South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Gareth Marston]

Why would wages increase? There will always be natural wastage. New replacements have no claim for HR wage levels.

Because NotATrainspott you have been telling everybody how light rail will increase frequency dramatically especially with all the extensions which are or so easy in theory in your world happen. More services = more drivers than now. In the real world as you have already been told several times the Welsh Government has committed to keeping a second person on all services and wouldn't dare be seen to be behind cutting well paid jobs, so the existing staff cost base is retained and extra drivers for extra services will be extra cost on top of that. And of course on the other 60% of Cardiff Suburban services that are heavy rail because of the artificial core valley lines split the existing staff cost base is there. It will take years if not decades to get to a situation of any staff cost savings.

Please stop spouting fluffy soft focus Light Rail Conversion theory and pay attention to the numerous real world practicalities and constraints that you are constantly informed of by several posters who actually know the area in question. in South Wales there is no blank canvas to use most of your theory falls flat on its face when it comes up against the real world of what the situation is in South Wales.

 

[Gareth Marston]

t's not here now. The 'simple' matter of ordering new trains means committing to extra subsidy in perpetuity.

How much did CASR's improvements cost on top of simple renewals? Renewal projects almost always mean improvements by default, because newer kit is more capable.

Yet you can order a fleet of brand new DMU's and run them taking advantage of CASR and delivering more capacity on the whole network for a third of the cost of infrastructure cost associated with Light Rail Conversion of just 40% of the network.

 

[gareth950]

You've never addressed my point about LUL and NR. The 'core Valley Lines' infrastructure could be devolved and handed over to the private operator, a la Metrolink. Freight services can use the devolved lines just as Chiltern services run on LUL tracks. The devolved passenger services can run on NR-controlled tracks.

How can these fantabulous tram-trains run on NR controlled tracks without wires or 3rd rail? Bionic duckweed?

The DfT like cutting subsidy. The only realistic way to cut subsidy is to do light rail conversion. The DfT really isn't interested in looking after LR operations.

This is where you really show up that you have no grasp of Welsh devolved politics. From reading this I assume you think that DfT have voluntarily handed over control of the Core VL to Welsh Govt?
The Core VL have only come about because Welsh Govt have cried and whined and whinged and cried some more for the past 5 years about not getting more powers and control over rail infrastructure. Not because DfT want the Valleys converted to light rail or because DfT and NR want to hand over control of the Core VL.
And because of a blue sky thinking report from professor Mark Barry at Cardiff University, proclaiming that the Metro will magically regenerate the whole SE Wales and Valleys region, helped along by heavily biased, uncritical, free publicity from his brother, the business editor of Wales Online, Sion Barry.

Why would wages increase? There will always be natural wastage. New replacements have no claim for HR wage levels.

See the other Gareth's concise reply

25kV AC dual-voltage capability is absolutely trivial to add to new-build metro vehicles. Let NR wire up Cardiff how they want and then add in 750V DC for the bits they don't have to cover but the Metro would need.

The only wiring NR are doing in Cardiff is to finish off the GWML. That's it.

Of course Solaris can come along and correct all of my 'disinformation' and 'misunderstandings' if he/she/it so wishes.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Because NotATrainspott you have been telling everybody how light rail will increase frequency dramatically especially with all the extensions which are or so easy in theory in your world happen. More services = more drivers than now. In the real world as you have already been told several times the Welsh Government has committed to keeping a second person on all services and wouldn't dare be seen to be behind cutting well paid jobs, so the existing staff cost base is retained and extra drivers for extra services will be extra cost on top of that. And of course on the other 60% of Cardiff Suburban services that are heavy rail because of the artificial core valley lines split the existing staff cost base is there. It will take years if not decades to get to a situation of any staff cost savings.

Please stop spouting fluffy soft focus Light Rail Conversion theory and pay attention to the numerous real world practicalities and constraints that you are constantly informed of by several posters who actually know the area in question. in South Wales there is no blank canvas to use most of your theory falls flat on its face when it comes up against the real world of what the situation is in South Wales.

Yes, more frequency would mean more drivers. It would also mean more transport, while per-LR vehicle staffing costs would go down. For the same overall wage bill you can run more services, earn more revenue and deliver more public benefit. That's efficiency.

As I pointed out, there's a second person on board every Edinburgh Trams service. Is this a safety-critical role? No. It's a revenue protection role. In my experience on the tram, it's often the case that this inspector can check most of the new passengers between each and every stop. Trams don't work so well with ticket barriers, as urban stations are open to the world by design.

Just as with DOO, moving the second person to a pure revenue collection/protection role can have a very significant impact on service viability. If you don't have to worry about doors and station calls, you can spend your time ensuring the money rolls in.

If the Valley Lines are hived off, why would their economic viability be that seriously damaged by some other suburban services not being converted? I fail to see how the service requirements and finances of a continued DfT-controlled Wales and Borders franchise is going to impinge on the newly-devolved light rail Valley Lines. What you're saying doesn't make sense - the finances for the devolved section will be for the devolved section only. The Valley Lines operator would be better off running all of the services, but it's not going to be unviable on its own. If it were unviable, that could only be by design. Is Cardiff Bay now responsible for funding things it doesn't control?

You like to inform myself and other posters about problems which are either subjective, or are fairly trivially avoided with basic design decisions which make financial sense. Everything you're arguing is predicated on an idea that Labour is going to spend more money than they need to on something which is worse, for somewhat nonsensical political reasons.

Yet you can order a fleet of brand new DMU's and run them taking advantage of CASR and delivering more capacity on the whole network for a third of the cost of infrastructure cost associated with Light Rail Conversion of just 40% of the network.

Again, ignoring the operational costs which make the Valley Lines an economic basket case right now. Yes, you could spend several hundred million pounds on a shiny new fleet of trains. What will that get you? A shiny new fleet of trains. Is there any chance it will make the Valley Lines economically viable? Absolutely not. Alternatively, you spend a little bit more and change things so that the lines might actually become economically viable. Your choice leads to a pretty well-defined 30 year lifetime cost. New DMUs cost money now and will mean the network continues to cost money for all 30 of those years. A bit of upfront LR conversion means subsidy can and will decrease year-on-year, leading to an overall lower lifetime cost.

How can these fantabulous tram-trains run on NR controlled tracks without wires or 3rd rail? Bionic duckweed?

750V DC OHLE on NR tracks. You know how little of it you actually need? When you're doing a wiring project, the incremental cost of wiring another kilometre at the end is fairly small unless it requires novel engineering works. And as I say, those few dozen million pounds spend on 750V DC to Penarth and Barry Island (at least) means you can run cheap LR trains and staffing rather than expensive DMUs, mainline drivers and guards.

This is where you really show up that you have no grasp of Welsh devolved politics. From reading this I assume you think that DfT have voluntarily handed over control of the Core VL to Welsh Govt?
The Core VL have only come about because Welsh Govt have cried and whined and whinged and cried some more for the past 5 years about not getting more powers and control over rail infrastructure. Not because DfT want the Valleys converted to light rail or because DfT and NR want to hand over control of the Core VL.
And because of a blue sky thinking report from professor Mark Barry at Cardiff University, proclaiming that the Metro will magically regenerate the whole SE Wales and Valleys region, helped along by heavily biased, uncritical, free publicity from his brother, the business editor of Wales Online, Sion Barry.

Do you really think the UK government responds to whinging? What gain do they have from devolving the Valley Lines? Being able to cut subsidy requirements. Apart from that, no one really cares. Labour folk are never going to like them, and lots of people in Wales don't even like devolution in the first place. Money is the single most important thing when decisions are made like this and the DfT have chosen the one which saves it in the long term.

The only wiring NR are doing in Cardiff is to finish off the GWML. That's it.

If DfT come along and ask NR or whoever else to put up 750V DC OHLE on a few lines so that they can be rid of Valley Line subsidy requirements, then it will happen. NR aren't responsible for subsidising the Wales and Borders franchise. So long as they get the payments they are due from train operators for the lines they're responsible for, they really don't care how services are financed.

The whole of Canton to Barry Island is only about the same distance as Queen Street to Caerphilly. It would represent a small fraction of the wiring requirement for the 'core Valley Lines'. As an add-on scheme to whatever the Welsh were paying for themselves, you couldn't get a better business case if you tried. I strongly suspect it would be cheaper to wire this bit up than it would be to reconfigure services and infrastructure around Central around a split.

What would BR have done? Light rail conversion. They did it in Tyne & Wear and they would do it here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I must admit that I think the "conductors" on Edinburgh Trams are utterly, utterly bizarre.

If you're going to have conductors, have them sell tickets on board and save your money on providing and maintaining TVMs, not to mention that being a very passenger-friendly feature.

Otherwise, have TVMs, PFs and the odd revenue squad.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I must admit that I think the "conductors" on Edinburgh Trams are utterly, utterly bizarre.

If you're going to have conductors, have them sell tickets on board and save your money on providing and maintaining TVMs, not to mention that being a very passenger-friendly feature.

Otherwise, have TVMs, PFs and the odd revenue squad.

If they sold tickets, people would choose to buy on board rather than at the stop. The 'conductor' workload would increase massively, so they would check far less of the tram between stops. People would then start being able to travel for free, which isn't really possible today. The ScotRail network gets away with people buying on board because most people are travelling to or from a small subset of stations and these have ticket barriers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they sold tickets, people would choose to buy on board rather than at the stop. The 'conductor' workload would increase massively, so they would check far less of the tram between stops. People would then start being able to travel for free, which isn't really possible today. The ScotRail network gets away with people buying on board because most people are travelling to or from a small subset of stations and these have ticket barriers.

Sheffield seems to manage. I guess loadings must be much lower?

 

[gareth950]

What would BR have done? Light rail conversion. They did it in Tyne & Wear and they would do it here.

BR would have spent 4 years and £450 million on CASR to future proof the HR network ready for electrification, rebuilding two major stations, remodelling major junctions, platforms, signalling etc etc then decide to rip it all out and start again?
Sure.

It seems the arguments on both sides are now pretty entrenched. Locals who don't want LR because they know the limitations of the network and outsiders who do because it has happened in large English cities.
And you've forgotten Barry - Bridgend, Ebbw Vale, Maesteg and the City line. Shall we run trams there as well?
UK govt have committed £125m to electrification. That's it.
Unless the magic money tree has been found in Treorchy.

 

[Del1977]

Maybe the 'Outsiders' have experience of other urban transport systems elsewhere and see some of the potential benefits. It's also possible they could be more objective - whether for or against the proposals.

On a more fundamental level, surely making local politicians accountable for local transport is a good thing? Isn't that what many cities / city regions etc. actually want?

If the WA makes the wrong decisions, then won't they be accountable for the mistakes? For example, if Khan massively botched up London Underground, there'd be lots of votes lost, as public transport is one of his key responsibilities.

If there are no consequences politically for failures by politicians in Wales then the system isn't working.

On the money / funding, why do you think money can not be raised in Wales through fares, bonds, taxes, congestion charges? It's a fair point if you think sources of funding will be unavailable, but why should this be the case?


There's been lots of chat about operational costs. If the tram system went ahead, whatever political assurances have been given, there is no reason to have guards. Ticket machines at all stations, or an oyster card system - licence TfL's - would strip out a lot of staff costs, or they could be redeployed / retrained as drivers / station staff / penalty fares inspectors.

 

[Envoy]

I'm a new member but have been following this, and the other W&B-related threads for a while. I am a regular commuter from Lisvane&Thornhill into Cardiff.

From a commuter point of view, I think the existing valley lines timetable is fine, especially now the CASR seems to be working and makes both Cardiff Central and Queen St work much more smoothly. The only problem is, of course, the totally inadequate and elderly pacer units. We just need 3 car end-gangway units that can double up to 6 at peak times (either diesel or electric, new or second-hand, I don't care, just get on with it). I am also strongly in favour of retaining the existing HR cross-city links.

Regarding the 319 / 769 conversions, I hope the much vaunted 'capacity increase' is not going to be accounted for by using 3+2 seating. There are some big people using the service, and if you make the seats narrower, it effectively becomes 2 + 1 seating as people can't fit in the narrower seats. I remember about 7-10 years ago (I think), ATW got some more 150/2 units from Scotland - I believe these had the 3+2 removed in favour of 2+2, and the 150s on the line are generally fine, but evidently dont meet the PRM-TSI regs.

Please don't give us trams - they'll be fine for me, but for commuting from Rhymney, Aberdare etc? Please not!!

Trams might not be fine for you if they have less seating than ‘normal’ trains as by the time they reach Lisvane station, they are likely to be pretty full on the down journey. Even with increased frequencies, it comes down to how many seats will be available - especially during commuting times.

It has been suggested on this forum that trams will not be allowed into Cardiff Central. That being the case, it is likely that they would have to come off the present rail system just after Queen Street station and somehow get to the south side of the Central Station - possible via Callaghan Square - or they might just go straight down to the Bay. If this is true - I contend that it is not in the best interests of passengers on your line. You would also, of course, lose your cross city link to Penarth. I think that you should raise these issues with your local Councillor as well as your Welsh Government AM. (It might be a good idea to draw their attention to this forum).

PS. I think that extra stops are also planned - at Wedal Road & Crwys Road. I contend that it is in your (& the entire Rhymney Valley) best interests to retain the fast non-stop run from Heath Halt into Queen Street. By putting in extra stops in Cardiff plus the possibility of losing the direct line into Central Station, surely connectivity of the Rhymney Valley route becomes worse than at present?

 

[daodao]

Trams might not be fine for you if they have less seating than ‘normal’ trains as by the time they reach Lisvane station, they are likely to be pretty full on the down journey. Even with increased frequencies, it comes down to how many seats will be available - especially during commuting times.

It has been suggested on this forum that trams will not be allowed into Cardiff Central. That being the case, it is likely that they would have to come off the present rail system just after Queen Street station and somehow get to the south side of the Central Station - possible via Callaghan Square - or they might just go straight down to the Bay. If this is true - I contend that it is not in the best interests of passengers on your line. You would also, of course, lose your cross city link to Penarth. I think that you should raise these issues with your local Councillor as well as your Welsh Government AM. (It might be a good idea to draw their attention to this forum).

PS. An extra stop is also planned - at Crwys Road. I contend that it is in your (& the entire Rhymney Valley) best interests to retain the fast non-stop run from Heath Halt into Queen Street.

Light rail vehicles, such as those used on the T&W Metro, which can interwork with HR trains, would be acceptable. Extra stops should also be possible with electrification, without slowing the service. I see no reason why such light rail vehicles could not run through platforms 6/7 at Cardiff Central onwards to Barry/Penarth and Radyr via Danescourt. The idea of trams through the narrow streets of Cardiff city centre is daft. The Cardiff Central-Barry line could continue to be maintained by NR for goods trains and for the VoG service via Rhoose, which could continue to run as a HR DMU, non-stop from Cardiff to Barry. That would be similar to the arrangements between Pelaw and Sunderland.

I write as a Mancunian (and familiar with Metrolink) who lived in Cardiff for 21 years, living next to Whitchurch station and a former frequent user of the Coryton branch. City centre penetration could only be achieved in Manchester by city centre street running as the railway arrived after Manchester was an established town, whereas Cardiff developed because of the railway and the stations are much better sited for the city centre.

 

[Mr Apples]

Trams might not be fine for you if they have less seating than ‘normal’ trains as by the time they reach Lisvane station, they are likely to be pretty full on the down journey. Even with increased frequencies, it comes down to how many seats will be available - especially during commuting times.

It has been suggested on this forum that trams will not be allowed into Cardiff Central. That being the case, it is likely that they would have to come off the present rail system just after Queen Street station and somehow get to the south side of the Central Station - possible via Callaghan Square - or they might just go straight down to the Bay. If this is true - I contend that it is not in the best interests of passengers on your line. You would also, of course, lose your cross city link to Penarth. I think that you should raise these issues with your local Councillor as well as your Welsh Government AM. (It might be a good idea to draw their attention to this forum).

PS. I think that extra stops are also planned - at Wedal Road & Crwys Road. I contend that it is in your (& the entire Rhymney Valley) best interests to retain the fast non-stop run from Heath Halt into Queen Street. By putting in extra stops in Cardiff plus the possibility of losing the direct line into Central Station, surely connectivity of the Rhymney Valley route becomes worse than at present?

I was wondering about Wedal Road. There is a row of old houses next to the line on the east side which have been boarded up for a while now, I wondered if this was similar to the WAG buying up tracts of land on the Gwent levels for the new M4. As the railway here is high above road level, and crosses the A48 dual-carriageway, this would be an 'interesting' structure.

What do those of you more learned than me think of this idea? Shut both Heath High- and Low-Level stations, creating a new stop just south of Heath Junction (so serving both Rhymney and Coryton lines) effectively underneath the Highfield Rd bridge. The formation is (I think) wide and long enough there, and would be much closer to the hospital than now - a lot of people seem to get off here in the morning to go there, a closer station might increase this number, and help with the parking problem at the hospital.

 

[Markdvdman]

Well as a commuter from Merthyr Tydfil to Cadoxton daily, and to Bridgend from Cadoxton if I go to Porthcawl to see my old man (vai a bus from Bridgend) - this Light Rail bull would cripple me! Change at Queen Street, for anothet to Central, then another to Cadoxton? Also, I buy a weekly Merthyr to Bridgend as it is the best value for money for me for my trips to Bridgend etc. This would CRIPPLE my cheaper commute and make the daily one hell! Incredible that these Light Rail converts do not understand how it IMPACTS on users! This really would be tantamount to a Beeching con too! Efficient HR trains (which the current are far from it), preferably electrified is what suits ALL locals who want to keep through trains. What about the summertime commutes to Barry Island? They generate great income and people north of Cardiff will think twice - would be easier to go to Porthcawl!

 

[B&I]

Oh for goodness sake.

Are you really arguing that Metrolink has been a failure? How many expansions and service improvements has it seen? How many improvements have comparable cities seen in the same time? Going for trams has been absolutely key to make the system work. Manchester might be a large city but it simply does not have the density required for an underground metro. British urban planning has ensured that nowhere outside of London really justifies a tunnelled Metro today. Other cities on the continent have comparable populations but they're more densely packed, making the high cost of tunnelling more worthwhile.

What would a DLR do over a Metrolink line? Mostly the ability to run trains longer than 60m, and without having to cross the other tram lines in the city. It doesn't mean 'ripping up' the existing lines at all. A few platform extensions and maybe replacing some level crossings with bridges/underpasses is basically it.

Yes of course Metrolink is popular, but that might be something to do with it being the only show in town. What would have stopped the same things being achieved if, instead of ripping up HR, the Picc-Vic project had gone ahead, and the existing electric lines had been modernised as necessary ? At least it would not have required the same lines being rebuilt twice within 40 years, which you now seem to consider necessary.

The only thing that made any difference between an HR solution being considered suitable at one point in history, and a LR solution being implemented, was central government cost-cutting. If things were properly funded in this country, we would not have to constantly adopt sub-optimal solutions, then pretend that they're the best thing since sliced bread to make ourselves feel better about them.

 

[Envoy]

I was wondering about Wedal Road. There is a row of old houses next to the line on the east side which have been boarded up for a while now, I wondered if this was similar to the WAG buying up tracts of land on the Gwent levels for the new M4. As the railway here is high above road level, and crosses the A48 dual-carriageway, this would be an 'interesting' structure.

What do those of you more learned than me think of this idea? Shut both Heath High- and Low-Level stations, creating a new stop just south of Heath Junction (so serving both Rhymney and Coryton lines) effectively underneath the Highfield Rd bridge. The formation is (I think) wide and long enough there, and would be much closer to the hospital than now - a lot of people seem to get off here in the morning to go there, a closer station might increase this number, and help with the parking problem at the hospital.

The ‘houses’ that you have noticed at Wedal Road are in fact the former Youth Hostel. (The Youth Hostel is now down behind the VW dealership off Tyndall Street. Not exactly handy for tourists).

I think your idea of having a station at Highfield Road is excellent as it is nearer to Heath Hospital. In fact, during the working week, Highfield Road is lined with cars - presumably hospital workers who have nowhere to park/refuse to pay to park at work. Not sure if enough land exists for a platform on the northbound track but it certainly does on the southbound side - which has allotments.
This location is also just a short distance from Roath Park Lake = a major tourist attraction in the area. To emphasise this, I would call the station ‘Roath Park' - for Heath Hospital. I would close Heath High Level but retain Heath Low Level as the trains going onto the Coryton branch have to slow down at this point in anycase - and they are not going the ‘long distance’ all the way up the Rhymney Valley. This would be a considerably cheaper solution than the Metro proposal of having trams coming off the Rhymney Line and going along the streets into the hospital - although, it would require a slight walk - for which a mini shuttle bus could be used for those not able to walk. (Such a service should be used now from Heath Halt).

Here is a map of the area:>
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5114021,-3.1849454,1344m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

 

[Envoy]

Well as a commuter from Merthyr Tydfil to Cadoxton daily, and to Bridgend from Cadoxton if I go to Porthcawl to see my old man (vai a bus from Bridgend) - this Light Rail bull would cripple me! Change at Queen Street, for anothet to Central, then another to Cadoxton? Also, I buy a weekly Merthyr to Bridgend as it is the best value for money for me for my trips to Bridgend etc. This would CRIPPLE my cheaper commute and make the daily one hell! Incredible that these Light Rail converts do not understand how it IMPACTS on users! This really would be tantamount to a Beeching con too! Efficient HR trains (which the current are far from it), preferably electrified is what suits ALL locals who want to keep through trains. What about the summertime commutes to Barry Island? They generate great income and people north of Cardiff will think twice - would be easier to go to Porthcawl!

I could not agree more with what you say. I managed to squeeze - just about - onto a summertime train from Merthyr to Barry Island at Cardiff Central - and it was absolutely rammed. Can you imagine all these people coming down the valley on some sort of tram or tram-train to then wind through the streets of Cardiff from Queen Street to the Central Station (south side). Then they all have to get off and go into the train station and board a train to Barry Island? Then, they have to do the whole thing in reverse on the return trip. They will be asking why has so much money be spent to make our journeys so inconvenient? Surely, what everybody needs is a modern, electric, regular transport system that is segregated from the road system and has a enough seats to cope with peak flows? (By going onto the road network, you surely screw up the schedules? Screwed up schedules would particularly hit hard the upper valleys - where precise timing is needed to ensure that services pass at the passing loops). Those who advocate the Metro will probably say that schedules won’t mater because you will have a regular turn up and go service. Surely, that can only be the case if every upper valley line was re-doubled? I note that the Welsh Government have called a halt to the re-doubling of the Ebbw Valley line.

Of course, I just don’t really know what the plans are of the Welsh Government/Transport for Wales and am merely responding to the speculation that has appeared on this forum. I have no connection with any organisation or political party.

 

[Llanigraham]

Maybe the 'Outsiders' have experience of other urban transport systems elsewhere and see some of the potential benefits. It's also possible they could be more objective - whether for or against the proposals.

On a more fundamental level, surely making local politicians accountable for local transport is a good thing? Isn't that what many cities / city regions etc. actually want?

If the WA makes the wrong decisions, then won't they be accountable for the mistakes? For example, if Khan massively botched up London Underground, there'd be lots of votes lost, as public transport is one of his key responsibilities.

If there are no consequences politically for failures by politicians in Wales then the system isn't working.

On the money / funding, why do you think money can not be raised in Wales through fares, bonds, taxes, congestion charges? It's a fair point if you think sources of funding will be unavailable, but why should this be the case?

There's been lots of chat about operational costs. If the tram system went ahead, whatever political assurances have been given, there is no reason to have guards. Ticket machines at all stations, or an oyster card system - licence TfL's - would strip out a lot of staff costs, or they could be redeployed / retrained as drivers / station staff / penalty fares inspectors.

And maybe those "outsiders" are trying to impose a transport system that has been specifically designed for THEIR area onto a totally different geographical, social and economic area. You only have to look at some of the comments made here that show people haven't even looked at a map of the area to see why there have been the responses there have.
(EG- there are no residential areas south of Cardiff City Centre!!)

But I do wonder whether there might have been some different responses if the colour of the controlling party in the Senedd was different!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes, more frequency would mean more drivers. It would also mean more transport, while per-LR vehicle staffing costs would go down. For the same overall wage bill you can run more services, earn more revenue and deliver more public benefit. That's efficiency.

That's only if you sack all the existing Heavy Rail drivers and employ new staff at much lower rates. I repeat no Labour politician (and probably most Tory ones) will want to touch that with a barge pole. The reality is because you fail to take into account how the real world works the magic efficiencies you proclaim simply will not exist. You've been called out on staff costs big time. An LRT system with the existing HR drivers TUPE'd over plus additional drivers on different t&c to meet the frequency requirements will cost more £ - there will be no magic efficiency saving.

You like to inform myself and other posters about problems which are either subjective, or are fairly trivially avoided with basic design decisions which make financial sense.

So the fact that in reality there will be increased staff costs is fairly trivial?
So the fact that the LRT sytem proposed will be split in central Cardiff destroying current cross city direct journeys and constraining operating frequency is fairly trivial?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's only if you sack all the existing Heavy Rail drivers and employ new staff at much lower rates. I repeat no Labour politician (and probably most Tory ones) will want to touch that with a barge pole. The reality is because you fail to take into account how the real world works the magic efficiencies you proclaim simply will not exist. You've been called out on staff costs big time. An LRT system with the existing HR drivers TUPE'd over plus additional drivers on different t&c to meet the frequency requirements will cost more £ - there will be no magic efficiency saving.

There will - DOO. I absolutely guarantee you that no tram system will have a second safety critical member of staff. Not a single one of the UK tram systems has, not even Edinburgh's bizarre OBS-a-likes.

While I doubt there are many, I would also expect the closure of all ticket offices and ticket sales exclusively from TVMs.

Even if the trams have conductors, they won't be on Guard wages, as tram conductor is not the same role, it's just ticket sales and basic customer service.

I also can't see TUPE applying as it's not the same role.

 

[Dai Corner]

Here's what the Welsh Government say about their commitment to railway staff.

http://gov.wales/newsroom/transport/2017/59297378/?lang=en

Welsh Government show commitment to Wales and Borders staff
A series of commitments for the next Wales and Borders franchise have been made by the Welsh Government, First Minister of Wales Carwyn Jones has announced today.
Friday 29 September 2017
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Transport29 September 2017Mid WalesNorth WalesSouth East WalesSouth West Wales
Following positive and constructive discussions, begun by Wales TUC, the commitments mean Wales, its passengers and its rail staff can move ahead with confidence as the Welsh Government’s ambitious plans for the future Wales & Borders Rail Service gathers pace.

As a result of those discussions the First Minister has made the following commitments:

• As a result of significantly increased service pattern, in response to demand growth experienced in Wales, the expectation is there will be more staff not less employed on the franchise. There are rapid changes in railway technology which can improve service and efficiency but the Welsh Government recognise that passengers value personal service and want this technology to complement staff and not replace them.

• The Welsh Government wishes to improve safety, security, service and also accessibility for passengers who require assistance. The Welsh Government therefore commit to keep a safety critical conductor (guard) on all of the Wales & Borders trains and services including heavy rail Metro services and the trains will require this second person to operate. This commitment builds on a clear public response in our consultations, where over 90% of respondents said that a second member of staff was either quite important or essential in the Wales and Borders region, something Age Cymru said was ‘essential’. Disability Wales estimates that disabled people make up more than 20% of the population in Wales.

• Heavy rail infrastructure for the Wales & Borders franchise outside of core valleys will remain with Network Rail.

• The exception to this will be the Core Valley lines where responsibility would transfer to the Welsh Government through Transport for Wales (TFW) subject to an agreed evaluation of the assets between Network Rail and the Welsh Government.

• Therefore the railway infrastructure will remain in public ownership and effected employees will also remain in the public sector with Network Rail or TFW. In the event of any transfer to TFW pensions will be protected and there will be no changes to conditions without the agreement of the trade unions.

• Any new Rolling stock will be maintained by skilled railway people with the maximum number of staff employed in Wales.

• The Welsh Government recognise the unions desire to maximise job security and conditions of employment of catering and cleaning staff and TFW will enter into constructive dialogue with the unions to explore how these can be met.

• The Welsh Government also commit to work constructively with the unions around unions aspirations for ticket office and station staff.

• There will be a no compulsory redundancy guarantee throughout the franchise and in respect of direct sub-contractors.

• There will be continued trade union recognition and the government will also work to ensure this also applies through the sub-contractor supply chain.

• There will be trade union representation on the Transport for Wales Board.

• If future legislation allows the Welsh Governments preference is for the heavy rail ownership and operation of the Wales & Borders services to be part of a UK national integrated railway under public ownership with responsibility and powers for passenger services and infrastructure to be sustainably and comprehensively devolved to the Welsh Government.

These commitments will underpin further detailed discussions between the trade unions and Transport For Wales officials.

The First Minister said


“Our hard working railway staff are a major asset in delivering a modern and safe railway and it is right that they are central to our ambitious plans for the new Wales & Border Services and South Wales Metro.



“I am therefore delighted that we have been able to have such positive and constructive discussions with the railway trade unions, something I have been keen to ensure from the offset.



“These are progressive commitments that will mean a better service for passengers and a better railway in Wales and I look forward to this positive dialogue continuing as we develop our plans.”


Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure Ken Skates added:


“I’m delighted that we have been able to make progress in issuing the tender and also that we have been able to make these commitments to passengers, rail unions and their members.



“We want to hold up the Welsh rail network as an example of where a government can work in effective social partnership with trade unions to deliver a world class railway for commuters, our economy and our communities.”


Yesterday, Abellio Rail Cymru, Arriva Rail Wales, KeolisAmey and MTR Corporation (Cymru) Ltd were invited by Welsh Government to submit final tenders for the next Wales and Borders Rail Service, which will come into force in October 2018.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Find the word "guard" in the above, and look what it commits to. The absence of what it does not commit to tells you everything. Core Valley Lines will be a DOO tram.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I could not agree more with what you say. I managed to squeeze - just about - onto a summertime train from Merthyr to Barry Island at Cardiff Central - and it was absolutely rammed. Can you imagine all these people coming down the valley on some sort of tram or tram-train to then wind through the streets of Cardiff from Queen Street to the Central Station (south side). Then they all have to get off and go into the train station and board a train to Barry Island? Then, they have to do the whole thing in reverse on the return trip. They will be asking why has so much money be spent to make our journeys so inconvenient? Surely, what everybody needs is a modern, electric, regular transport system that is segregated from the road system and has a enough seats to cope with peak flows? (By going onto the road network, you surely screw up the schedules? Screwed up schedules would particularly hit hard the upper valleys - where precise timing is needed to ensure that services pass at the passing loops). Those who advocate the Metro will probably say that schedules won’t mater because you will have a regular turn up and go service. Surely, that can only be the case if every upper valley line was re-doubled? I note that the Welsh Government have called a halt to the re-doubling of the Ebbw Valley line.

Of course, I just don’t really know what the plans are of the Welsh Government/Transport for Wales and am merely responding to the speculation that has appeared on this forum. I have no connection with any organisation or political party.

No these are seemingly official Welsh Government plans plastered all over Trasnport for Wales is own website.
https://tfw.gov.wales/projects/south-wales-metro

ATW's Managing Director has had to send out a memo to staff pointing them to the plans saying that this is all he knows! Given that theirs a tram depot in Taffs Well planned and all the staff currently work at Canton & Central and then last year Ken Skates announced via the Western Mail that the new franchise would have its HQ in Pontypridd - currently Penarth Rd Cardiff there appears to be a lot of Human Resources relocating issues with this as well!

 

[Del1977]

No these are seemingly official Welsh Government plans plastered all over Trasnport for Wales is own website.
https://tfw.gov.wales/projects/south-wales-metro

ATW's Managing Director has had to send out a memo to staff pointing them to saying that this is all he knows! Given that theirs a tram depot in Taffs Well planned and all the staff currently work at Canton and then last year Ken Skates announced via the Western Mail that the new franchise would have its HQ in Pontypridd - currently Penarth Rd Cardiff there appears to be a lot of Human Resources relocating issues with this as well!

Moving staff around is a pretty normal occurrence in business and the public sector. It'll need to be handled appropriately, but it's relatively straightforward.

Find the word "guard" in the above, and look what it commits to. The absence of what it does not commit to tells you everything. Core Valley Lines will be a DOO tram.

Agree. There's plenty of wriggle room in this statement. It'll be DOO.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Find the word "guard" in the above, and look what it commits to. The absence of what it does not commit to tells you everything. Core Valley Lines will be a DOO tram.

From http://gov.wales/newsroom/transport/2017/59297378/?lang=en

As a result of significantly increased service pattern, in response to demand growth experienced in Wales, the expectation is there will be more staff not less employed on the franchise.

The Welsh Government wishes to improve safety, security, service and also accessibility for passengers who require assistance. The Welsh Government therefore commit to keep a safety critical conductor (guard) on all of the Wales & Borders trains and services including heavy rail Metro services and the trains will require this second person to operate. This commitment builds on a clear public response in our consultations, where over 90% of respondents said that a second member of staff was either quite important or essential in the Wales and Borders region, something Age Cymru said was ‘essential’. Disability Wales estimates that disabled people make up more than 20% of the population in Wales.

There will be a no compulsory redundancy guarantee throughout the franchise and in respect of direct sub-contractors.

This a very much a Governmental fudge. Carwyn and Ken do not want to be seen to be making people lose their jobs - so no compulsory redundancies. No doubt a voluntary scheme maybe implemented.
Its big on how we've listened to people who want second members of staff onboard, we respect the disabled dig how cool we are etc yet the promise is for only Heavy rail Metro services. So "Core Valley Lines" can be an exception presumably the 10% that didn't want a second member of staff live their. If your disabled in the Valleys your not quite as important as someone disabled from Colwyn Bay. I wonder if Age Cymru and Disability Wales share this view?
Yet the rest of the franchise will have more staff not less presumably jobs will be found for Valleys Conductors who don't take voluntary redundancy. We can then shout look at the saved staff costs on Core Valley Lines whilst increasing them on the rest of the franchise!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If your disabled in the Valleys your not quite as important as someone disabled from Colwyn Bay. I wonder if Age Cymru and Disability Wales share this view?

I would be surprised if any tram conversion did not have level boarding - every single one of the other UK tramways does. That's better for disabled people, not worse, as it affords them their full independence to use the service as they wish. It's core to the reason why I support "proper" DOO (i.e. no second member of staff of any kind except on certain trouble trains) on Merseyrail but not on Northern.

Indeed, unless they go with Stadler for new units like Merseyrail did (as nobody else seems to offer lower-floor units to the UK market) this is a very strong argument in favour of a tram. Were I in a wheelchair (yes, I know other disabilities exist), or even if I found it difficult to walk (that one's more likely when I'm older, I have bad knees already in my 30s), I'd hugely prefer a system where I was guaranteed easy level boarding on every single service by definition over one where I had to rely on an assistance service or even an electric ramp like London buses which often breaks.

And it doesn't just help disabled people. Also much better for people with luggage and the likes.

 

[Envoy]

No these are seemingly official Welsh Government plans plastered all over Trasnport for Wales is own website.
https://tfw.gov.wales/projects/south-wales-metro

ATW's Managing Director has had to send out a memo to staff pointing them to the plans saying that this is all he knows! Given that theirs a tram depot in Taffs Well planned and all the staff currently work at Canton & Central and then last year Ken Skates announced via the Western Mail that the new franchise would have its HQ in Pontypridd - currently Penarth Rd Cardiff there appears to be a lot of Human Resources relocating issues with this as well!

Thanks - Gareth. Not speculation but indeed the truth about the plans.

 

[Del1977]

I think design is a more important factor for disabled access rather than a guard on the train. A woman in a wheelchair gets on the bus at the next bus stop to mine. She then gets off at Canada Water station. And then gets on the Jubilee line. All without any staff intervention. Because there's bus ramps / level boarding for the Jubilee line, lifts etc.

 

[gareth950]

Well as a commuter from Merthyr Tydfil to Cadoxton daily, and to Bridgend from Cadoxton if I go to Porthcawl to see my old man (vai a bus from Bridgend) - this Light Rail bull would cripple me! Change at Queen Street, for anothet to Central, then another to Cadoxton? Also, I buy a weekly Merthyr to Bridgend as it is the best value for money for me for my trips to Bridgend etc. This would CRIPPLE my cheaper commute and make the daily one hell! Incredible that these Light Rail converts do not understand how it IMPACTS on users! This really would be tantamount to a Beeching con too! Efficient HR trains (which the current are far from it), preferably electrified is what suits ALL locals who want to keep through trains. What about the summertime commutes to Barry Island? They generate great income and people north of Cardiff will think twice - would be easier to go to Porthcawl!

I urge anyone who lives in the SE Wales region and is going to be directly affected by these plans to contact their constituency assembly member to express their strong objections at TfW's plans. You can find your constitiency asemmbly member here: http://www.senedd.assembly.wales/mgFindMember.aspx

You may not feel like it will make a difference but if enough AM's report constituents getting in contact with them in objection to TfW's plans who knows.
Also write to Wales Online, the SW Echo, your local newspaper etc. You can even send a story to BBC Wales News here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10725415
Awareness needs to be raised.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I think design is a more important factor for disabled access rather than a guard on the train. A woman in a wheelchair gets on the bus at the next bus stop to mine. She then gets off at Canada Water station. And then gets on the Jubilee line. All without any staff intervention. Because there's bus ramps / level boarding for the Jubilee line, lifts etc.

But doesn't all of that require works on existing platforms and stations? In some cases work that would be pretty substantial! Maybe I am just cynical, but are we really going to get substantial investment in platforms and stations that in recent years have basically been either abandoned or cheaped out on? (e.g. - The local station to me when I grew up used to have a pretty good solid brick building shelter, a few years ago that was replaced with a rubbish plastic shelter that has gaps between the walls and roof so you still get wet and cold even under it - while not specifically about access, I find it hard to believe that significant money will be invested in stations where the more recent trend has been to spend as little as possible on them). Especially if, as at least one person in favour of light rail in this thread has claimed, the main aim is to cut costs!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Harrington humps cost next to nothing. Level boarding with a tram is not an expensive investment.