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Virgin Trains East Coast franchise to end 24 June 2018 and is temporarily re-nationalised

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LNW-GW Joint

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The "deal" between the DfT and Treasury was to invest large sums in the railway, but at the cost of transferring the burden to passengers rather than taxpayers.
This was in Brown/Darling times (Alistair Darling having been Transport SoS before becoming Chancellor).
The Coalition and Tories continued the same policy.
You can be sure the Treasury wants to know how the DfT intends to plug the funding gap without the anticipated premiums from VTEC.
 
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Kieran1990

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I did really hope Virgin/ Stagecoach would really last it out on the EC after Branson has said in the past about previous company’s overbidding for EC franchise. But alas they have gone the same way.
The investment and improvements to services they were offering looked like great benefit to us ECML punters. I know virgin aren’t to blame for the infrastructure upgrades being delayed but it’s all very pot kettle (relating to my point above)

My other question/ point is- will the new management contract/ Operator of last resort bring any changes to customers with the planned intro of the Class 800/ 801’s over the next 18months? Or do we feel the ECML will have to wait until the partnership is in place in 2020?
 

Marklund

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In many ways this has dissolved the brand. Almost as bad as Stelios, if you look at easy.com he has created loads of 'easy' companies most you've never heard of.
Obviously some people in marketing think the Virgin brand is still cool, otherwise they'd not have used it. I think Virgin Care will likely to be what kills off the last remaining admiration for the brand.

As SpaceX blasted off this week, we're still waiting for the Virgin Galactic "coming soon" to happen that's being "coming soon" for years.

And as for the rest of the Virgin Group, I'll leave this here...

http://www.private-eye.co.uk/sections.php?section_link=news&issue=1374

Private Eye said:
The years of loss-making have left the Virgin Care companies, mainly Virgin Care Ltd and Virgin Care Services Ltd, with liabilities exceeding assets by around £28m, and most of what assets the companies do have are in the “intangible” form of technology Virgin Care has developed. The losses are replenished by loans from unknown sources within the wider Virgin group. Since its accounts also show that it doesn’t expect profits for the “foreseeable future” – which again questions the wisdom of low-balling bids – these will have to keep rolling in for some time yet.
 

centraltrains

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Marklund

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Pretty sure Virgin Galactic is still happening... Wen't on the site a month or so ago and they still seemed to be doing test flights... Perhaps just keeping a low profile?
They've been coming in the next six months for years.

https://www.space.com/38462-richard-branson-virgin-galactic-flight.html

Branson has a history of publicly declaring ambitious timelines for the company. Virgin Galactic, together with the company Scaled Composites, began developing the tourism venture in 2004, with Branson originally estimating that the company would fly customers by 2007.
https://www.space.com/38462-richard-branson-virgin-galactic-flight.html
 
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pt_mad

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I had remembered that time well, just finishing GCSEs, only travelled on the BR IC225 a few times before (nice and new then) but thinking it would be great if Virgin got the ECML franchise. Thought they would probably revolutionise it.

In the end GNER got it and they impressed me. They took what they got from BR and built on it. They had a beautiful livery that looked very traditional but with a modern (at the time) twist.

Virgin (CrossCountry) at the time had some knackered stock from BR and didn't seem to want to do much with it. I never saw the interiors of the trains in the BR days but it didn't look like they did anything to them. While GNER got their fleet pained relatively quickly there was still some carriages going around in InterCity colours, there was often a mix of Virgin and BR carriages in the rake of coaches it never gave to me a modern feeling.

Other things I remember from that time were the lack of focus on catering. On GNER the buffet was open from a few minutes after departure until about 20 minutes before the terminating stop and you pretty much knew in standard there was also a trolley and in first it was well staffed. I remember boarding an XC service from Sheffield to Newcastle late evening to find the buffet shut, after a similar thing a few weeks later I decided it was better to get Northern(Spirit) to Doncaster and GNER from there.

As VTEC have discovered thanks to GNER people expect a reliable catering service. East Coast making first class complimentary has also raised expectations on that front (although I preferred the restaurants).

Back when the franchised was announced I questioned the wisdom of using the Virgin brand as many people would associate Virgin with CrossCountry as if you lived between Doncaster and Scotland that was probably your biggest experience with Virgin Trains.

In many ways this has dissolved the brand. Almost as bad as Stelios, if you look at easy.com he has created loads of 'easy' companies most you've never heard of.

Obviously some people in marketing think the Virgin brand is still cool, otherwise they'd not have used it. I think Virgin Care will likely to be what kills off the last remaining admiration for the brand.



I've never thought of that. It's easy to forget that people who were well known when you were growing up may be someone that the current young generation might not know.

Personally I think most teenagers will probably know who he is, but I imagine many think he's like this embarrassing grandad who tries to be cool in front of their friends.

Very good points.

About XC having inherited some knackered stock. Fair enough with the MK2 coaches, but mk3s had the potential to be made into exactly what First and GNER did with their mk3s. And the HSTs had huge potential remaining, as shown by many of the other HST based operations which continued.

Watched a documentary on YouTube yesterday having read this thread, called something along the line of Branson's Tilting Train. It was really interesting to watch, especially with hindsight. He talks about the dilapidated trains they had before the Pendolinos. And says that it doesn't matter how well you clean the loos, they still won't be clean. If that's the case why are all these other franchises running with MK3 coaches? Answer is to replace the toilets.
He takes all the credit for the Pendolinos and the film seems to indicate that it was a choice Virgin made to buy these trains once they had the franchise and it was optional and they took a risk out of choice? Surely it was part of the conditions with the DFT, and the leaseholders bought the trains?

Also there's another video on YouTube about the introduction of the Virgin Voyagers. And RB is saying it's the most environmentally friendly diesel train in Europe running on part Bio Fuel from sugar beet. Did that actually ever happen?

Anyway back to topic, regarding the Virgin East Coast brand.
Everything Virgin branded, plenty of red, but the same old trains, although refreshed in and out, and no drastic service improvements yet. They finished the popular rewards, and as an add on they have made some cuts onboard, which is probably perceived as for the worst. And they have removed some tickets barriers. l can only assume staff were not as thrilled as those on the WCML that VT were taking over, as East Coast before it was perceived as a huge success and many wondered why it had to be put out for tender anyway.

Also, all this arrive awesome seems imo to be growing old. Society is changing, fast. Times are harder, especially for the millennials and younger. And the idea of paying a little extra to board a Virgin service over something else seems to be not as popular as it once was (on the WCML for sure). There was a huge excitement on the West Coast around the tilting trains at the start, but they are middle aged trains now, nothing new, and the East Coast has seen no new trains yet. So the innovation has yet to be seen by a lot of the customers on the ECML.

Also, the glamorous awesome luxury image of old with hostesses and a feeling of being successful is also wearing thinner amongst society I feel. And female members of staff on the WCML being asked to wear tight see through blouses and skirts a few years ago led to an uproar and news reports, would now be frowned upon even more heavily today than it was then. RB was often photo'd for media with the prettiest most glamorous hostesses, in the earlier days on the West Coast, and this was their (VTs) image. But times are a changing and I'm not sure yet whether Virgin is?
 
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61653 HTAFC

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^^^^^
Agree with much of what's been said above. But I'll go further: Richard Branson is not a man to be lauded, admired or aspired to. He got lucky with his earlier business ventures and managed to cultivate a reputation in the media as the "cool" business owner at a time when businessmen (and they were/are pretty much all men!) were seen as either stuffy, grey-suited Jaguar drivers, or shallow, womanising Porsche posers.

Basically the guy is a charlatan, quick to take credit for the good stuff but conspicuous by his absence when it goes backside-over-bosom. He's got far more in common with a certain Donald J. Drumpf than the Virgin fanboys (if there are any left) would like to admit.
 

158756

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I did really hope Virgin/ Stagecoach would really last it out on the EC after Branson has said in the past about previous company’s overbidding for EC franchise. But alas they have gone the same way.
The investment and improvements to services they were offering looked like great benefit to us ECML punters. I know virgin aren’t to blame for the infrastructure upgrades being delayed but it’s all very pot kettle (relating to my point above)

My other question/ point is- will the new management contract/ Operator of last resort bring any changes to customers with the planned intro of the Class 800/ 801’s over the next 18months? Or do we feel the ECML will have to wait until the partnership is in place in 2020?

Well, the new trains will still be built, and presumably delivered, but with the track record of DOR with Lincoln, the state of the power supply upgrades, and the inevitable drive to cut costs from the franchise now the Treasury isn't going to get the promised returns, who knows if Middlesbrough, Bradford, Harrogate or indeed Lincoln (again) will ever see a regular intercity service.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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I’m praying they don’t relet the franchise and continue with VTEC on that non profit basis thing...
 

MG11

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Well, the new trains will still be built, and presumably delivered, but with the track record of DOR with Lincoln, the state of the power supply upgrades, and the inevitable drive to cut costs from the franchise now the Treasury isn't going to get the promised returns, who knows if Middlesbrough, Bradford, Harrogate or indeed Lincoln (again) will ever see a regular intercity service.
I don't want to be accused of Crayoning but Open Access operators might fill that gap...there was some speculation that First were planning another open access company on the ECML, and before I get shot down in flames, that was only speculation.
 

JaJaWa

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I don't want to be accused of Crayoning but Open Access operators might fill that gap...there was some speculation that First were planning another open access company on the ECML, and before I get shot down in flames, that was only speculation.
It’s not just speculation, First East Coast Trains will operate five services a day in each direction between London King's Cross and Edinburgh calling at Stevenage, Newcastle and Morpeth from May 2021.
 

swt_passenger

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It’s not just speculation, First East Coast Trains will operate five services a day in each direction between London King's Cross and Edinburgh calling at Stevenage, Newcastle and Morpeth from May 2021.

Not only that, the future open access plans were clearly described in the ECML ITT that Virgin/Stagecoach bid against. They couldn't have claimed it was unexpected.
 

smtglasgow

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Maybe I’m just a dour Scot, but I’ve always found Virgin’s whole ‘Arrive Awesome’ schtick a bit much. I’d much rather arrive within about 15 mins of scheduled time having paid a reasonable sum, thank you very much. I’m sure i’m within their target demographic – youngish, professional, frequent traveller – but their social media just doesn’t work for me. The memes, the pictures of hen parties drinking complimentary prosecco, the constant upselling to First Class all seems a bit desperate. And as a seasoned traveller with both West and East Coast, the relentless positivity – I fully expect that we’ll soon have to high-five the on-board staff as they pass through the train – is at odds with the reality.

All of which overshadows the fact that, on West Coast at least, the majority of journeys are actually quite pleasant. East Coast, less so. Just spare me the brand nonsense.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It’s not just speculation, First East Coast Trains will operate five services a day in each direction between London King's Cross and Edinburgh calling at Stevenage, Newcastle and Morpeth from May 2021.

I think you will find those paths are subject to the same NR capacity enhancements on the ECML that have damaged the VTEC business case.
These are 4-tracking at Woodwalton and the Werrington flyover, and I think the northern ECML power upgrade.
Access was deferred until 2021 to allow for the delivery of these upgrades, but there is no confirmed date yet.
I suspect the power situation will impact the planned TPE Newcastle-Edinburgh services as well.
 

zn1

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with Bransons very minor shareholding in this business, the majority shareholders should have dumped him out, got rid of the brand, the Virgin brand shows expectation of great things, , all that is happening essentially is the electra fleet is being wound down after doing their 40 years and a new squadron of monte zumas or whatever the hitachi assembled stuff being used is being cascaded in to replace, this was always going to happen, branson cannot take credit for that, but the ego of the beard DID anyway .the North eastern route is a completely different animal to the west coast, i dont know what was being expected, but the intercity part of the LNER will always eat alot more cash than she makes, she wont make money overnight. the franchise got it sums wrong big style, and it should have become a DOR before that cash injection that grayling gave it...that wont be returned anytime soon, the operational black hole swallowed that immediatly
 

SaveECRewards

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I’m praying they don’t relet the franchise and continue with VTEC on that non profit basis thing...

Not for profit also means not for loss. Stagecoach can run it for no risk and the senior management will continue to get paid their salaries. It's a win-win for Stagecoach!

Even if that happened you may lose the Virgin brand. Notice how quiet Virgin have been about East Coast this week, it's possible Virgin don't want to be associated with this mess.

I've also blogged about other reasons why Virgin brand may go even if Stagecoach continues, also it's possible the Virgin brand to remain (less likely) even if Stagecoach is replaced.

Over 1000 people have voted on my Twitter poll and currently 96% rated GNER the best private franchisee of the ECML, VTEC at 3% and National Express at 1% - GNER has left a lasting impression on the route https://twitter.com/saveecrewards/status/961669119648116736

All of which overshadows the fact that, on West Coast at least, the majority of journeys are actually quite pleasant. East Coast, less so. Just spare me the brand nonsense.

Did you think that prior to VTEC running the line? I still think if everything runs as advertised (and that's a big IF since the catering lottery of 2017) VTEC has a better product than VTWC. One thing VTEC has done is over promise and under deliver.
 

JaJaWa

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the North eastern route is a completely different animal to the west coast, i dont know what was being expected, but the intercity part of the LNER will always eat alot more cash than she makes, she wont make money overnight. the franchise got it sums wrong big style, and it should have become a DOR before that cash injection that grayling gave it...that wont be returned anytime soon, the operational black hole swallowed that immediatly
The route does make a profit.
They are only making a loss of £84 million (to April 2017) after paying the government £525 million (to April 2017) for the right to run services.
They are paying the taxpayer around 30% more than East Coast did to operate the route.
 

zn1

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fiscally then the shareholders get ???? an orange ?? a Virgin Trains Pen ?? after operating, wages, gov returns etc ?? where is the bait to keep the fish biting for more??
 

SaveECRewards

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Haven't they come top in the recent customer satisfaction survey?
Closely followed by VTWC.
I've not actually looked at the recent results but they always say 'top franchised operator' this is because Grand Central and Hull Trains (open access) generally score even higher! So when VTEC is saying they're top they actually set criteria that excludes two of their direct competitors!

The National Rail passenger survey asks the same questions whether you're travelling regional or InterCity. Therefore it doesn't ask questions relating to the areas that VTEC typically have been criticised for such as unreliable catering, dreadful website, etc.

VTEC complaints increased significantly in 2017: https://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk...coast-complaint-numbers-suggest-not-1-8339174

I still think VTEC is the best operator in the UK, but I also think it's overall worse than East Coast and GNER, last year VTEC was heading toward mediocrity. When we've had the best why should we settle for less particularly when paying more.

fan boyism.
Personally I think the brand itself works well, although I'd go back to GNER anyday, the VTEC livery takes a different approach and does work well but not everyone likes it.

I think they went a bit over the top with their trying to act like a Virgin company though. If they used the branding but toned down their communications to be less in your face I'm sure more people would have liked the brand. In a way they tried too hard to be 'Virgin' when most people would have preferred they were more like 'East Coast' but with a splash of red.
 
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Allwinter_Kit

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Maybe I’m just a dour Scot, but I’ve always found Virgin’s whole ‘Arrive Awesome’ schtick a bit much. I’d much rather arrive within about 15 mins of scheduled time having paid a reasonable sum, thank you very much. I’m sure i’m within their target demographic – youngish, professional, frequent traveller – but their social media just doesn’t work for me....I fully expect that we’ll soon have to high-five the on-board staff as they pass through the train.

Just spare me the brand nonsense.

I couldn't agree more with this. It's a railway company not a frat house. The quiet, solid and seeming professionalism of the GNER brand (as others have said) was much more appropriate and, as those poll results would seem to show, appreciated.

Certainly better than the faux-enthusiastic upbeat shtick about how 'awesome' everything is. It's a train - and now quite an elderly one. Just make it clean and make it get me there on time. It's a transport service not a sodding cola/galactic tourism rocket.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Maybe I’m just a dour Scot, but I’ve always found Virgin’s whole ‘Arrive Awesome’ schtick a bit much. I’d much rather arrive within about 15 mins of scheduled time having paid a reasonable sum, thank you very much. I’m sure i’m within their target demographic – youngish, professional, frequent traveller – but their social media just doesn’t work for me. The memes, the pictures of hen parties drinking complimentary prosecco, the constant upselling to First Class all seems a bit desperate. And as a seasoned traveller with both West and East Coast, the relentless positivity – I fully expect that we’ll soon have to high-five the on-board staff as they pass through the train – is at odds with the reality.

All of which overshadows the fact that, on West Coast at least, the majority of journeys are actually quite pleasant. East Coast, less so. Just spare me the brand nonsense.
This, 100%.

I may be a cynical lefty, but when these franchised operators (VT are the worst, but certainly not the only offenders) consistently hand you an overpriced poo-sandwich while insisting it's fillet mignon, it doesn't half make the spidey-senses tingle...

Sure, they have to do promotion, they want to grow their market, but sometimes "less is more". GNER didn't demand that we "arrive awesome", they just came up with a classy and elegant image and prioritised making sure that the basics were right. They had the cast "Route of the Flying Scotsman" crests but they didn't stick vinyls of it up in the toilets with a catchy slogan.

The relentless positivity is all well and good when things are running smoothly, but if the fertiliser hits the ventilator you have to go into recovery mode. Staff can do that regardless, but they'll seem more sincere in their apologies if they're not surrounded by bright red slogans boasting about how great the company is.
 

43096

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This, 100%.

I may be a cynical lefty, but when these franchised operators (VT are the worst, but certainly not the only offenders) consistently hand you an overpriced poo-sandwich while insisting it's fillet mignon, it doesn't half make the spidey-senses tingle...

Sure, they have to do promotion, they want to grow their market, but sometimes "less is more". GNER didn't demand that we "arrive awesome", they just came up with a classy and elegant image and prioritised making sure that the basics were right. They had the cast "Route of the Flying Scotsman" crests but they didn't stick vinyls of it up in the toilets with a catchy slogan.

The relentless positivity is all well and good when things are running smoothly, but if the fertiliser hits the ventilator you have to go into recovery mode. Staff can do that regardless, but they'll seem more sincere in their apologies if they're not surrounded by bright red slogans boasting about how great the company is.
Oh, please. Who's doing the fanboy stuff now for GNER? Take the rose tinted glasses off and you'll see that GNER was, in its own way, just as poor as VTEC. Dire performance (GNER's profits were largely from penalty claims against Railtrack), inconsistent customer service (much like now - none of the operators of East Coast have got a grip on the poor crews) and an attitude towards standard class passengers that was basically like they were something off the bottom of your shoe.

Virgin and GNER had far more in common than many realise - all a veneer of style over substance.
 

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The Mallard refurb was classic style over substance - it all *looks* very nice but they are the worst-designed, least comfortable seats I have ever had the misfortune to use on the railway, due to the single-piece cushion making the base slope down away from the back rather than towards it as it should. Fortunately VTEC fixed this in their refurb by using a two piece cushion as GNER should have in the first place.
 

dcsprior

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The Mallard refurb was classic style over substance - it all *looks* very nice but they are the worst-designed, least comfortable seats I have ever had the misfortune to use on the railway, due to the single-piece cushion making the base slope down away from the back rather than towards it as it should. Fortunately VTEC fixed this in their refurb by using a two piece cushion as GNER should have in the first place.

Really? IMO they're great seats, except when the recline button gets stuck on (which is all too often). The VTEC refurb added an uncomfortable lump in the backrest.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Oh, please. Who's doing the fanboy stuff now for GNER? Take the rose tinted glasses off and you'll see that GNER was, in its own way, just as poor as VTEC. Dire performance (GNER's profits were largely from penalty claims against Railtrack), inconsistent customer service (much like now - none of the operators of East Coast have got a grip on the poor crews) and an attitude towards standard class passengers that was basically like they were something off the bottom of your shoe.

Virgin and GNER had far more in common than many realise - all a veneer of style over substance.

On the contrary, the only operator I could legitimately be accused of being a fanboy for is BR, and even then I'm not so blinded by nostalgia as to ignore the long list of negatives.

The comparison I was making was simply about how these two businesses chose to promote themselves. Yes, there was plenty wrong with GNER just as there are valid and legitimate criticisms to be made of the DOR-run East Coast.

The key difference in terms of image are that VTEC thought they could just splash red everywhere and passengers wouldn't care about rising fares, unreliable catering, a buggy website and a smartphone app that shouldn't have got out of beta-testing. The fares side was sort of forced on them by the overbidding which was a daft (no pun intended, honest...) decision in and of itself: but everything subsequent to that was also massively misjudged.

On the ECML as with any route it's inevitable that from time to time things will go wrong, and it usually won't be the fault of the TOC. Given that, the completely tone-deaf marketing on VTEC was always primed to backfire. I feel sorry for the frontline staff who've had to deal with the fallout while their efforts are undermined by the posters on every available surface, and having to deal with passengers who are less tolerant of issues because of the rising fares and decline in quality. As I said, when it comes to advertising or any form of promotion, less is more!
 

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Really? IMO they're great seats, except when the recline button gets stuck on (which is all too often). The VTEC refurb added an uncomfortable lump in the backrest.

Seats are very much a matter of opinion and there have been tons of threads on them, but the better designs are more generic in shape so they suit a wider cross-section of sizes/shapes of people. For instance, other than a general dislike for harder modern seats (all modern seats are quite firm) and the pitch in some parts of some units I don't think I ever heard a significant complaint about the 2+2 Desiro standard seat (the Grammer E3000). Nor, going back a bit, to the rounded-top Chapman seat used in a lot of DMU refurbs in the 1990s.
 
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