Is Heathrow Express a good use of resources?

[matt_world2004]

I think what you are trying to suggest is that if Train service A carries 50 passengers a day and Train service B carries 100 passengers a day then A isn't necessary. But what if Service A earns twice as much as B and returns a bigger premium to the DfT so easing the load on the taxpayer? What would you do then?

Hex doesnt pay a bigger premium to the taxpayer based on higher revenue per mile. Hex pays a flat fee to NR for track access and electricity usage. Plus a rental fee for paddington

 

[coppercapped]

Hex doesnt pay a bigger premium to the taxpayer based on higher revenue per mile.

Sometimes I despair...

Firstly, do you know what HEx pays Network Rail? (Hint: its deal predates - as I have written before - all the concepts of the present railway. What it actually pays may have no resemblance at all the published figures for Fixed Access Charges, etc. Neither you nor I are privy to the details).

Secondly - it was clear from the context that I was writing about a hypothetical situation where the ORR was adjudicating between two applicants wanting to run trains. It had little or nothing to do with HEx/Crossrail/HAL/NR directly.

 

[matt_world2004]

Secondly - it was clear from the context that I was writing about a hypothetical situation where the ORR was adjudicating between two applicants wanting to run trains. It had little or nothing to do with HEx/Crossrail/HAL/NR directly.

So what relevence did it have for the thread? And yes we know that heathrow express does not pay higher track access charges based on ticket revenue because track access charges are available on the network rail website.

 

[coppercapped]

So what relevence did it have for the thread? And yes we know that heathrow express does not pay higher track access charges based on ticket revenue because track access charges are available on the network rail website.

If you had been following the thread it would have been clear that I was trying to answer some points raised by JamesRowden.

Please try to understand that because NR's charges for franchised, freight and open access operators are published it does NOT mean that these are the charges paid by HEx as the original HEx contract predates the privatised railway and the whole charging regime. HEx was never part of BR so it was not included in the 1993 Railways Act. It MIGHT be that HEx pays these charges - but equally it might not.

 

[matt_world2004]

If you had been following the thread it would have been clear that I was trying to answer some points raised by JamesRowden.

Please try to understand that because NR's charges for franchised, freight and open access operators are published it does NOT mean that these are the charges paid by HEx as the original HEx contract predates the privatised railway and the whole charging regime. HEx was never part of BR so it was not included in the 1993 Railways Act. It MIGHT be that HEx pays these charges - but equally it might not.

Can you please explain to me how a contract dated 2005 and linked to in this thread on your request was signed prior to 1993?

Heathrow express paid £4.31 per train per mile in track access charges, this does not include the rent for paddington which is £1.9 million split between all operators based on frequency of services at the station

 

[coppercapped]

Can you please explain to me how a contract dated 2005 and linked to in this thread on your request was signed prior to 1993?

Heathrow express paid £4.31 per train per mile in track access charges, this does not include the rent for paddington which is £1.9 million split between all operators based on frequency of services at the station

Dead easy.

Because it is stated on the first page of the contract dated 2005:

WHEREAS:

1. (A) Network Rail is the owner of the Network; and
   
   
2. (B) Network Rail has been directed by ORR to grant to the Train Operator permission to use certain track comprised in the Network on the terms and conditions of this contract which rights and obligations under this contract shall be distinct from and in addition to any rights which the Train Operator may have or obligations to which the Train Operator may be subject under the Unregulated Agreement.

My emphasis. 'Unregulated agreement' is defined as

“Unregulated Agreement” means a track access agreement entered into between British Railways Board and Heathrow Airport Limited dated 16 August 1993, as amended from time to time in respect of passenger services;

So the original contract is still in force, but modified by the later ones.

Happy?

 

[matt_world2004]

Dead easy.

Because it is stated on the first page of the contract dated 2005:


My emphasis. 'Unregulated agreement' is defined as



So the original contract is still in force, but modified by the later ones.

Happy?

So who gets the hypotehtical revenue from this ticket sharing agreement that you think exists? Network rail didnt exist then . network south east and intercity has been split into different tocs and the british railways board is a shell organisation now.

 

[coppercapped]

Did I suggest there is or was a ticket sharing agreement?

When you are in a hole, stop digging.

 

[matt_world2004]

Did I suggest there is or was a ticket sharing agreement?

When you are in a hole, stop digging.

Well that is the only way I can forsee a share of the premium fares income getting back to the dft

 

[coppercapped]

Well that is the only way I can forsee a share of the premium fares income getting back to the dft

What has the DfT got to do with it?

 

[matt_world2004]

What has the DfT got to do with it?

Well for the premium fare to have an infkuence on the orrs decision a share of it would have to be either returned to the dft or network rail for reinvestment back into the rail network. Hex pay £4.32 per train per mile in track access charges so it is not going to network rail..

 

[Clarence Yard]

Well for the premium fare to have an infkuence on the orrs decision a share of it would have to be either returned to the dft or network rail for reinvestment back into the rail network. Hex pay £4.32 per train per mile in track access charges so it is not going to network rail..

That’s not how it’s works. You don’t give your revenue to the DfT or NR. You should only pay for the short run incremental costs of your trains operating on NR.

 

[matt_world2004]

That’s not how it’s works. You don’t give your revenue to the DfT or NR. You should only pay for the short run incremental costs of your trains operating on NR.

Yes thats the point I was trying to make to coppercapped,

 

[coppercapped]

Yes thats the point I was trying to make to coppercapped,

It is quite possible that the original agreement between BR and BAA/HAL foresaw a payment which - because HEx was a premium service - was greater than than which would be expected under the current regime. We don't know for certain because the agreement has not been made public.

How confident are you of the figure of £4.32 per train per mile? The 2005 contract referred to earlier describes the charging regime in Schedule 7: Track Charges and other payments. If you can work out from that what the actual payments are, you are a better man than me. I would however point out that APPENDIX 7C Default Train Consist Data includes the following:

Date of Train Movement:1 June 2005 to the Expiry Date of contract

Formation of Vehicles: Desiro 360/2 = 2 x Power Car and 2 x Trailers

As Heathrow Connect started operation in June 2005 I would conclude that this contract has nothing whatever to do with HEx, but a lot to do with Heathrow Connect.

 

[matt_world2004]

It is quite possible that the original agreement between BR and BAA/HAL foresaw a payment which - because HEx was a premium service.

The only evidence for this is in your head there is no evidenxe for this anywhere else.the contract specifies two services . a hayes and harlington to heathrow airport shuttle and direct services between paddington and heathrow airport. I would conclude the hayes and harlington to heathrow airport shuttle is the heathrow connect. The heathrow connect doesnt need an open access agreement between Hayes & paddington because between Hayes & Paddingtonnits a franchised service using gwr track access agreements. The 4.32 is whats listed on the orr website for heathrow express track access fees.

​

 

[Bald Rick]

The Government doesn’t allocate paths. That is the job of the ORR. If they came up for grabs I can imagine quite a few people wanting them, not just the DfT franchise.

The ORR doesn't allocate paths either. That is the job of Network Rail.

The ORR simply approves access rights (not paths) that have been agreed between NR and the operator. The ORR also adjudicates in the event of a dispute between NR and an operator that results in an operator not being granted the access rights it is seeking.

 

[HowardGWR]

I wonder what reduced level of patronage would result in HAL giving up running Hex, regardless of the length of contract it now enjoys, if Crossrail sucks a large proportion away.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The ORR doesn't allocate paths either. That is the job of Network Rail.

The ORR simply approves access rights (not paths) that have been agreed between NR and the operator. The ORR also adjudicates in the event of a dispute between NR and an operator that results in an operator not being granted the access rights it is seeking.

Poor phrasing - apologies. Also a bit of very old gittery on my part going back to the days of departure and arrival slots in your schedule 5 which together with hard wired stopping patterns and journey time protection mean’t the ORR effectively did in a disputed application (which mine have always been) allocate you the path! Then NR (or RT before it) had to timetable you accordingly.

Now those protections have gone NR are in a much stronger position and are able to use flex to give you a path that best fits the network rather than having to cope afterwards with pre determined hard wiring. In a crowded network, probably a better outcome.

 

[hwl]

I wonder what reduced level of patronage would result in HAL giving up running Hex, regardless of the length of contract it now enjoys, if Crossrail sucks a large proportion away.

I think Heathrow will want to see Crossrail up and running reliably before they make any decisions on HEx. If there are major signalling integration or other issues with Crossrail especially the additional T5 services, Heathrow won't want to have pulled the plug on HEx...

 

[Agent_Squash]

If HEX is a waste of capacity because of Crossrail, why not just use newer 110mph units and slash the fares? Genuine competition would do Heathrow well.

 

[Ianno87]

If HEX is a waste of capacity because of Crossrail, why not just use newer 110mph units and slash the fares? Genuine competition would do Heathrow well.

Summary of discussion previously:
-HEx spends very little time at 100mph as it is. 110mph would save a handful of secons at best (3 seconds per mile it can be sustained - and Airport Jn to the Paddington buffers is only 9 miles as it is)
-HEx is not really competing with other rail, it is competing with Taxis. Their passengers are business people getting off long flights who don't care how much they pay to get to Central London (Zone 1) quickly and hassle-free.

 

[SaveECRewards]

Personally I find the HEX reasonably priced (for what it is) when I use a Network Railcard discount (I rarely travel in the peak period where the railcard wouldn't be valid). That said it becomes much less useful for me when Crossrail launches.

The Heathrow Express:
- Does offer a notable time saving over the Heathrow Connect, although depending on where you start from the Tube may not be any slower when you take into account getting to Paddington for the HEX. I still prefer the HEX to the Tube even though the TfL journey planner says from where I live the door to door time on the tube is only about 10 minutes longer, this is because the HEX is more comfortable and has better luggage space. The Gatwick Express offers no real time benefit.
- It does have a more premium feel, the standard class seats have antimacassars and there's mood lighting by the doors and TV. The Gatwick Express has the same seats as any other Southern train (although they're in red, as VTEC will tell you that's important)
- If you're crazy enough to pay first class* for such a short journey you get one of the most spacious 1st class seats around in a 1x1 configuration. The Gatwick Express uses the same first class as other Southern trains (same seats as standard)
* To be fair they do offer free upgrades to certain top tier frequent flyers and also four upgrades a year for Heathrow Rewards premium tier customers so not everyone in first class is paying a fortune.

So although the Heathrow Express is expensive compared to the other public transport options at least it does offer some benefits over the other options, that's something I can't say about the Gatwick Express.

 

[Clip]

When I land at Heathrow its simply the quickest to get me home in north east London with 2 changes. I'm probably in me house by the time the Piccadilly gets even close to a vic line station so why wouldn't I use it - coming home and wanting to be there as quick as possible is rather important to me over the costs - especially if I have work the next day

 

[Mikey C]

The Heathrow Express:
- Does offer a notable time saving over the Heathrow Connect, although depending on where you start from the Tube may not be any slower when you take into account getting to Paddington for the HEX. I still prefer the HEX to the Tube even though the TfL journey planner says from where I live the door to door time on the tube is only about 10 minutes longer, this is because the HEX is more comfortable and has better luggage space. The

A lot of that is down to the poorer frequency of the HCon, waiting 25 minutes for the slow train when a HEx one is about to depart makes it tempting to cough up the extra. When the Crossrail trains operate 6 trains an hour to Heathrow Central, chances are they'll be the first to arrive!

 

[mrmartin]

Yes I can't see HEX surviving after crossrail.

Everyone I know that takes HEX gets a taxi at paddington. Even if you're not cost sensitive you might as well beat the brutal central london traffic and almost certainly be closer to your destination.

Assuming there is good branding at LHR for crossrail so people know it exists...

 

[sarahj]

Funny reading this discussion as I've just booked a couple of nights away in Hamburg (gotta finally see mini wunderland) and I'm going with BA so that means Heathrow. Last time I flew from there was in 2000 to LAX where I got the train from Acton Mainline to Pad. Checked my bag in then got the HEX to LHR. This time round I'm coming from Brighton and need to be there for around 9.30-10.00. HEX wont accept my privs (I think) and getting from Vic to Pad is slow, so looks like its Distruct to Hammersmith, then Piccalilli to Term 5. I'm looking to get into Vic for about 8.30 at the latest and will prob just just contactless. Will be interesting. Of course when the lizzie line opens, TL to Farringdon. Lizzie to Heathrow.

 

[matt_world2004]

Funny reading this discussion as I've just booked a couple of nights away in Hamburg (gotta finally see mini wunderland) and I'm going with BA so that means Heathrow. Last time I flew from there was in 2000 to LAX where I got the train from Acton Mainline to Pad. Checked my bag in then got the HEX to LHR. This time round I'm coming from Brighton and need to be there for around 9.30-10.00. HEX wont accept my privs (I think) and getting from Vic to Pad is slow, so looks like its Distruct to Hammersmith, then Piccalilli to Term 5. I'm looking to get into Vic for about 8.30 at the latest and will prob just just contactless. Will be interesting. Of course when the lizzie line opens, TL to Farringdon. Lizzie to Heathrow.

Hex accepts privs

 

[Ianno87]

Yes I can't see HEX surviving after crossrail.

Everyone I know that takes HEX gets a taxi at paddington. Even if you're not cost sensitive you might as well beat the brutal central london traffic and almost certainly be closer to your destination.

Assuming there is good branding at LHR for crossrail so people know it exists...

Taxis can take you right to the front door of your office/whatever. Even the Elizabeth Line can't do that (especially remembering that the stations will be huge in some cases).

 

[Mikey C]

Taxis can take you right to the front door of your office/whatever. Even the Elizabeth Line can't do that (especially remembering that the stations will be huge in some cases).

It'll be interesting if Crossrail changes habits, with people using public transport to access Crossrail or even taxis to get to inner London Crossrail stations.

Paddington is hardly an easy taxi ride from Central London or the City, Liverpool Street for example may be easier

 

[Bromley boy]

Taxis can take you right to the front door of your office/whatever. Even the Elizabeth Line can't do that (especially remembering that the stations will be huge in some cases).

How long does a taxi take from Paddington to central London versus Crossrail to somewhere more central and a taxi from there?