Proof of age for a 15 year old

[Nick66]

Probably worrying about something that isn’t a problem but my daughter is a bit nervous so some advice would be welcome.

My daughter will be travelling alone on VTEC tomorrow. She is 15 and travelling on a child ticket although she is almost 16 and looks older. She is out of school for a valid educational reason with the authority of her Head Teacher. She is worried what might happen if she is questioned about her age and why she isn’t in school. She has an 11-15 Zip card but that doesn’t have a date of birth on so she could conceivably be 16. I advised her to take her Tyne and Wear bus pass which does have a date of birth on to show if requested and if she is asked why she isn’t in school to say politely that it isn’t any of their business and if there is any problem to phone me an hand the phone to the Train Manager. Is this sound advice?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Very sound advice. Do you trust her with her passport?

 

[Nick66]

Probably but surely a passport would be a bit OTT if she has a bus pass with her DOB?

 

[najaB]

I advised her to take her Tyne and Wear bus pass which does have a date of birth on to show if requested and if she is asked why she isn’t in school to say politely that it isn’t any of their business and if there is any problem to phone me an hand the phone to the Train Manager. Is this sound advice?

It's sound advice, but remember that at the end of the day the onus is on a TOC to prove your daughter isn't entitled to use a child ticket, not for her to prove that she is.

 

[gray1404]

Bus pass with her date of birth on is enough. If they ask why she is out of school, it is correct that it is none of their business and she is entitled to assert such. However, for the sake of conflict avoidance, she could give a vague answer without really answering. "travelling to an educational event." or whatever. I highly doubt that will be asked though.

 

[_toommm_]

I always used to take my Megatravel pass (a bus pass for South Yorkshire which proved I was 11-15) and a screenshot of the relevant website which proves age entitlement for that pass.

I also checked with the guard before boarding to make sure I was okay to travel with that proof of age (especially on longer distance operator's who might not know about my particular proof of age).

 

[gray1404]

You cannot receive a penalty fare on VTEC.

I would also not recommend "checking with the guard" before boarding as it just draws attention to the situation and actually gives them an opportunity to say no. Given she is doing nothing wrong best just boarding like any other passenger and encountering a regular ticket check.

 

[Nick66]

Thanks everyone, I think she probably looks in the 16-19 age range, I was recently refused entry to a bar with her before a football match where children are allowed because she wasn’t “clearly underage” and they didn’t want to ID at the bar to save time. I’ll be meeting her off the train anyway so will be able to sort it out if there are any issues. She’s just a bit nervous that’s all, a bit like her Dad all those years ago!

 

[gray1404]

Out of interest, which bar was this? Don't mean to go off topic but that sounds really bad - "you don't look too young or too old so we can't let you in and we can't be bothered to look at your ID so we'll refuse you."

 

[Hadders]

There really is no need to worry. There is no requirement for a passenger on a VTEC train to carry ID to prove they are under 16. That said if your daughter has a bus pass with her DOB on it then it will be helpful in the event of a query.

To be honest there's a chance there won't even be a ticket check if some reports on here are to be believed.

tell your daughter to enjoy her day out, including the journey.

 

[Nick66]

Out of interest, which bar was this? Don't mean to go off topic but that sounds really bad - "you don't look too young or too old so we can't let you in and we can't be bothered to look at your ID so we'll refuse you."

For what it’s worth it was the Terrace Bar in the Newcastle United Stadium. Gets busy so they didn’t want to be checking IDs at the bar. Had a chat with the doorman, not an issue, had to pay 20p more for a pint in the ground, not a problem. Why I’m still going there after 40 years may be more of a problem!

 

[robbeech]

If the train starts at Newcastle theres a higher chance of a ticket check as there is often a crew change there. However as others have mentioned there is nothing to worry about.
In the very unlikely event there is a problem and the bus pass is not accepted then tell her to accept what they say, be polite, but don’t pay them any money. It can be sorted out afterwards (we would help).
Enjoy the trip!

 

[_toommm_]

You cannot receive a penalty fare on VTEC.

I would also not recommend "checking with the guard" before boarding as it just draws attention to the situation and actually gives them an opportunity to say no. Given she is doing nothing wrong best just boarding like any other passenger and encountering a regular ticket check.

There's nothing wrong with checking with the guard - ultimately they are the one who say yes or no, and some guards (as we've seen on this very forum) can be quite unscrupulous (the nicest way to put it). Checking with the guard shows a level of honesty that you're validly travelling on a child ticket.

 

[bb21]

Bus pass with her date of birth on is enough. If they ask why she is out of school, it is correct that it is none of their business and she is entitled to assert such. However, for the sake of conflict avoidance, she could give a vague answer without really answering. "travelling to an educational event." or whatever. I highly doubt that will be asked though.

I never quite understand the need for such a confrontational response if asked such a question. The railway do have a special responsibility towards a minor's welfare. Confrontational responses from a minor such as "none of your business" are good reasons for alarm bells to start ringing.

A simple explanation of why, eg. I have a family function or whatever it is, would normally suffice, and if there were any concerns, the company could always contact the parent.

In short, confrontational responses from a minor, no no. Totally pointless.

 

[bb21]

There's nothing wrong with checking with the guard - ultimately they are the one who say yes or no, and some guards (as we've seen on this very forum) can be quite unscrupulous (the nicest way to put it). Checking with the guard shows a level of honesty that you're validly travelling on a child ticket.

I would agree with gray1404 here. There is no point checking with the guard before boarding, especially when she has suitable photographic ID with her DOB on in any case.

 

[_toommm_]

I would agree with gray1404 here. There is no point checking with the guard before boarding, especially when she has suitable photographic ID with her DOB on in any case.

But as I said, some guards can be unscrupulous - would you rather the child be denied boarding at the origin station (which she'll more than likely know) and subsequently be given an apology and allowed on the next train; or the guard taking a disliking to the proof of age and chucking the child off at the next stop.

Yes it sounds ridiculous but it's happened before and will undoubtedly happen again

 

[bb21]

I would take a chance on the latter every single time if those were the options, especially if the dispute is solely about age, and if the customer had suitable other proof.

 

[gray1404]

-

There's nothing wrong with checking with the guard - ultimately they are the one who say yes or no, and some guards (as we've seen on this very forum) can be quite unscrupulous (the nicest way to put it). Checking with the guard shows a level of honesty that you're validly travelling on a child ticket.

I stand by my statement that if someone is travelling on a valid child ticket and they are under 16 then they do not need to check with the guard before boarding. They can simply wait for a normal ticket check and, in this case, show her bus pass if asked.

But as I said, some guards can be unscrupulous - would you rather the child be denied boarding at the origin station (which she'll more than likely know) and subsequently be given an apology and allowed on the next train; or the guard taking a disliking to the proof of age and chucking the child off at the next stop.

Yes it sounds ridiculous but it's happened before and will undoubtedly happen again

Yes it does sound a bit over the top. As I repeat, they can just wait for the usual ticket check and have their ID. It is highly unlikely that the guard will turf the 15 year old off at the next stop and I highly doubt any guard would refuse a bus pass with her ID on it.

I never quite understand the need for such a confrontational response if asked such a question. The railway do have a special responsibility towards a minor's welfare. Confrontational responses from a minor such as "none of your business" are good reasons for alarm bells to start ringing.

A simple explanation of why, eg. I have a family function or whatever it is, would normally suffice, and if there were any concerns, the company could always contact the parent.

In short, confrontational responses from a minor, no no. Totally pointless.

I agree with you. No need for a confrontational response. That's why I suggested giving something of a reply rather then refusing to answer any questions thus avoiding conflict. It is so unlikely that the guard would ask anyway and, if they did, it might just be polite conversation being friendly.

 

[gray1404]

If there was a problem, which I don't think there will be (moreover in light of the fact the bus pass is being carried) then surely VTEC would either report the passenger - giving them a slip to enable to journey to be completed - or issue an Unpaid Fares Notice which again can be used to finish the journey. In both cases suitable proof of age can be provided later. These are both HIGHLY UNLIKELY and I really think there is no issue here.

 

[Hadders]

I would not check with the guard before boarding. If an 'unscrupulous' was to say no what happens next? The OP's daughter would be going nowhere.

Far better to simply get on, relax and enjoy the journey and deal with any issue later, which the OP's daughter will unquestionable be able to do.

 

[AlterEgo]

Bus pass with her date of birth on is enough. If they ask why she is out of school, it is correct that it is none of their business and she is entitled to assert such. However, for the sake of conflict avoidance, she could give a vague answer without really answering. "travelling to an educational event." or whatever. I highly doubt that will be asked though.

It is their business to ask why a schoolgirl is out of school on a school day. It is basic duty of care.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is their business to ask why a schoolgirl is out of school on a school day. It is basic duty of care.

They don’t have that duty of care per-se. The railway is not a supervised travelling environment.

 

[AlterEgo]

I never quite understand the need for such a confrontational response if asked such a question. The railway do have a special responsibility towards a minor's welfare. Confrontational responses from a minor such as "none of your business" are good reasons for alarm bells to start ringing.

A simple explanation of why, eg. I have a family function or whatever it is, would normally suffice, and if there were any concerns, the company could always contact the parent.

In short, confrontational responses from a minor, no no. Totally pointless.

If I was a guard, and a minor told me “none of your business” when I asked what they were doing out of school on a school day, I would ring control and the police. You’ve no idea the minor isn’t off to run away with a “boyfriend”, or any other sticky situation a child could find themselves in.

The minor should simply present their ticket and proof of age, and also carry something with them to show why they’re travelling (if it’s for an educational reason, I assume there’s a letter or some form of joining instructions?). Failing that as the OP suggested, just carry a mobile phone so Dad can handle it.

The confrontational approach favoured by a small minority of posters isn’t likely to work and is very unhelpful advice.

 

[AlterEgo]

They don’t have that duty of care per-se. The railway is not a supervised travelling environment.

You can have a duty of care towards people not under your supervision. Granted, it isn’t the same as if you were escorting schoolchildren on an outing, but a lot of staff are told to look out for unaccompanied minors in potentially suspicious circumstances.

I would certainly ask a minor what they were doing unsupervised out of school on a school day. No doubt 99% of them would give a satisfactory answer. 1% would ring alarm bells.

 

[100andthirty]

If I was asked by a guard "why are you travelling?", I would be irritated and might give a sharp answer. If asked "off to anywhere nice today?" I would probably respond to the "banter of daily life" and give a different response. I am a lot older than 15!

 

[PeterC]

I was just thinking how much I had used public transport on my own at the age of 15. Of course then it was with an adult ticket and I could legally have left school anyway.

 

[cuccir]

I wouldn't suggest checking with the Guard before boarding (what does she do if they say no?!?) but even then there's a context: A VTEC train will be an HST - guards move up and down this and can be anywhere along 9 very long coaches! If the train has come from elsewhere, there's no way of knowing where the guard will be, and even if the train starts its journey in Newcastle, the guard could be doing any number of duties, and could be anywhere along the train. Even on a quiet platform, it's a good couple of minutes walk up the length of the train: I just don't see it as practical.

By contrast, if it's (say) a single 3 carriage 185 or anything smaller, then it is at least a more practical option.

 

[cuccir]

The confrontational approach favoured by a small minority of posters isn’t likely to work and is very unhelpful advice.

I agree with this - a polite question should be met by a polite answer!

 

[northwichcat]

There's nothing wrong with checking with the guard - ultimately they are the one who say yes or no

The guard needs a good reason to say no e.g. invalid ticket, not complying with conditions of travel, train too full to board etc.

 

[northwichcat]

The minor should simply present their ticket and proof of age, and also carry something with them to show why they’re travelling

I don't agree. Carrying proof of age isn't a requirement but if she has something then it's useful to carry in case the guard questions whether she should be travelling on a child ticket.

(if it’s for an educational reason, I assume there’s a letter or some form of joining instructions?)

Again no requirement to carry that but if questioned why not just tell the guard her name, her school and the name of the teacher who authorised the absence. If the guard is concerned that's enough information to check and if he/she does check and finds the information to be false then the police could be informed.