Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[Starmill]

They aren't. They do, however, show in some online journey planners, as I've previously mentioned.

There is a possibility that this will could cause a problem for Virgin Trains, Trainline and others who are selling tickets that far ahead. If someone buys a walk-up ticket now for an itinerary that is no longer possible because the service that exists in the Working Timetable as of the change date does not include the train they've booked for, the customer would be entitled to delay compensation. In an extreme case they may be significantly delayed as a result of missing a key connection, or even become stranded, meaning a lot of extra cost if anyone needed to be transported long distance by taxi or given overnight accommodation.

 

[Starmill]

which I don’t think will really knock off that much journey time?

It would seem that for those travelling from Knaresborough or Starbeck to Leeds, there is no interest in a quicker journey time.

The Sunday service has already improved at these stations, so it seems that as a result of the RUG or 'local politicians', there are no real plans for any further changes to benefit their users.

 

[Mathew S]

There is a possibility that this will could cause a problem for Virgin Trains, Trainline and others who are selling tickets that far ahead. If someone buys a walk-up ticket now for an itinerary that is no longer possible because the service that exists in the Working Timetable as of the change date does not include the train they've booked for, the customer would be entitled to delay compensation. In an extreme case they may be significantly delayed as a result of missing a key connection, or even become stranded, meaning a lot of extra cost if anyone needed to be transported long distance by taxi or given overnight accommodation.

Indeed. I've been thinking on this for a while. The itineraries have been in Virgin's journey planner, and I assume therefore also Trainline's, since around Christmas time. May even have been earlier than that, as Virgin allow ticket purchases 6 months ahead I think. I've been toying with the idea of buying a Manchester - Preston with an itinerary on one of the TPE Scotland via Bolton or Northern EMU services, just to see what Virgin say when these services turn out to not actually exist.

 

[Starmill]

Minor re-timings are very common so they will probably just tell you about an alternative timed train you can use your ticket on. In that case there will still be a Manchester to Preston train and it will most likely be within a few minutes of the booked one.

If someone bought something like Huddersfield to Castleford though, and the train wasn't going to Castleford, that would be potentially be more significant. If someone bought a ticket from Atherton to London and the train from Atherton no longer existed at all and they had to wait 15 or 20 minutes for the next one, thus missing the connection, that would be a pretty big problem.

 

[johntea]

Not sure where you're looking, but for most of them I get this:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y21463/2018/05/23/advanced

I can't remember where I was looking! That makes more sense, although a few local councillors look to live around the Hornbeam Park area!

 

[northwichcat]

I can't remember where I was looking! That makes more sense, although a few local councillors look to live around the Hornbeam Park area!

Like I said in an earlier post some peak time services will make extra calls, so if you picked a peak time service to look at it would have shown more calls being made.

 

[tbtc]

The Harrogate-Leeds services were originally only to be all-stops with the York/Knaresborough services running semi-fast south of Harrogate but some local politicians made a massive fuss about that.

I thought that the plan was that these Harrogate - Leeds paths would be used by VTEC every couple of hours, which was why the slightly unusual situation (of the short distance services being the "fasts" and the long distance services being the "stoppers") came about?

Ideally you'd want the solution like on the mid-Cheshire line or the Sheffield - Retford route where the long distance service is being sped up by a new "short" service picking up the local stops, but it makes sense if VTEC are going to run bi-hourly London - Harrogate services (since it'd be a waste of an 80X to try stopping it at some of the local stations en-route.

 

[northwichcat]

Ideally you'd want the solution like on the mid-Cheshire line or the Sheffield - Retford route where the long distance service is being sped up by a new "short" service picking up the local stops, but it makes sense if VTEC are going to run bi-hourly London - Harrogate services (since it'd be a waste of an 80X to try stopping it at some of the local stations en-route.

Like on other routes a few made a fuss about stations like Navigation Rd, Mobberley and Lostock Gralam losing their direct off-peak service to Chester, so the latest plan is now for the Greenbank services to be semi-fasts, which means if the same size units are used on both the Greenbank and Chester services the passengers aren't going to be very evenly distributed between them.

 

[driver_m]

323s are making a return to lime st . Spoke to a Northern driver yesterday who told me they're getting 323s running into Liverpool with the Crewe -Airport - Lime St service, before the 331s arrive. Also learning the route to Crewe again.

 

[47802]

I thought that the plan was that these Harrogate - Leeds paths would be used by VTEC every couple of hours, which was why the slightly unusual situation (of the short distance services being the "fasts" and the long distance services being the "stoppers") came about?

Ideally you'd want the solution like on the mid-Cheshire line or the Sheffield - Retford route where the long distance service is being sped up by a new "short" service picking up the local stops, but it makes sense if VTEC are going to run bi-hourly London - Harrogate services (since it'd be a waste of an 80X to try stopping it at some of the local stations en-route.

Well yes ideally except its not quite like Sheffield-Lincoln where you have significant longer distance passengers, its only really the local stations beyond Harrogate that miss out, nobody is going to use it to travel from Leeds to York except maybe a Rail Enthusiast.

 

[Kite159]

Well yes ideally except its not quite like Sheffield-Lincoln where you have significant longer distance passengers, its only really the local stations beyond Harrogate that miss out, nobody is going to use it to travel from Leeds to York except maybe a Rail Enthusiast.

Or those wanting to save that tiny bit of money travelling to York from Leeds with a "via Harrogate" fare, and isn't fussed about it taking longer.

----

Is it this timetable change Northern are meant to be introducing their hourly York - Scarborough services or is it a future timetable change?

 

[Starmill]

Nope that's not this year.

 

[Kite159]

Nope that's not this year.

Ta

----

I agree with others, seems odd the 'long distance' services are the stoppers with the Harrogate shorts being semi-fast

 

[cle]

Manchester to Scotland, if via Wigan, needn't stop there. It has good connections already (from the Euston main and Euston/B'ham) - and journey times could be improved.

That said, if Euston-Glasgows begin to run fast to Preston, given other Euston-Lancashire services that might be the plan.

Whereas Bolton needs the service, full stop, not being on a mainline. And mainly to Manchester and Preston - other points being added bonuses.

 

[Starmill]

Manchester to Scotland, if via Wigan, needn't stop there. It has good connections already (from the Euston main and Euston/B'ham) - and journey times could be improved.

That said, if Euston-Glasgows begin to run fast to Preston, given other Euston-Lancashire services that might be the plan.

Whereas Bolton needs the service, full stop, not being on a mainline. And mainly to Manchester and Preston - other points being added bonuses.

Not all services will call at Bolton. These services won't be available for travel from Manchester to Bolton.

I have been saying this over and over for what feels like a couple of years, but it comes back again and again.

 

[Ianno87]

Manchester to Scotland, if via Wigan, needn't stop there. It has good connections already (from the Euston main and Euston/B'ham) - and journey times could be improved.

That said, if Euston-Glasgows begin to run fast to Preston, given other Euston-Lancashire services that might be the plan.

Whereas Bolton needs the service, full stop, not being on a mainline. And mainly to Manchester and Preston - other points being added bonuses.

Bolton ought in theory to act as a north Manchester railhead for Scotland in the same way Stockport does to the south for Birmingham/Euston. But it doesn't, presumably the lack of decent station parking and the erratic Scotland service provision over the last 15 years. Two hourly 2002-2003, then almost nothing, then two hourly again 2004-8, then houly to 2013, then nothing again (and pre-2002 wasn't 'clockface' at all). There are so few places on the network that have had such a feast and famine service provision.

Boltonians have traditionally had plenty of northward service options by changing at Preston, so the market for direct services has never really established itself, nor is Bolton particularly linked to Scotland economically or historically.

 

[Kite159]

I bet the people of Glasgow can't wait to have a direct service to the powerhouse of Bolton...

 

[Mathew S]

Manchester to Scotland, if via Wigan, needn't stop there. It has good connections already (from the Euston main and Euston/B'ham) - and journey times could be improved.

That said, if Euston-Glasgows begin to run fast to Preston, given other Euston-Lancashire services that might be the plan.

Whereas Bolton needs the service, full stop, not being on a mainline. And mainly to Manchester and Preston - other points being added bonuses.

The TPE Scotlands will have to continue via Wigan for the moment at least since electric trains need electricity to run. Non stopping then from Picadilly to Preston had already been discussed on here and only works if an alternative fast service between Wigan to Manchester via Chat Moss is put in. It was planned that this would be the Manchester-Cumbria service, but of course that's now up in the air.

 

[WatcherZero]

Of course also relies on the track being clear, if your timetabled to be held up you might as well call at the station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The TPE Scotlands will have to continue via Wigan for the moment at least since electric trains need electricity to run. Non stopping then from Picadilly to Preston had already been discussed on here and only works if an alternative fast service between Wigan to Manchester via Chat Moss is put in.

Why does that *have* to be via Chat Moss? In the 1990s it was via Bolton and Westhoughton (the Windermere service). The curve to the WCML from Chat Moss (I forget what that's called - Parkside?) had a once a week Saturday morning Parly only, I think I did it once.

 

[Mathew S]

Why does that *have* to be via Chat Moss? In the 1990s it was via Bolton and Westhoughton (the Windermere service).

Timings, bluntly. The franchise commitment is to a 1tph sub-30 minute service, which is too fast for via Bolton.

Yes, it's Parkside. The service at present is the TPE Scottish trains. They only run via Wigan because they're 350s and need wires.

Whilst it would, theoretically, be possible to run a fast service via Bolton, you'd effectively be stealing a path from a semi-fast or stopping service which runs at present.

Additionally, keeping the 1tph service via Chat Moss allows for the fast service, adds capacity in the form of one extra train, and eases overcrowding on the Wigan via Bolton services by separating Wigan and Bolton communters onto different trains.

 

[thealexweb]

Timings, bluntly. The franchise commitment is to a 1tph sub-30 minute service, which is too fast for via Bolton.

This long disproved concept that the Bolton route is too slow keeps coming back time and time again for some reason. A Manchester to Preston service timed for a Class 185 calling at a single stop (Bolton or Wigan) is historically two minutes faster via Bolton. This was before the Bolton corridor was essentially rebuilt so the time savings running via Bolton will probably grow even more thanks to 100mph running etc. To summarise: the route via Golburne Junction is slower and longer.

 

[Mathew S]

This long disproved concept that the Bolton route is too slow keeps coming back time and time again for some reason. A Manchester to Preston service timed for a Class 185 calling at a single stop (Bolton or Wigan) is historically two minutes faster via Bolton. This was before the Bolton corridor was essentially rebuilt so the time savings running via Bolton will probably grow even more thanks to 100mph running etc. To summarise: the route via Golburne Junction is slower and longer.

I didn't say that the Bolton corridor was too slow. It's not. And as you say, with the improvements already done and (hopefully one day) electrification from Wigan - Lostock, running a sub-30 minute service via Bolton should be more than possible.

The present semi-fast Wigan-Bolton-Victoria service, which extends to Stalybridge, would be just as fast as the Chat Moss trains but for the pootling along at the end of the route. Stopping at Salford Crescent & Central, with a 3/4 minute wait at one of them, presumably because of congestion at Victoria, makes the service slower. And unfortunately, there is no westbound fast service via Bolton at present, with everything making additional stops between Bolton and Wigan.

More importantly, though, running hourly fast services with the first stop in Wigan actually helps ease overcrowding by separating the Bolton and Wigan commuters onto different trains. And, as I see it, running via Golborne is the easiest way to do that without stealing a path from a Bolton service.

 

[northwichcat]

Why does that *have* to be via Chat Moss? In the 1990s it was via Bolton and Westhoughton (the Windermere service). The curve to the WCML from Chat Moss (I forget what that's called - Parkside?) had a once a week Saturday morning Parly only, I think I did it once.

It was diverted to make use of new overhead electrics, so that 185s were freed up for other services. The alternative would have been to order more diesel trains for extra capacity.

 

[Ianno87]

This long disproved concept that the Bolton route is too slow keeps coming back time and time again for some reason. A Manchester to Preston service timed for a Class 185 calling at a single stop (Bolton or Wigan) is historically two minutes faster via Bolton. This was before the Bolton corridor was essentially rebuilt so the time savings running via Bolton will probably grow even more thanks to 100mph running etc. To summarise: the route via Golburne Junction is slower and longer.

Bolton is faster.... only if you can get a decent path in amongst the myriad of stopping patterns and flat junctions!

 

[cle]

Not all services will call at Bolton. These services won't be available for travel from Manchester to Bolton.

I have been saying this over and over for what feels like a couple of years, but it comes back again and again.

Please don't assume everybody sees every post/thread, or indeed recalls/follows your content for 'a couple of years'. How self-important. I've never even noticed you as a poster.

This whole situation with Northern wires, EMUs, TPE and Ordsall is incredibly changeable, so surely the odd repeat in topic is valid. Bolton/Wigan being a perfect example! If it has you clutching your pearls, just pay no attention.

 

[Starmill]

Every time Bolton and TransPennine Scotland services is mentioned, which must be about twice a week and has been ongoing for an incredibly long time now, the same long boring debate ensues. Most of the time it is someone other than me who points out that the train requirements don't call for that many calls at Bolton and that they may be designated as pick up and set down only as appropriate. Still, in that context, I have mentioned it a lot. I completely understand that not everyone reads every thread, but this topic has been so pervasive and repetitive over the years I am surprised you have missed it until now.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I'm right in assuming that the main reason for the moving of TPE Scottish service to route via Bolton is that Wigan already has Scottish services meaning that the TPE essentially becomes a commuter train?

 

[coxxy]

Not all services will call at Bolton. These services won't be available for travel from Manchester to Bolton.

I have been saying this over and over for what feels like a couple of years, but it comes back again and again.

With it being 20 mph on approach to Bolton and then only 40 mph through it a train may as well stop.

 

[Mathew S]

I'm right in assuming that the main reason for the moving of TPE Scottish service to route via Bolton is that Wigan already has Scottish services meaning that the TPE essentially becomes a commuter train?

Probably not the main reason, but it is certainly a problem. The morning services into Manchester particularly.

With it being 20 mph on approach to Bolton and then only 40 mph through it a train may as well stop.

Agree, but remains to be seen how effective the pickup/set down restrictions are for the trains which do stop. If they start becoming Bolton commuter trains then non-stopping them in the peaks may actually be a better option.