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Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

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NotATrainspott

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Apologies if this is already somewhere else but I noticed that the Transport Minister was at a presentation at Holyrood today about possible re-opening of Beattock Station.

Is this a realistic re-opening?

https://twitter.com/beattockstation/status/958776658831593473

Only if there is capacity on the WCML for a train to stop. I don't think we'll see ScotRail services heading down that way until there are high speed bypasses available. TPE going to 110/125mph EMUs might make it easier - Carstairs to Lockerbie non-stop at 100mph might be around the same time at 110-125mph with a stop at Beattock.
 
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47271

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Apologies if this is already somewhere else but I noticed that the Transport Minister was at a presentation at Holyrood today about possible re-opening of Beattock Station.

Is this a realistic re-opening?

https://twitter.com/beattockstation/status/958776658831593473
Oh, it's a serious campaign albeit with a not entirely updated website.

http://www.beattockstationactiongroup.org.uk

Given the strategic position of Beattock within the region - M74 crosses with both A701 and high speed railway, then it makes a lot more sense than some suggested Scottish schemes.
 

oldman

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Apart from serving the Greater Moffat metropolitan area, what would it do that Lockerbie doesn't?
 

Photohunter71

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My view is that the last study put too much emphasis on Penicuik rather than finding the most viable routes that best serve Midlothian in general.

I think something like Shawfair, Sherifhall P&R, Gilmerton, Loanhead, Roslin Institute, Roslin, Gowkley Moss for Penicuik, Easter Bush could do excellent business. Lots or reverse commuting, serves the major Midlothian employers better but with Park and Rides and bus connections for Penicuik itself.

Getting to central Penicuik is impossible at a reasonable financial and political cost so think differently instead.
I'd definitely opt for the connection via Gilmerton, it makes sense and besides, isn't the route via Danderhall pretty much untouched?
 

railjock

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I'd definitely opt for the connection via Gilmerton, it makes sense and besides, isn't the route via Danderhall pretty much untouched?
The are breaches, the first being the borders railway. The main issue with the original route is the demolition of glencourse viaduct several years back and the solum has also been built on in Roslin. Quite a few obstacles and I am not sure how you would actually get it into Penicuik. Would probably have to terminate at the edge of the town.
 

Altnabreac

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The are breaches, the first being the borders railway. The main issue with the original route is the demolition of glencourse viaduct several years back and the solum has also been built on in Roslin. Quite a few obstacles and I am not sure how you would actually get it into Penicuik. Would probably have to terminate at the edge of the town.

I believe the new Shawfair Avenue is also a breach of the alignment (ironically one carried out by Midlothian Council against an objection from landowner Sustrans). However the council did vow at the time to build a bridge here if required at zero cost to any rail promoter.

The big problem with coming in from the Loanhead side is that it is really difficult to get anywhere near the centre of Penicuik.
 

Class 170101

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If you can copy the article it might help as its behind a 'pay wall' or something like it.

However didn't NR do something like this at Workington North?
 

385001

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https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...ld-test-passenger-demand-say-greens-1-4681566

“Pop-up” rail stations should be built to test passenger demand at new stops, the Scottish Greens have urged.

The party said temporary halts would help make the case for permanent new stations.

Its MSPs are lobbying Scottish Government officials to consider the novel approach as part of a deal struck in return for supporting the minority SNP’s 2018-19 budget.

Finance secretary Derek Mackay has agreed to consider a new “pipeline” fund of up to £2 million to develop new stations and lines.

It was prompted by the Greens’ concern that no new rail projects have been proposed by Scottish Government agency Transport Scotland since it was created 12 years ago.

New stations on existing lines which have opened since 2006, such as Edinburgh Gateway and Laurencekirk, had been previously approved.

Consultants Allan Rail, run by former Transport Scotland rail official David Prescott, have suggested around 20 possible pop-up station sites across Scotland.

They are in addition to plans already being considered for stations at Beattock, Eastriggs and Thornhill in Dumfries and Galloway.

Other possible candidates include Dunragit or Glenluce on the Stranraer line, and on the lines east of Inverness.

Allan Rail has also proposed re-opening of the Dyce-Ellon line in Aberdeenshire, the Alloa-Dunfermline line, and branches to St Andrews and Levenmouth.

It said the Larkhall line could be extended to Stonehouse and Strathaven in South Lanarkshire.

Network Rail built a £300,000 temporary station in six days in Workington after the Cumbria floods in 2009 split the town in two.

It was constructed using scaffolding and planks, with a portable waiting room and gravel car park.

Conon Bridge in the Highlands, which opened in 2013 as one of Scotland’s smallest new stations, cost twice as much.

A temporary station was also built at Meadowbank Stadium in Edinburgh for the Commonwealth Games in 1986.

Scottish Greens environment spokesman Mark Ruskell said: “Pop-up stations would be another step towards reversing the legacy of the transport policies of the 1960s when rail lines were ripped up and the car was king.

“They would enable market testing of new stations and allow more robust business cases to be developed.

“It takes a long time for an idea to turn into a proposal, and for appraisals and feasibility studies to be approved.

”Local communities can now put their proposals forward, and temporary stations would be one of many practical options to progress ideas.”

Rail use in Scotland is at record levels, with underlying passenger growth over more than a decade pushing total annual journeys to almost 100 million.

New ScotRail trains this year will also significantly boost the number of services run.

A spokesperson for campaigners Railfuture said: “Although Scotland has seen many more reopenings than England in the last few years, getting any sort of new rail project off the ground is still frustratingly expensive and bureaucratic, so we welcome any moves to kick-start and ease this process.

“Network Rail has shown how it’s possible to open temporary stations at short notice, so it makes sense to try using pop-up stations to test demand.

“There are numerous examples in other industries of new products and services being test-driven, so why should the railways be any different?”

However, a rail industry source said: “£2m is not a lot of money if you want to open stations.

“Money would probably be best used helping local authorities and other groups on developing conventional business cases for stations.”

A Transport Scotland spokesperson said: “We are supportive of the development of new and innovative initiatives which deliver benefits for passengers, freight customers and local communities. We are aware of this proposal and are giving it consideration.”
 

clc

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“no new rail projects have been proposed by Scottish Government agency Transport Scotland since it was created 12 years ago”

I think this could be a stick which opponents will use to beat the Scottish Government with if Levenmouth doesn’t go ahead in CP6, especially if England is building new lines.
 

backontrack

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I like the suggestion of pop-up stations. Evanton, Wormit, Newtonhill, Mauchline and Cumnock would work particularly well.
 

47271

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“no new rail projects have been proposed by Scottish Government agency Transport Scotland since it was created 12 years ago”

I think this could be a stick which opponents will use to beat the Scottish Government with if Levenmouth doesn’t go ahead in CP6, especially if England is building new lines.
Is this true though? Aberdeen-Inverness upgrades for example, which include new stations at Dalcross and Kintore, were only approved in 2014. How much of EGIP existed before TS? I'm not sure, but just because The Scotsman says it...
 

Altnabreac

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Is this true though? Aberdeen-Inverness upgrades for example, which include new stations at Dalcross and Kintore, were only approved in 2014. How much of EGIP existed before TS? I'm not sure, but just because The Scotsman says it...

Depends if you define Rail Projects as being enhancements and new stations (in which case it isn’t true). Or line reopenings (in which case it is true).

Trouble is the list of viable reopenings is a fairly short one. Levenmouth certainly should be a priority scheme but beyond that you do start to struggle with business cases.

Strathaven might have been a decent case had the Stonehouse New Town gone ahead but on current settlement sizes it will struggle.

I’d rather see the Scottish Government put energy and resources into completely new lines to transform the rail network in Scotland with good business cases than reopen marginal branch lines. My list of priorities would be something like:
Dalmeny Chord
Arkleston - Cowlairs (not Carmuirs!) cross Glasgow tunnel
Inverkeithing - Halbeath - Bridge of Earn - St Madoes (possibly in phases)
Glasgow - Carstairs HSR
 
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Altnabreac

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As regards the pop up stations concept I’m not sure I’m in favour. You can’t build car parks, CCTV, ticket machines etc for that sort of money that really are needed these days as a minimum.

You won’t secure investment in new housing or attract people to move to an area and start commuting if the station is only temporary. So really you may just get some poorly performing stations that destroy business cases for new stations that might have worked if they were built properly.

Certainly on that list both Winchburgh and Auchenback have funding to reopen and are part of wider development strategies that just won’t work with a temporary station.

There are stations like Newburgh, South Ayr and Rhu where a Station reopening would likely only be viable with new service patterns and introducing those new services would likely be a bigger barrier than actually building a station.

And there are others like Kittybrewster where line capacity will mean no matter how cheap a Station is the timetable just won’t work.

A fund to help build business cases is a good idea. But once you have a positive business case you just need to get on and build a proper, permanent station.
 

Altnabreac

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Ah, that's more like it!:smile: Why Arkleston though?

Because at Arkleston you have enough space to grade separate the junction of the Inverclyde and Ayrshire lines as you enter a tunnel portal without needing to demolish property.

A proper grade separated junction there and four tracks through to Gilmour Street allows a big uplift in capacity and reliability.

For me that’s worth the extra tunnelling distance compared to a Shields Road portal and gives you options for stations at some / all of QEII Hospital, Govan (for Subway Interchange) and Hydro / Clydeside area.
 

clc

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Because at Arkleston you have enough space to grade separate the junction of the Inverclyde and Ayrshire lines as you enter a tunnel portal without needing to demolish property.

A proper grade separated junction there and four tracks through to Gilmour Street allows a big uplift in capacity and reliability.

For me that’s worth the extra tunnelling distance compared to a Shields Road portal and gives you options for stations at some / all of QEII Hospital, Govan (for Subway Interchange) and Hydro / Clydeside area.

A tunnel from Arkleston to Cowlairs would be hugely ambitious but it would cost £3-4 billion which is a crippling amount for the Scottish Government to fund from it’s capital budget over a relatively short period given it has limited borrowing powers. For the same money you could build the Shields to Cowlairs tunnel plus a new light rail system serving areas not covered by heavy rail. Phase it over 10-15 years so that financially it would be more manageable.
 

Railsigns

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I can see the sense in it, with new stations serving Govan and the QEUH, etc. and possibly even a short tunnelled branch line to Glasgow Airport. There doesn't seem to be much space around Cowlairs for a new grade separated junction compared to, say, Cadder where there's plenty of space.
 

JohnR

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Is this true though? Aberdeen-Inverness upgrades for example, which include new stations at Dalcross and Kintore, were only approved in 2014. How much of EGIP existed before TS? I'm not sure, but just because The Scotsman says it...
Certainly NESTRANS was talking about those two stations and other upgrades before Transport Scotland came into existence in 2007. EGIP was proposed in 2006 - Transport Scotland scaled it down, so you could argue its not the same scheme, but the core certainly is.
 

clc

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I can see the sense in it, with new stations serving Govan and the QEUH, etc. and possibly even a short tunnelled branch line to Glasgow Airport. There doesn't seem to be much space around Cowlairs for a new grade separated junction compared to, say, Cadder where there's plenty of space.

Govan is already served by the subway for rapid journeys to the city centre and West End.

If you want to serve the hospital a much cheaper option would be to build a tram line from Central Station. The route could head along the north bank and across the river to the hospital and beyond. The tram could interchange with heavy rail/subway at Partick and at Hillington East where you’d increase the number of trains stopping bearing in mind you’d have trains from Edinburgh etc coming that way through the Shields-Cowlairs tunnel.

Links to the hospital and SEC would be improved and it would stimulate loads of regeneration along the riverside.
 

NotATrainspott

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Certainly NESTRANS was talking about those two stations and other upgrades before Transport Scotland came into existence in 2007. EGIP was proposed in 2006 - Transport Scotland scaled it down, so you could argue its not the same scheme, but the core certainly is.

That's a problem with this metric of 'proposed' rail schemes. How often do novel rail schemes really get proposed? Transport exists to serve population and economic activity, and that rarely changes too dramatically. Between TS, NR and HS2 Ltd essentially every likely rail scheme in Scotland up until 2043 has been at least mentioned.
 

Railsigns

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Govan is already served by the subway for rapid journeys to the city centre and West End.

I know, but Altnabreac's suggested tunnel route would provide a new heavy rail/subway interchange at Govan.

If you want to serve the hospital a much cheaper option would be to build a tram line from Central Station. The route could head along the north bank and across the river to the hospital and beyond. The tram could interchange with heavy rail/subway at Partick and at Hillington East

For an even cheaper option, just keep the existing 77 bus route.
 

47271

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Depends if you define Rail Projects as being enhancements and new stations (in which case it isn’t true). Or line reopenings (in which case it is true).
Hmm, given that the piece is written in the context of pop up stations, not routes, then I'd say that it's quite misleading and unnecessarily implies criticism of Transport Scotland. Not that I'm surprised by The Scotsman, or particularly want to defend TS.
 

Altnabreac

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Hmm, given that the piece is written in the context of pop up stations, not routes, then I'd say that it's quite misleading and unnecessarily implies criticism of Transport Scotland. Not that I'm surprised by The Scotsman, or particularly want to defend TS.
I think the point which is definitely true is that there is a gap at the moment in responsibility and funding for rail schemes.

Transport Scotland looks at nationally important schemes like EGIP or High Speed Rail. Councils look at delivering small schemes with developer funding like Robroyston or Kintore.

Sometimes these overlap like at Airdrie - Bathgate with the Blackridge station project.

Medium sized schemes like Levenmouth and station reopenings without Developer funding sit in a bit of a no mans land without funding from either councils or TS.

This fund to help look at business cases is an excellent idea. Ultimately though medium sized schemes with good business cases will still need funded from somewhere as yet unidentified.
 

clc

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Altnabreac, I know you've previously talked about having 5 stations on the Arkleston-Cowlairs underground RER line, at the QE Hospital, Govan, SEC, Central and either High St or Glasgow Royal Infirmary. How about scaling it back to make it more affordable by omitting two of the stations, say Govan and High St/GRI or Govan and SEC?

7 miles of tunnel - £1.4 billion
City centre station £1 billion
2 further stations - £600 million
Grade separation at Arkleston - £100 million?
Total - £3.1 billion

I still think the Scottish Government would require more extensive borrowing powers to manage a single project of this scale and risk of cost overrun.
 

Highland37

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I would agree with CLC there about the powers. I also wonder if the culture of Scotland could handle such ambitious thinking. People understand big, visible projects. Tunnels and things like "increase capacity" are understood by those with an interest but the crucifying nature of the media means anyone with big ideas needs to be pretty brave to put them forward. Scotland is not exactly known in recent times for big ideas.
 
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