Hemel - Watford bus history

[spuddie]

I am wondering if anyone can help.

At the moment we have the 320 and 500 that operate between Hemel and Watford. The 320 going via Leverstock Green and the 500 via Kings Langley. I remember in my youth travelling to Hemel on the 300/734 and seeing the 322 and 344 being the routes to Watford, can anyone tell me which one would have been the Leverstock Green route and which was the Kings Langley?

I believe the route to Aylesbury used to be the 501 (originally the 301) but it merged with one of either the 322 or 344 to become the 500.

There also used to be a Sovereign 320 which I think ran from Hemel to St Albans like the 300 and then on to Watford like the 321/724.

Any information/corrections greatly appreciated.

 

[A0]

I am wondering if anyone can help.

At the moment we have the 320 and 500 that operate between Hemel and Watford. The 320 going via Leverstock Green and the 500 via Kings Langley. I remember in my youth travelling to Hemel on the 300/734 and seeing the 322 and 344 being the routes to Watford, can anyone tell me which one would have been the Leverstock Green route and which was the Kings Langley?

I believe the route to Aylesbury used to be the 501 (originally the 301) but it merged with one of either the 322 or 344 to become the 500.

There also used to be a Sovereign 320 which I think ran from Hemel to St Albans like the 300 and then on to Watford like the 321/724.

Any information/corrections greatly appreciated.

The 500/501 can actually trace it's lineage back to a couple of Green Line routes which were discontinued some years back - at least one of which was operated by London Country's Tring garage which closed in the mid 70s.

Take a look at www.40yearsonthebuses.blogspot.co.uk - the reminiscences of a former London Country / Green Line driver who worked out of Tring, Amersham and Hemel from the 70s onwards - that gives some information as to the routes which were being operated.

As an aside - of the two you mention as going into Hemel (though not Hemel to Watford) neither the 300 nor 734 were 'historically' routes to Hemel.

Quick potted history - the 300 number was a derivative of the 303 (Hitchin - Barnet) introduced when LCBS stopped suffixing routes with letters e.g. you'd have had the 303 and 303A which took slightly different routes but were Hitchin - Barnet.

The 'old' route from WGC / Hatfield - St Albans / Hemel was the 330, which at one point had the 320,330,340 as the numbers again having lost the suffixes.

In about 1987 London Country NE re-structured their routes and 'merged' the 300/303 by then Hitchin - Potters Bar, with the 340/341 Welwyn / Hatfield to St Albans and Hemel.

The 300 and 303 became Hitchin - Hemel and two new routes 330 and 333 operated WGC - St Albans (via South Hatfield) - The interworking of these mean you had a half hourly service from Hitchin - WGC, every 15 mins from Hatfield - St Albans and every 30 mins St Albans - Hemel.

The 734 was, in theory at least, a Green Line route. The number had been used as a Hitchin - London service. The route from Hitchin - Watford and Heathrow was the 733. At de-regulation it wasn't registered as commercial by LCNE and it passed to Armchair Passenger Transport. A couple of years later, following a re-tender, it was truncated to Watford and passed to Luton & District.

Sovereign (LCNE's successor) started to get a little more commercial in their outlook and withdrew the 303 and replaced it with a Hitchin - Watford 734, which led to the withdrawl of the HCC supported 733.

In due course Sovereign re-directed the 734 to Hemel and then renumbered it to 301. And both the 300 and 301 at different times were truncated to Stevenage rather than Hitchin.

 

[PeterC]

I have a 1968 timetable book for the Aylesbury / Tring / Chesham area.This won't have all Hemel or Watford services but the Aylesbury - Watford corridor had at that time:
301 - Hallf hourly. Ran direct on the (then) A41 not into Hemel town centre. Half hourly 7 days a week
706 |
707 | comboned 2ph service seven days a week Same route as 301 between Watford and Aylesbury

A 1967 bus map also shows route 302 starting in one of the Hemel estates and serving the town centre before picking up the 301 route at Two Waters.
There were also routes 322 and 322A starting at Hemel estates and running along the other side of the canal along Belswains Lane past Kings Langley station.
347 and 347A ran via Leverstock Green to Watford and Uxbridge. There was also a route 318 which appears to have been a circular Hemel, Leverstock Green, Watford, Croxley, Bovingdon, Hemel.

I bought a couple of old area timetables in a transport fare at 10,000% of the cover price! Sadly as a teenager I lost several battles with my mother about keeping various items of ephemera which are now collectors items or I would have had a few more.

 

[AM9]

And there were also the Express busses run by London Country. For St Albans there was the 803 between Welwyn and at sometime, all the way to Uxbridge.

 

[AndrewE]

For 5 years in the 2nd half of the 1960s I travelled to school on the 301c from Tring to Hemel. 301 went to Watford, the 301c turned left at Two Waters and went up into Hemel - to the Parade in fact. All RTs while I was travelling. After a few years our particular bus was extended on up to Warners End as a 312. Coming home it was walk to the Parade, bus (a 302?) to Two Waters and pick up a 301 north along the A41.
Northbound the 301 changed drivers at Two Waters and the engine was stopped... one driver used to pull away on the starter motor, letting the clutch in at the same time as the engine started.
I remember RFs working the Green Line [express] coaches from Tring on routes 706 and 707, also the intoduction of a 727 - to Heathrow airport I think. I have a feeling one of the coach routes started back from Aylesbury.

 

[PeterC]

For 5 years in the 2nd half of the 1960s I travelled to school on the 301c from Tring to Hemel. 301 went to Watford, the 301c turned left at Two Waters and went up into Hemel - to the Parade in fact. All RTs while I was travelling. After a few years our particular bus was extended on up to Warners End as a 312. Coming home it was walk to the Parade, bus (a 302?) to Two Waters and pick up a 301 north along the A41.
Northbound the 301 changed drivers at Two Waters and the engine was stopped... one driver used to pull away on the starter motor, letting the clutch in at the same time as the engine started.
I remember RFs working the Green Line [express] coaches from Tring on routes 706 and 707, also the intoduction of a 727 - to Heathrow airport I think. I have a feeling one of the coach routes started back from Aylesbury.

1967 map shows the 312 running from Northchurch to Water End. By 68 it was just a handful of journeys running from Tring according to the timetable although this is not shown on the map printed in the book. I don't have a full timetable for this route so I don't know if these were positioning journeys or the full service.
At the north end of the route the coaches were based at Tring in 1968 and, apart from the start and end of the day, started from Aylesbury.
IIRC the 727 started as a shuttle from Heathrow to Watford Junction. By 1967 it ran from Gatwick to Luton Station (but not to the airport) via Heathrow and Watford

 

[Busaholic]

The 719 Green Line route was introduced in 1956 between Hemel Hempstead and Victoria, Eccleston Bridge, rather late to the party and unusual in not being a cross-London route, operated by the classic RF coaches, later converted to Routemaster RMCs and then back to opo RFs in the late '60s. It was extended through to Wrotham in Kent in 1968 to replace the 717 over that section of route. It ran via Leverstock Green and Watford and was, I seem to remember, operated by Garston garage rather than Hemel.

 

[PeterC]

The 719 Green Line route was introduced in 1956 between Hemel Hempstead and Victoria, Eccleston Bridge, rather late to the party and unusual in not being a cross-London route, operated by the classic RF coaches, later converted to Routemaster RMCs and then back to opo RFs in the late '60s. It was extended through to Wrotham in Kent in 1968 to replace the 717 over that section of route. It ran via Leverstock Green and Watford and was, I seem to remember, operated by Garston garage rather than Hemel.

719 also ran via Cannons Park and Neasden rather than straight down the Edgeware Road from Stanmore. From Hemel the 708 started in the town centre and picked up the same route as the 706 / 707 from Two Waters until South Croydon.
After my previous post I have found some Green Line maps and timetables. 706/7/8 provided an impressive four coaches per hour between South Croydon and Two Waters
I was wrong about the 727, I have found a timetable announcing it as a new route from 13 May 1967. Judging by the short workings vehicles were based at St Albans and Reigate. For all the M25's faults it must be better than the haul through the south west suburbs that this route took between Heathrow and Gatwick.

 

[Busaholic]

I've no personal knowledge of the area: I once spent a weekend in Berkhamsted, but went by train. I'm embarrassed to say my closest proximity to Watford was on trains passing through Watford Junction, mostly without stopping.

This much I do know:-
The main Hemel to Watford routes over a long period were the 301 and 302, although from a thread above it seems the 301 may only have got to Two Waters before branching off. They were among the first London Transport routes, either Country or Central, to receive RTs in 1948, which I think then were on the route for 27 years or so! The 322 also traditionally linked the two towns, but via a different route: it terminated at Watford Junction, a distinction it shared with Central routes 142 and 158 (later the 258). From photos I've seen the 322 seems to have been mostly worked by single deckers, the RF being the vehicle of choice. In the early 1970s, with the proliferation of opo, a new route 452 was introduced between HH and Watford which went via Sarratt and Croxley, I believe. The 301 and 302 went via Kings Langley, by the way.

 

[AM9]

For 5 years in the 2nd half of the 1960s I travelled to school on the 301c from Tring to Hemel. 301 went to Watford, the 301c turned left at Two Waters and went up into Hemel - to the Parade in fact. All RTs while I was travelling. After a few years our particular bus was extended on up to Warners End as a 312. Coming home it was walk to the Parade, bus (a 302?) to Two Waters and pick up a 301 north along the A41.
Northbound the 301 changed drivers at Two Waters and the engine was stopped... one driver used to pull away on the starter motor, letting the clutch in at the same time as the engine started.
I remember RFs working the Green Line [express] coaches from Tring on routes 706 and 707, also the intoduction of a 727 - to Heathrow airport I think. I have a feeling one of the coach routes started back from Aylesbury.

That would have been the gear change operating pedal that enabled the (probably 2nd gear) to be selected. If the engine was warm and hadn't been stopped for more than a couple of minutes, it would fire almost immediately and there would be enough air in the reservoir to operate the brake band that put drive through the gears. The fluid flywheel would have allowed even the starter to keep turning, (although there wouldn't be much forward progress) without much damage. What often happened was that drivers would preselect second whist turning the engine, (first was rarely used except on very steep hill starts) - hitting the gear change pedal as soon as the engine fired. If the handbrake wasn't on the bus would creep, just like a car with an auto gearbox, allowing the driver to then preselect third on the gear lever. Third could then be engaged somewhere between ten and twenty mph.. Fascinating to sit in the LHS lower deck seats and watch the driver. For those that had access to a normal car, the sight of the gear selector being moved whilst the engine was under load was interesting.

 

[Wirewiper]

The 322 also traditionally linked the two towns, but via a different route: it terminated at Watford Junction, a distinction it shared with Central routes 142 and 158 (later the 258). From photos I've seen the 322 seems to have been mostly worked by single deckers, the RF being the vehicle of choice. In the early 1970s, with the proliferation of opo, a new route 452 was introduced between HH and Watford which went via Sarratt and Croxley, I believe. The 301 and 302 went via Kings Langley, by the way.

The 322 operated parallel to the 301/302, but using the back roads such as Gallows Hill and Belswains Lane. It was restricted to single-deck operation due to the low railway bridge at Huntonbridge. Part of it is covered by today's 318 route operated by Mullaney's of Watford (who also operate the shuttle buses between Watford Junction and the Harry Potter Studio Tour).

The route between Watford and Hemel Hempstead via Croxley, Sarratt and Bovingdon was, and still is, the 352. It has been operated under contract to Hertfordshire County Council for many years (possibly ever since deregulation came in), and currently Red Rose Travel provides five journeys each way on Mondays to Saturdays.

Going off-topic now but picking up on your comment about the 158/258: On 13th June 1970 London Transport's Reshaping Plan came to the Harrow and Edgware area, and crew-operated route 158 was withdrawn between Harrow Weald Garage and Watford Junction, It was replaced by new OMO route 182 which operated between Wembley, Empire Pool and Watford Junction using MBs. At the same time the 142 was withdrawn between Edgware Station and Kilburn Park and converted to OMO using SMSs; it was replaced by new route 32 which started out with crew RMs but went OMO the following March. The 182 was subsequently felt to be too long to be operated reliably, and in a further round of service changes on 30th October 1971 it was cut back to Harrow Weald Garage with new route 258 operating between Harrow and Watford Junction. The 158 was withdrawn at the same time; presumably it was felt that the new OMO Harrow-Watford route had so little in common with the crew Harrow Weald - Rayners Lane route that to simply use the same number would not be appropriate. I remember all this as I was growing up in Wealdstone at the time.

 

[Busaholic]

The 322 operated parallel to the 301/302, but using the back roads such as Gallows Hill and Belswains Lane. It was restricted to single-deck operation due to the low railway bridge at Huntonbridge. Part of it is covered by today's 318 route operated by Mullaney's of Watford (who also operate the shuttle buses between Watford Junction and the Harry Potter Studio Tour).

The route between Watford and Hemel Hempstead via Croxley, Sarratt and Bovingdon was, and still is, the 352. It has been operated under contract to Hertfordshire County Council for many years (possibly ever since deregulation came in), and currently Red Rose Travel provides five journeys each way on Mondays to Saturdays.

Going off-topic now but picking up on your comment about the 158/258: On 13th June 1970 London Transport's Reshaping Plan came to the Harrow and Edgware area, and crew-operated route 158 was withdrawn between Harrow Weald Garage and Watford Junction, It was replaced by new OMO route 182 which operated between Wembley, Empire Pool and Watford Junction using MBs. At the same time the 142 was withdrawn between Edgware Station and Kilburn Park and converted to OMO using SMSs; it was replaced by new route 32 which started out with crew RMs but went OMO the following March. The 182 was subsequently felt to be too long to be operated reliably, and in a further round of service changes on 30th October 1971 it was cut back to Harrow Weald Garage with new route 258 operating between Harrow and Watford Junction. The 158 was withdrawn at the same time; presumably it was felt that the new OMO Harrow-Watford route had so little in common with the crew Harrow Weald - Rayners Lane route that to simply use the same number would not be appropriate. I remember all this as I was growing up in Wealdstone at the time.

I'd forgotten the 182, although I believe I travelled on it to, roughly, the GLC boundary on its first day of operation, on a day when I also travelled on the new 186 and 286.

 

[Cambus731]

The only time I ever caught a bus between these two towns was in January 1997 and it was Timebus Routemaster RM2156 on the 73

 

[smtglasgow]

When did the 708 and 719 stop running? My uncle moved to Markyate in the late 80s and I can remember being in Hemel a few years later as a very precocious 7 or 8 year old and being fascinated by the Green Line coaches (we had nothing like that up in Glasgow). But I’m pretty sure that I was watching the London express coaches on the 758 – no memory of stopping coaches. Did they last beyond de-regulation?

 

[A0]

In the early 1970s, with the proliferation of opo, a new route 452 was introduced between HH and Watford which went via Sarratt and Croxley, I believe. The 301 and 302 went via Kings Langley, by the way.

It would probably have been 352 (as it still is) - London Country numbering was 3xx north of the Thames 4xx south of the Thames - a hangover from LT ownership.

 

[Busaholic]

It would probably have been 352 (as it still is) - London Country numbering was 3xx north of the Thames 4xx south of the Thames - a hangover from LT ownership.

It sure was - a genuine mistyping on my part. I have a photo beside me taken from the book Green No More of a 352, destination Watford, from the route's early days. TBH I'm surprised the route still exists in the same form and with the same number

 

[A0]

It sure was - a genuine mistyping on my part. I have a photo beside me taken from the book Green No More of a 352, destination Watford, from the route's early days. TBH I'm surprised the route still exists in the same form and with the same number

I can think of a couple of others in Herts which have survived from around that time largely unchanged.

The 366 dates from the closure of the Welwyn - Luton railway line - I think it's now been re-routed in Harpenden but is essentially unchanged.

The 315 Welwyn GC - Kimpton again is a long survivor - changed route in WGC (used to run via the old Great North Road past Ayot).

The 321's largely unchanged as well - curtailed to Watford where it used to run beyond to Maple Cross and Uxbridge? But the Luton - Watford bit has survived.

Must be a few others.

 

[Wirewiper]

"Traditional" Green line routes such as the 708 and 719 (i.e. not the Motorway Express variety) finally died out in the mid-1990s, as London Regional Transport was no longer willing to subsidise them.

At one time there was a separate 706 to and from Aylesbury (which served Boxmoor and Two Waters but bypassed Hemel itself) but this was withdrawn in the 1970s due to declining passenger numbers and the 708 extended from Hemel to Aylesbury in its place.

 

[Wirewiper]

I can think of a couple of others in Herts which have survived from around that time largely unchanged.

The 366 dates from the closure of the Welwyn - Luton railway line - I think it's now been re-routed in Harpenden but is essentially unchanged.

The 315 Welwyn GC - Kimpton again is a long survivor - changed route in WGC (used to run via the old Great North Road past Ayot).

The 321's largely unchanged as well - curtailed to Watford where it used to run beyond to Maple Cross and Uxbridge? But the Luton - Watford bit has survived.

Must be a few others.

The 310 - although it no longer operates to and from Enfield Town it is still pretty much the same route between Waltham Cross and Hertford, except between Hoddesdon and Amwell where it has been rerouted to replace other services.

The 331, although that runs beyond Buntingford to Royston nowadays (I think that was to replace a former United Counties route). Also the 384 and 390 in the Hertford-Stevenage areas can be traced back to London Transport days.

 

[MedwayValiant]

The 366 dates from the closure of the Welwyn - Luton railway line - I think it's now been re-routed in Harpenden but is essentially unchanged.

Yes indeed. The 366 now runs via Harpenden town centre, while it used to run straight along the Lower Luton Road from Wheathampstead to Luton. The routing around WGC has changed a couple of times too.

The unwelcome development on the 366 route is that there is no longer a Saturday service.

The 331, although that runs beyond Buntingford to Royston nowadays (I think that was to replace a former United Counties route).

When I was a young man, the service from Buntingford to Royston was provided by Green Line 798 (Victoria to Cambridge) which never strayed far from the A10. That Green Line route disappeared sometime in the 90s and the 331 extended to Royston as a replacement. Initially it went straight up the A10 as the 798 had done, but was then rerouted via Barkway and Barley. I'm not sure what the previous service to those two villages had been. Something from Cambus, possibly?

 

[A0]

Yes indeed. The 366 now runs via Harpenden town centre, while it used to run straight along the Lower Luton Road from Wheathampstead to Luton. The routing around WGC has changed a couple of times too.

The unwelcome development on the 366 route is that there is no longer a Saturday service.

Though interestingly Centrebus run it within Welwyn / Hatfield commercially on Saturday, but evidently feel there's no market for Wheathampstead / Harpenden on Saturday.

I was always surprised that it managed to stay with LCNE / Sovereign despite being an HCC contract. Always expected an independent to pick it up.

When I was a young man, the service from Buntingford to Royston was provided by Green Line 798 (Victoria to Cambridge) which never strayed far from the A10. That Green Line route disappeared sometime in the 90s and the 331 extended to Royston as a replacement. Initially it went straight up the A10 as the 798 had done, but was then rerouted via Barkway and Barley. I'm not sure what the previous service to those two villages had been. Something from Cambus, possibly?

The 798 was an '80s construct - when Green Line extended out to Cambridge using 3 routes - 797 via Stevenage & Hatfield, 798 via Hertford and Buntingford and 799 via Harlow and the A11.

No idea what went before - unlikely to have been UCOC - a bit far out of their area. More likely Eastern Counties / Cambus or Eastern National from Bishops Stortford.

 

[MedwayValiant]

I was always surprised that it managed to stay with LCNE / Sovereign despite being an HCC contract. Always expected an independent to pick it up.

So did I! Welwyn Hatfield Line certainly bid for it at least once and very much wanted it, so LCNE must have been equally keen to keep it. I don't know whether the likes of Jubilee and Seamarks ever chased it, or whether L&D ever had any interest.

No idea what went before - unlikely to have been UCOC - a bit far out of their area. More likely Eastern Counties / Cambus or Eastern National from Bishops Stortford.

It feels a bit too far from Stortford to have been Eastern National, so Cambus certainly seems the most likely, unless it was one of the rural routes that had always been the domain of either H V Richmond (Barley) or Elsie Smith (Buntingford) (the latter eventually sold out to the former, although Elsie herself was long dead by then).

I remember once talking to a LCNE driver in Hitchin when the Smith's service to Buntingford via Cottered was on the stand. He commented that some of the drivers didn't like "these two bit companies" running the buses, but he felt that Smith's should be exempt from the criticism. It was a commercial service, and Smith's had been running into Hitchin on market days since the 30s. They hadn't just picked up a contract and "stolen our route", as some felt that certain other operators had.

 

[A0]

So did I! Welwyn Hatfield Line certainly bid for it at least once and very much wanted it, so LCNE must have been equally keen to keep it. I don't know whether the likes of Jubilee and Seamarks ever chased it, or whether L&D ever had any interest.



It feels a bit too far from Stortford to have been Eastern National, so Cambus certainly seems the most likely, unless it was one of the rural routes that had always been the domain of either H V Richmond (Barley) or Elsie Smith (Buntingford) (the latter eventually sold out to the former, although Elsie herself was long dead by then).

I remember once talking to a LCNE driver in Hitchin when the Smith's service to Buntingford via Cottered was on the stand. He commented that some of the drivers didn't like "these two bit companies" running the buses, but he felt that Smith's should be exempt from the criticism. It was a commercial service, and Smith's had been running into Hitchin on market days since the 30s. They hadn't just picked up a contract and "stolen our route", as some felt that certain other operators had.

I think it would have stretched WHL to run that - not least in having suitable vehicles. Going back to the original topic, WHL did actually make it to Hemel though when they took over the weekend / evening 340.

Seamarks never had a huge bus fleet - it was only ever one or two services they picked up. Again, looking at Hemel they ran the 307 (which I think was another long standing route) along with the 88 and 355 as well as the evening 321. Most of those services only required a single bus.

Lastly - as I'm conscious a bit OT - don't forget EN at Bishops Stortford did make it to St Albans when they took over the HCC 341 contract.

 

[spuddie]

Thanks for all the replies to my question and beyond, they have been really helpful and much appreciated.

I think WHL would have been okay with the 366, afterall they did also win the 44 between Stevenage and Luton using one of the two Optare StarRiders. Was the 366 one of the routes that HCC suddenly stipulated had to be a 49 seater? I remember Sovereign having to get rid of most of their B series short nationals and replacing them all with older longer ones from a variety of sources...which also coincided with a variety of advertising liveries.

 

[A0]

Thanks for all the replies to my question and beyond, they have been really helpful and much appreciated.

I think WHL would have been okay with the 366, afterall they did also win the 44 between Stevenage and Luton using one of the two Optare StarRiders. Was the 366 one of the routes that HCC suddenly stipulated had to be a 49 seater? I remember Sovereign having to get rid of most of their B series short nationals and replacing them all with older longer ones from a variety of sources...which also coincided with a variety of advertising liveries.

The 44 was a totally different propostion - it could be run one one shift with one vehicle - the 366 I'm sure needed two and you'd definitely have had it over two shifts. WHL actually used a variety of vehicles on it and I somewhere have pictures of most of them, but they had two Bedford / Duple buses, a Bedford coach and Bristol LH coach.

Don't recall the 366 being one where 'long' Nationals got used. IIRC it went from 'B' series Nationals to Lynxes - the Lynxes being released from 300 / 734 by the Volvo's Sovereign bought (B10LE's ?). Sovereign also put long Mercedes mini-buses on it at various times as well.

 

[spuddie]

The 44 was a totally different propostion - it could be run one one shift with one vehicle - the 366 I'm sure needed two and you'd definitely have had it over two shifts. WHL actually used a variety of vehicles on it and I somewhere have pictures of most of them, but they had two Bedford / Duple buses, a Bedford coach and Bristol LH coach.

Don't recall the 366 being one where 'long' Nationals got used. IIRC it went from 'B' series Nationals to Lynxes - the Lynxes being released from 300 / 734 by the Volvo's Sovereign bought (B10LE's ?). Sovereign also put long Mercedes mini-buses on it at various times as well.

Your right the 366 was certainly a 2 vehicle all day route. It certainly went through a phase of using the long second hand nationals (Eg YYV104S, YEV306S, EUM892T, YCD81T, JJG886P, WJN558S, LJN663P) but could also see pretty much have anything and everything on it. I remember travelling on it when Mercedes 811D K3SBC was brand new in Blazefield Buses livery before the B services were launched in St Albans. It also often used the smaller Mercedes 709D's but at the other extreme Bristol VR's and Leyland Olympians often saw use too.

 

[A0]

Your right the 366 was certainly a 2 vehicle all day route. It certainly went through a phase of using the long second hand nationals (Eg YYV104S, YEV306S, EUM892T, YCD81T, JJG886P, WJN558S, LJN663P) but could also see pretty much have anything and everything on it. I remember travelling on it when Mercedes 811D K3SBC was brand new in Blazefield Buses livery before the B services were launched in St Albans. It also often used the smaller Mercedes 709D's but at the other extreme Bristol VR's and Leyland Olympians often saw use too.

I suspect the long Nationals were only for a shortish time. Sovereign started to sort themselves out from about 1989 on - the Lynxes arrived which allowed for some of the oldest ex-LCBS vehicles to leave.

Then they bought Jubilee Coaches out - again that improved the fleet age as Jubilee had some Lynxes and a number of newish MCW Metro-riders.

WHL succumbed soon after - which allowed a lot of route consolidation around Welwyn / Hatfield.

Then the Merc minibuses started to arrive en-masse followed by the Volvo B10s - by about '95 Nationals were becoming alot less common, the double deckers were mainly based at Stevenage.

I suspect some of the 'second hand' Nationals were in better condition than some of the LCBS ones which had been well and truly thrashed - and apart from a few of the 'B' series ones, were decidedly rough by 1990.

 

[spuddie]

I think the take over of Jubilee and their TL11 engined Lynxes arrived first before Sovereign purchased any, I certainly remember F358JVS (The last TL11 engined Lynx ever built) being the first I ever rode on and remember being told about the differences when the new G201-7URO arrived (eg having a stepped floor to the rear rather than ramped). Later around 1993 they also aquired F203-8MBT and G384MWX from Harrogate/Keighley & District. More arrived in later years from the KWY and MWU batches.

The long second hand Nationals were aquired around 1992 and the last of them left in 1996 from North Mymms when Volvo B10B's N106-8GVS arrived along with N109GVS and M310KHP at Stevenage. St Albans had 3 B series National's that lasted a few years longer but these were ex-West Yorkshire examples rather than ex-LCNE.

Double Decker wise Stevenage had LR32, 33, 37 and 38 whilst North Mymms had the 4 Bristol VR's. When LR's started to come back down from Keighley Stevenage had LR34 and North Mymms had LR's 31, 32, 33, 37, 38, 39 and 40 as well as 3 Titan's borrowed from BTS until LR66, LR68 and LR69 also arrived back down south.

The ex-Jubilee Metroriders left before the National's in approx 1995, all being replaced by either Mercedes 709D's or 811D's.

 

[RT4038]

Yes indeed. The 366 now runs via Harpenden town centre, while it used to run straight along the Lower Luton Road from Wheathampstead to Luton. The routing around WGC has changed a couple of times too.

The unwelcome development on the 366 route is that there is no longer a Saturday service.



When I was a young man, the service from Buntingford to Royston was provided by Green Line 798 (Victoria to Cambridge) which never strayed far from the A10. That Green Line route disappeared sometime in the 90s and the 331 extended to Royston as a replacement. Initially it went straight up the A10 as the 798 had done, but was then rerouted via Barkway and Barley. I'm not sure what the previous service to those two villages had been. Something from Cambus, possibly?

It was a United Counties route - 188 Biggleswade-Royston-Buntingford (Eastern National prior to 1952) - operated from Biggleswade Depot. Ran Wednesdays and Saturdays. Replaced Service 164 (Royston-Buntingford-Standon) sometime between 1938 and 1956!

 

[MedwayValiant]

Thanks, I certainly didn't know that. What was the routing between Biggly and Royston? I'm going to guess at Wrestlingworth - Mordens - Bassingbourn, but that's probably completely wrong!

In the modern era, does this imply that there was no six day a week service between Royston and Buntingford before the 798 and then 331 came along?