crew have treated people like that as if they're not worthy of travelling in that class, I've never experienced that but I understand that you may have encountered crews that acted that way.

The closest I came to that was when I was at Durham station (heading to Newcastle) there was a GNER train pulling into the platform so I ran through the subway to the other platform to try and catch it. I was running towards any doors as I knew it'd be soon departing when a member of staff shouted "standard class is that way". I thought it was wrong to make assumptions. That said the train was terminating at Newcastle (so how many would pay for first class on such a short trip?).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've had "standard class is that way, Sir" a few times by various TOCs even as a fully grown adult (as I tend to dress very casually when travelling, and prefer a rucksack over a trolley suitcase). It's usually best met with a smile and something like "Yes, thank you, I'm well aware of that", or "Yes, thank you, but I have a First Class ticket/intend to upgrade[1]". Usually it makes said presumptuous member of staff skulk off with their tail between their legs.

[1] Only on weekends, obviously.

 

[SaveECRewards]

I've had "standard class is that way, Sir" a few times by various TOCs even as a fully grown adult (as I tend to dress very casually when travelling, and prefer a rucksack over a trolley suitcase). It's usually best met with a smile and something like "Yes, thank you, I'm well aware of that", or "Yes, thank you, but I have a First Class ticket/intend to upgrade[1]". Usually it makes said presumptuous member of staff skulk off with their tail between their legs.

[1] Only on weekends, obviously.

I seem lucky enough to avoid that most of the time, which is surprising as I hate clothes shopping and just buy anything I feel comfortable with for travelling so I don't look the part. When flying it's other passengers that can be the worst. They think you can't possibly have frequent flyer status or be travelling in business class so they're entitled to cut ahead of you!

What's always surprised me is that I've never been pulled up by the people at the entrance to what BA calls the 'first wing' at Heathrow T5. It's a dedicated check-in area and security channel for those who are travelling first class or have gold frequent flyer status. I walk past them wearing jeans and a t-shirt and carrying my worse for wear rucksack and say hi and all they do is return the greeting. Of course if I wasn't eligible I'd be turned away at the desk but it's nice that they don't make any assumptions.

I wonder if my height and also looking old for my age (I could buy alcohol no problem when I was 15, although then it wasn't 'challenge 25' it was 'look 18') meant I didn't have so many assumptions thrown my way, but I certainly don't dress for the occasion so perhaps I'm just lucky avoiding the (openly) judgemental ones.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I've had "standard class is that way, Sir" a few times by various TOCs even as a fully grown adult (as I tend to dress very casually when travelling, and prefer a rucksack over a trolley suitcase). It's usually best met with a smile and something like "Yes, thank you, I'm well aware of that", or "Yes, thank you, but I have a First Class ticket/intend to upgrade[1]". Usually it makes said presumptuous member of staff skulk off with their tail between their legs.

[1] Only on weekends, obviously.

All been there - especially as a student - as a railway manager , my children had free 1st class travel - and the zeal that some staff showed to try and boot my 2 eldest out of 1st class - and their reaction when they showed an all stations 1st pass was always a joy to them. *

You can understand of course , I recall a bricklayer or similar sitting in 1st class on a 4 VEP from Bromely South getting some very sniffy looks from the Readers Digest / FT "Suits" - only to have a warm thank you from the guard who checked tickets that (rare) morning - he caught my eye with approval , and just said "I work hard and I want a nice journey" - fair play to him.

(* they off course lost it on completing their degrees and getting jobs - a source of huge envy to their student mates)

 

[Segedunum]

I've had "standard class is that way, Sir" a few times by various TOCs even as a fully grown adult (as I tend to dress very casually when travelling, and prefer a rucksack over a trolley suitcase). It's usually best met with a smile and something like "Yes, thank you, I'm well aware of that", or "Yes, thank you, but I have a First Class ticket/intend to upgrade[1]". Usually it makes said presumptuous member of staff skulk off with their tail between their legs.

[1] Only on weekends, obviously.

In the early days of VTEC I remember two members of staff trying to block me from getting into Coach K and saying to go into Standard Class.

"no thanks, my ticket is first class" didn't even wash with me and they demanded my ticket there and then.

They also proceeded to refuse to allow anyone to upgrade despite it being a Saturday. Although judging by their expletive ridden rant about passengers shortly on in the journey, this clearly wasn't a one off.

 

[DanNCL]

VTEC were alright when they took over from East Coast, however recently they've deteriorated, to the point where I now try not to use them where possible; partially because of the poor service quality of late, and partially because of their recent fares hike. A return for two people from Newcastle to London at the end of March at a reasonable time of day (not early morning or late evening) is £20 cheaper with British Airways than it is with VTEC; a couple of years ago there was 0% chance of BA ever being cheaper than the EMCL. It also doesn't help that most (but not all) VTEC staff now seem to be rude and many of them don't appear to give a damn about the customer.

I've been a loyal customer to the ECML franchise for many years, however VTEC have damaged the of ECML franchise to the point where I'm now taking my custom elsewhere. Personally I hope that VTEC are gone within the next few months and replaced by the operator of last resort.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Personally I hope that VTEC are gone within the next few months and replaced by the operator of last resort.

Be careful what you wish for...

 

[Darandio]

Be careful what you wish for...

Many will wish for it. The only way should be up once this shower have departed, it's hard to believe it could get any worse.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Many will wish for it. The only way should be up once this shower have departed, it's hard to believe it could get any worse.

Well...

They could introduce another government owned EC service which could:

Get rid of the leather seats in first class.

Get rid of the complementaries and just offer tea and coffee like EMT how they used to.

Introduce a dull ugly boring livery (cough cough DIR East Coast)

But anyway. That is your opinion and it gains my respect of course just like everyone else’s.

 

[SaveECRewards]

You can understand of course , I recall a bricklayer or similar sitting in 1st class on a 4 VEP from Bromely South getting some very sniffy looks from the Readers Digest / FT "Suits" - only to have a warm thank you from the guard who checked tickets that (rare) morning - he caught my eye with approval , and just said "I work hard and I want a nice journey" - fair play to him.

Different people have different priorities in life, I try to travel in comfort but tend to buy cheap clothes (because I hate shopping), don't own a car despite passing my test at 17 (I live in London so don't see the point, it's cheaper to hire on the rare occasion I need one). Unless I consider the price excessive I'll travel first class on trains and business class even on short haul flights when available. Then there's other people significantly better off than me who buy expensive clothes, have a better house and an expensive car. Despite that they'll travel train or plane on the cheapest available ticket.

So the builder is quite right, he works hard and if he thinks first class is a good use of his money then why not. I agree with that.

VTEC were alright when they took over from East Coast, however recently they've deteriorated, to the point where I now try not to use them where possible; partially because of the poor service quality of late, and partially because of their recent fares hike. A return for two people from Newcastle to London at the end of March at a reasonable time of day (not early morning or late evening) is £20 cheaper with British Airways than it is with VTEC; a couple of years ago there was 0% chance of BA ever being cheaper than the EMCL. It also doesn't help that most (but not all) VTEC staff now seem to be rude and many of them don't appear to give a damn about the customer.

I've been a loyal customer to the ECML franchise for many years, however VTEC have damaged the of ECML franchise to the point where I'm now taking my custom elsewhere. Personally I hope that VTEC are gone within the next few months and replaced by the operator of last resort.

I agree 100% with this. 2016 I never found a time where BA was cheaper than VTEC (I normally book with a week or so notice, some people who could book further in advance did occasionally find it cheaper to fly but almost alway the train won). I wrote this in 2016, I changed my tune in 2017!

Many will wish for it. The only way should be up once this shower have departed, it's hard to believe it could get any worse.

It's worth remembering it could get a lot worse. Would you be happy with the first class (not Pullman) product of GWR or indeed that of Greater Anglia on their InterCity route or CrossCountry. VTEC is still one of the best, it's just significantly worse than we are used to.

I felt the same when DOR were set to take over NXEC. I knew NXEC were terrible compared to GNER but I knew it could be a lot worse so I was worried for a while. Fortunately DOR were quite reassuring from the beginning (posters "It's business as usual, it's your East Coast") and managed to do a good job, first of all reversing some of NXECs cuts.

VTEC actually started reassuring for the first few days. They has some nice posters saying things like East Coast were a true success story but they're not there to change that but to build on it and some other posters on building on the heritage of the route. Then a few days later their first £10m ad campaign (which I called SHOUTY ADS as it was just a bunch of posters in all caps) started shouting slogans like HELLO CHANGE LETS EMBRACE plus Branson toured the ECML on day 3 and he started his usual drivel - take a look here for an example.

 

[HowardGWR]

Who would best sort out the relations with what are clearly demotivated onboard staff? After all, they will transfer to the new operator. Were they not in continual dispute recently?

 

[pt_mad]

Be careful what you wish for...

Many will wish for it. The only way should be up once this shower have departed, it's hard to believe it could get any worse.

I can understand in on one hand it'd probably be easier for the DFT to leave VT in charge till 2020 on a management basis, as it would save the hastle of bringing a team in and it's damage limitation in terms of bad publicity for the franchising system.

But on the other hand, should their senior management be left in place and on their salaries when it's all gone so wrong? The leadership can't exactly be great can it?

 

[DenmarkRail]

I can understand in on one hand it'd probably be easier for the DFT to leave VT in charge till 2020 on a management basis, as it would save the hastle of bringing a team in and it's damage limitation in terms of bad publicity for the franchising system.

But on the other hand, should their senior management be left in place and on their salaries when it's all gone so wrong? The leadership can't exactly be great can it?

Not the senior management that made the mistakes, it was the bidding team.

 

[cactustwirly]

VTEC were alright when they took over from East Coast, however recently they've deteriorated, to the point where I now try not to use them where possible; partially because of the poor service quality of late, and partially because of their recent fares hike. A return for two people from Newcastle to London at the end of March at a reasonable time of day (not early morning or late evening) is £20 cheaper with British Airways than it is with VTEC; a couple of years ago there was 0% chance of BA ever being cheaper than the EMCL. It also doesn't help that most (but not all) VTEC staff now seem to be rude and many of them don't appear to give a damn about the customer.

I've been a loyal customer to the ECML franchise for many years, however VTEC have damaged the of ECML franchise to the point where I'm now taking my custom elsewhere. Personally I hope that VTEC are gone within the next few months and replaced by the operator of last resort.

I just want to point out that over the past few years, BA has worked to cut their fares. I don't know about Newcastle, but from Gatwick on short haul they aren't that much more expensive than Easyjet (roughly £45 for a single) whereas a couple of years ago, BA were more expensive.

I don't dispute that VTEC have significantly raised fares, but Train vs Plane a few years ago vs Train vs Plane now, aren't necessarily like for like.

 

[DanNCL]

I just want to point out that over the past few years, BA has worked to cut their fares. I don't know about Newcastle, but from Gatwick on short haul they aren't that much more expensive than Easyjet (roughly £45 for a single) whereas a couple of years ago, BA were more expensive.

I don't dispute that VTEC have significantly raised fares, but Train vs Plane a few years ago vs Train vs Plane now, aren't necessarily like for like.

I'd agree with that; BA lowering their fares (two years ago I'd have had no chance of getting a return for not much more than £70) does make VTECs price increases look steeper than they actually are.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't travel first class often: only when there's a cheap advance. I also, like a few others have said, tend to dress down (because it isn't 1950!)... but I've only ever once had staff give me the sniffy, "you don't belong here" attitude and that was on FGW going from Paddington to Taunton. I was in a bit of a state to be fair, having been at a concert the previous night and slept in a hostel, but as soon as I showed my ticket all the attitude disappeared. The lady who had questioned me was VERY apologetic but I reassured her that I'd have quizzed me too. I did accept the extra freebies she offered but only with a smile and a remark that "you can take the boy out of Yorkshire..."!

Other first-class passengers on the other hand, can be VERY stuffy about who else is in "their" carriage!

 

[johnnychips]

Fares do seem to have risen somewhat, but I agree with a lot of other posters that the 'cool', 'let's try and do youngspeak' really grates. It is like the embarrassing uncle at the wedding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"no thanks, my ticket is first class" didn't even wash with me and they demanded my ticket there and then.

They also proceeded to refuse to allow anyone to upgrade despite it being a Saturday. Although judging by their expletive ridden rant about passengers shortly on in the journey, this clearly wasn't a one off.

I hope you reported that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who would best sort out the relations with what are clearly demotivated onboard staff? After all, they will transfer to the new operator. Were they not in continual dispute recently?

Some of them will be demotivated because of poor management, but there is a cultural problem in some areas too (certainly the Coach K police on VTWC which really needs stamping on, though recent changes will probably help solve it). One of the downsides of TUPE is that you can't get rid of them by changing contractor. (The upside of TUPE is that you can't get rid.... )

 

[Segedunum]

I hope you reported that.

Yes- and VTEC did absolutely nothing.

Had I had the energy i'd have likely pursued it further.

 

[47271]

Not the senior management that made the mistakes, it was the bidding team.

So the dire overpricing, embarrassing marketing, skinflint loyalty scheme, useless website, offensive social media, the decimation of at seat service in both classes, the painful and out of place 'glorious' and 'awesome' schtick, tacky crumb infested First Class lounges, the James Martin sausage roll that caused my stomach to demand four Rennies an hour afterwards, and Seatfrog, were all the fault of the bidding team?

I'm (mainly) joking obviously but in my view the quicker this bunch of charlatans get moved on the better.

 

[pt_mad]

Not the senior management that made the mistakes, it was the bidding team.

Do we know that for sure though? If it was simply the bidding team the DFT should have picked up on it. Could it not have been poor management of the franchise meaning things have deteriorated as some posters are describing here and reputation and volume of custom has suffered compared to what was envisaged?