When is banter actually intimidation?

[EM2]

I refer you to my earlier posts to maybe give you an idea at where they might need help and support.

So what you're saying is that you want the way society treats men and women to be more closely aligned? More...equal?

The train manager doesn't have telekinesis, therefore they won't be able to tell if someone is going to feel uncomfortable at a few words that are said with good intent.

Then don't say them! All the TM has to say, when a passenger presents their railcard, is 'Thank you'.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

So what you're saying is that you want the way society treats men and women to be more closely aligned? More...equal?

What I truly want is society to stop ignoring men and their issues while favouring women and calling it “equality”. Everyone should be equal only in the eyes of the law, and in the equality of opportunity.

Then don't say them! All the TM has to say, when a passenger presents their railcard, is 'Thank you'.

So don’t say something nice in case there is one person who chooses to get offended by it? Wow. Just wow. I wonder if the people who have this attitude will soon complain that nobody compliments or says nice things to each other anymore. This is one reason why I’m not a good person.

 

[EM2]

What I truly want is society to stop ignoring men and their issues while favouring women and calling it “equality”. Everyone should be equal only in the eyes of the law, and in the equality of opportunity.

And when there is true equality, that's what you will have.

So don’t say something nice in case there is one person who chooses to get offended by it? Wow. Just wow. I wonder if the people who have this attitude will soon complain that nobody compliments or says nice things to each other anymore. This is one reason why I’m not a good person.

Not when it's your job, no. I say nice things to people all the time but not at work, and definitely not to customers.

 

[NSEFAN]

So don’t say something nice in case there is one person who chooses to get offended by it? Wow. Just wow. I wonder if the people who have this attitude will soon complain that nobody compliments or says nice things to each other anymore. This is one reason why I’m not a good person.

There's no need to be so absolutist about it. All that's needed is a moment to consider "would my comment offend this person?" If you know them well, you can easily make that judgement. If you don't, then best err on the side of caution. That doesn't mean never speaking to someone or saying nice things, just engaging the brain before opening the mouth.

Keeping this on topic, the issue here is that the guard was on duty at the time, and to make the comments he did (however well meaning) wasn't appropriate. If it was a passenger he knew well, then it would be different. But you can't assume a random stranger will take kindly to unsolicited comments about their appearance.

 

[Raul_Duke]

But if you pat my wife's bum, you'd better be prepared for the volcano that will erupt from her.

What an unfortunate way of phrasing that.

 

[AlterEgo]

Unsolicited comments about someone's appearance however are generally low-level sexual abuse.

I’m not even sure where to begin with this. What a bonkers statement.

Now, I'm not saying that you can't compliment people on their appearance, but you should not do it unsolicited or with people who are not your friends.

What gives you the moral authority to say that? This is perfectly okay in many contexts. A lot of women value this kind of thing. And a lot don’t.

Friendships are started over shared interests. "You look pretty" is not an interest, it's a comment that you find that person sexually attractive, and thus are implying you would like to have sex with them.

No, saying someone looks pretty is simply a cheap and easy compliment. I’ve told my mother before that she’s dressed nicely and looks great when she was off for a night out with my dad. It’s not sexual or lecherous, it is a recognition that a person has put time and effort into their appearance.

The power dynamic is to make the person in your debt because you gave them something.

No, not at all.

The hundreds of unsolicited compliments women receive on their looks (I, a man, have probably received less than 10 unsolicited compliments from people I don't know, and all were about the quite safe topic of what my t-shirt had on it)

A lot of women like getting unsolicited comments though. (And a lot don’t)

The way women...get interrupted more than men

No, I get interrupted a LOT by women. I don’t think either sex has the monopoly on that one.

No doubt that a lot of people embellish their stories. That's human memory, it's pretty ****. So sure, consider the details of any individual story suspect. But then ask yourself, why would so many people lie, in such a consistent way? If ten people see a red Ford go by with its headlights on, and you asked them, you'd overall get a picture of a red Ford with headlights on, but you would get random memory drift - someone would say it was blue, another would say it was a Vauxhall, another would say it had its indicators on - but you'd probably get 7 people saying it was red, 6 people saying it was a Ford, 8 people saying its lights were on. But that's not what we have here. Here, we have thousands of people telling remarkably consistent stories.

What isn’t reported so much, because it’s not right-on, is how a lot of women in real life just don’t care! They don’t think this is an issue.

The experiences reported by many women are undoubtedly true. But this is not necessarily representative of *all women* or their beliefs. They aren’t a homogenous bloc and as men neither of us can speak for them.

And it's why men should be feminists. Because the point of feminism is not that women are better, it's that they are equal, and we should not have gendered expectations of what a man should do and what a woman should do.

No thanks. I think gender roles are important, at least to a degree, and this has underpinned a very successful western civilisation for a very long time.

Your behaviours are sexist, they are racist, they are homophobic. You will have to change. I am sexist, I am racist, I am homophobic. I will change. Because at the end of it, I will be a better person.

Advocating the end of human nature there I see. I’d like a more tolerant society but not one as right-on as your genderless bubble.

 

[DarloRich]

*cracks his knuckles*
BRING ON THE QUOTES!



Frankly, this just sounds like lechery to me. At best it is unprofessional. If your job is to check tickets, then check the tickets. By all means converse with the passengers, but if all you can say is stuff about their appearance or imply that they're out to get laid, you should shut up.




Being nice and friendly is fine. Unsolicited comments about someone's appearance however are generally low-level sexual abuse. Now, I'm not saying that you can't compliment people on their appearance, but you should not do it unsolicited or with people who are not your friends. When you are friends with someone you can judge what level of sexual talk is appropriate between yourselves. Perhaps you both want to share bawdy jokes, perhaps you'd rather just keep things entirely professional. When you know someone, you can judge what they will find appropriate. If you don't know someone, you cannot judge what they will find appropriate, and so you should not attempt to discuss their appearance at all. Please note that by solicited I mean either they your opinion is explicitly requested, you are in a situation where such behaviour is expected, or you have been given implicit permission as signalled through body language.




It's all contextual. If they were dance partners then they'd have got to know each other pretty well, and from reading each other they could work out what was and was not appropriate for them.




Some people are just plain idiots. I consider holding a door open just generally a nice thing to do, the only time I'd not do it is if I know the person behind is a jerk.




Friendships are started over shared interests. "You look pretty" is not an interest, it's a comment that you find that person sexually attractive, and thus are implying you would like to have sex with them. The power dynamic is to make the person in your debt because you gave them something. It's inappropriate in most settings, and especially in a professional context, where the passenger is already in the official's power. If you must try and make friends with passengers, a better comment might be "you're reading (book) - I've heard about that, would you recommend it?"




That's kind of the point. A lot of sexism is trivial. It's not people going "nice baps", it's more borderline stuff, which is just mildly skeevy. The hundreds of unsolicited compliments women receive on their looks (I, a man, have probably received less than 10 unsolicited compliments from people I don't know, and all were about the quite safe topic of what my t-shirt had on it). The way women's ideas get marginalised, the way they get interrupted more than men, the way their experience counts for less, the fact their life experiences are not considered credible if a man has not also experienced it. That is what most sexism is.




No doubt that a lot of people embellish their stories. That's human memory, it's pretty ****. So sure, consider the details of any individual story suspect. But then ask yourself, why would so many people lie, in such a consistent way? If ten people see a red Ford go by with its headlights on, and you asked them, you'd overall get a picture of a red Ford with headlights on, but you would get random memory drift - someone would say it was blue, another would say it was a Vauxhall, another would say it had its indicators on - but you'd probably get 7 people saying it was red, 6 people saying it was a Ford, 8 people saying its lights were on. But that's not what we have here. Here, we have thousands of people telling remarkably consistent stories. The details may vary, but if you have that many people telling you something, you should probably believe it.

You don't arrest someone just because one person claimed they did something. But we're not talking about punishment by law of individual people here, we're not saying "Joe Bloggs wolf-whistled Victoria Pennythwaite on the tube", we're saying "women on the tube are wolf-whistled by men". Whether you can prove any individual person perpetrated an act is not the point, you can certainly however prove that such things do happen. It's sort of like a firing squad - the reason there's a squad is so that (in principle) you can't tell who actually killed the man, it's a shared culpability.






I just want to state at this point that there is individual sexism, and there is systemic sexism. Individual sexism might be denying someone a job because of their gender, or being the subject of unsolicited sexual comments. Systemic sexism is that less people of one gender apply for that job in the first place because it's not considered "manly", or there are physical requirements which make it harder for women to make the grade, or where for some other reason there is a skew in results by gender. Men rarely suffer from individual sexism, but they do regularly suffer from systemic sexism. Now, in the following I deal with generalities, so there will be exceptions, but overall the following holds:

I doubt that when shooting at British troops, the enemy considers much whether that trooper is male or female, so there being more male combat deaths is not in of itself sexist. But the fact that more people in the military are men probably is to a degree sexist, though in a more systemic way. Societal expectations of boys tend more towards physicality, so more boys than girls take sports and fitness seriously. Similarly, societal expectations of boys are to be more aggressive than girls, and so they are more likely to think "I want to join the army". Finally, women are physically less imposing than men (in the median case), and thus fewer women meet the physical requirements than do men.

That men make up the majority of suicides is institutional sexism, it's the whole "manliness" thing gone awry. Men feel obliged to be lone protectors, to be "strong", and if they can't manage that, and do not possess the emotional wherewithal to get help, then they may think of themselves as a failure and thus that their life is not worth living anymore. We do condition boys to believe that losing is weakness. Women meanwhile are conditioned more to form support groups, and thus if they break down they have people who can help.

That men make up the majority of workplace deaths is again institutional sexism. Men tend to be the ones who do more dangerous jobs, and also the ones more likely to suffer in silence rather than seek help.

Regarding men losing in family courts, again this is sexism, there is an institutional bias here towards women because women are seen more as the carers and men are more likely to be the main financial provider (a downside of women not having equal pay, but also because women tend to strive for a better work-life balance). In all sorts of family areas, men lose out - we see less of our children, we likely get less time off for paternity leave, we're considered the main breadwinner. It's not fair, and it is a problem. No one would deny it's a problem. And it's why men should be feminists. Because the point of feminism is not that women are better, it's that they are equal, and we should not have gendered expectations of what a man should do and what a woman should do. Men can stay home to look after the children, women can be the main breadwinner. Women can be assertive and intellectual, men can be nurturing and artistic. Boys can play with dolls, girls can enjoy Meccano. This is the society we want - where everyone can be the person they want to be, without being shamed because it's not what their gender is expected to do. Where people are judged based on their merits, not on their looks or their genitals. Where if you do the same job as someone else, to the same skill as that person, you get the same pay.

Equality is not hard to understand, but to get there we need to question our entire society because for so long it has been built around powerful men doing what they want to and stuff the rest of us. We don't see the inequality because it's what we think of as "just the way things are". But is it the way things have to be? Is there a way we can be better?

It will be difficult. You will have to make sacrifices. Your behaviours are sexist, they are racist, they are homophobic. You will have to change. I am sexist, I am racist, I am homophobic. I will change. Because at the end of it, I will be a better person. And so will everyone else. And then I will be able to treat others equitably, and be treated as such in return.


TLDR: Yes, the guard in the OP was creepy and should go on a sexual harrassment training course.

What a load of right on studey nonsense. Utter wibble dressed up with lots of nice, clever words - It is so preposterous that it could be a Corbynian parody.

AlterEgo has responded in much more polite detail than I am prepared to.

 

[EM2]

What gives you the moral authority to say that? This is perfectly okay in many contexts. A lot of women value this kind of thing. And a lot don’t.

And how do you know which women value it when you say it?

No, saying someone looks pretty is simply a cheap and easy compliment. I’ve told my mother before that she’s dressed nicely and looks great when she was off for a night out with my dad. It’s not sexual or lecherous, it is a recognition that a person has put time and effort into their appearance.

Again, boundaries. Your Mum, I'm sure, knows that your comment is not sexual. Other women might not. And why not say the same to your Dad?

A lot of women like getting unsolicited comments though. (And a lot don’t)

Again, how do you know that a particular woman does, unless they have told you?

What isn’t reported so much, because it’s not right-on, is how a lot of women in real life just don’t care! They don’t think this is an issue.

The experiences reported by many women are undoubtedly true. But this is not necessarily representative of *all women* or their beliefs. They aren’t a homogenous bloc and as men neither of us can speak for them.

Strange then, that more and more women do care, and are reporting unwanted attention.

No thanks. I think gender roles are important, at least to a degree, and this has underpinned a very successful western civilisation for a very long time.

Keep the little ladies in their rightful place, eh?

Advocating the end of human nature there I see. I’d like a more tolerant society but not one as right-on as your genderless bubble.

To be quite honest, a lot of human nature seems to include inflicting horrible violence on other humans. I could very happily live without that.

 

[AlterEgo]

And how do you know which women value it when you say it?

By their reaction. How else?

Again, boundaries. Your Mum, I'm sure, knows that your comment is not sexual. Other women might not.

Other women would have to interpret the comment. They could think I’m a sexual predator (disappointing and rather sad to be honest) or think that I’m well intentioned.

And why not say the same to your Dad?

Because he is a conservative Irishman and would think that was very odd.

I’ll happily pass comment on male friends who have made an effort. Nice suit, noticing they’ve had a haircut etc. Not in the same way mind you, because the dynamic between men is different.

Again, how do you know that a particular woman does, unless they have told you?

Well, women are able to tell you and they have voices.

You have the dilemma of never saying anything in case someone gets offended, and saying things and risk someone getting offended.

For the record, I almost never give women I don’t know unsolicited comments. I am much too shy for that and it’s not my style.

I get comments on my appearance all the time on my YouTube channel - often from men! Only yesterday someone said they were distracted beause of my lovely chest hair in one of the shots. Okay, I found that a bit weird, but I’m not harassed and wouldn’t be even if it were face to face. I’ve had unsolicited nudes in my Snapchat from
blokes (and even a couple from women!). Other comments are much less kind. On Sunday I called out someone who asked me to rate the cabin crew on appearance.

Strange then, that more and more women do care, and are reporting unwanted attention.

This is because the media are more alive to the issue, and women feel empowered to speak about feeling wronged. This is GOOD, but it is not indicative of women as an entire bloc thinking in exactly the same way. It’s important not to conflate the two.

Keep the little ladies in their rightful place, eh?

That’s not what I was implying. I’m merely suggesting gender roles may have a purpose, as they are hardwired into human beings. There’s a good reason that men and women have occupied traditional roles. Of course, men and women should have a choice about what they’d like to do with their lives, but there’s more to the fact that men often do dangerous jobs and women often take caring roles. I’m only against people who think gender roles are entirely fictional constructs and have not evolved for a good reason.

Mrs AlterEgo shares this view and she would probably think your comment was well wide of the mark. And probably offensive. (But hey, being offended confers no moral superiority or entitlement, just to be clear)

To be quite honest, a lot of human nature seems to include inflicting horrible violence on other humans. I could very happily live without that.

You couldn’t.

War and conflict are inevitable, and while we should take steps to reduce it, it’s simply human nature and you cannot absolutely wish it away, I’m afraid.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Not when it's your job, no. I say nice things to people all the time but not at work, and definitely not to customers

Maybe you ought to be careful of saying nice things to people in case they feel uncomfortable?

No, in all seriousness that guard is a better man than I am because of the fact he said something nice to a person. If it were me in his position I wouldn’t even have said “thank you” for getting the ticket to check.

 

[Busaholic]

My only experience of what's being referred too is a few years ago, and refers to bus travel, but please bear with me. It was on a 15 London bus when the service was still run with conductors (not just the so-called Heritage service of today) and I was seated on the long transverse seat at the rear close to where the conductor stands, or stood. Opposite me sat a young female foreigner whom the youngish male conductor constantly pestered for the time I was on the bus (perhaps fifteen minutes). I think conductor identity numbers had lapsed by this time: in any case, he didn't have one. When I got off the bus, leaving the other passenger, I took the running number of the bus, wondering what I should do about it. In the end I didn't do anything, knowing the conductor's days were numbered (the route converted to one person a couple of months later) but I've always felt uneasy: what if the conductor turned out to be a Warbuoys? At the very least it was completely unprofessional of him, and proved his unsuitability for the job.

 

[EM2]

Maybe you ought to be careful of saying nice things to people in case they feel uncomfortable?

To people that I know, and where both of us understand the boundaries

No, in all seriousness that guard is a better man than I am because of the fact he said something nice to a person. If it were me in his position I wouldn’t even have said “thank you” for getting the ticket to check.

You think it's nice, the TM thinks it's nice. The passenger may well not.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

So what you're saying is that you want the way society treats men and women to be more closely aligned? More...equal?

Then don't say them! All the TM has to say, when a passenger presents their railcard, is 'Thank you'.

But to my mind, the problem is that, if that's the only thing that a train manager is able to say every time, to every single passenger (unless there is something 'professional' to talk about such as an issue with the ticket), then to my mind that basically amounts to treating passengers like robots, not like human beings. If I'm travelling, and therefore interacting with rail staff who check my ticket etc., then I actually very strongly prefer it if on some occasions the staff might say something to me beyond the bare essential that is necessary to do their job. That makes me feel like they see me as a valued person, and not just a thing whose ticket needs checking. I think it would be a very sad world if those kinds of friendly interactions were banished in the name of not risking offending anyone.

(Obviously there are limits. If it's a moment when I don't feel like talking, and I therefore react in an obviously disinterested manner to whatever is said to me, then obviously you'd expect the other person to respect that and immediately confine further interaction to what is professionally necessary. If they don't then that would be an issue, but I'm fairly sure that's not what is being discussed in this thread).

 

[EM2]

By their reaction. How else?

But that's after the event. By which time, whatever reason that person has for feeling uncomfortable is now front and centre in their mind. So, you think you've said something nice, but that person is now incredibly upset (for reasons you could have no way of knowing).

Other women would have to interpret the comment. They could think I’m a sexual predator (disappointing and rather sad to be honest) or think that I’m well intentioned.

See above

I’ll happily pass comment on male friends who have made an effort. Nice suit, noticing they’ve had a haircut etc. Not in the same way mind you, because the dynamic between men is different.

But you won't say that another man looks handsome, or sexy? Yet it's OK to say it to a woman?

Well, women are able to tell you and they have voices.

Too late...

You have the dilemma of never saying anything in case someone gets offended, and saying things and risk someone getting offended.

Who said you should never say anything?

I get comments on my appearance all the time on my YouTube channel - often from men! Only yesterday someone said they were distracted beause of my lovely chest hair in one of the shots. Okay, I found that a bit weird, but I’m not harassed and wouldn’t be even if it were face to face. I’ve had unsolicited nudes in my Snapchat from
blokes (and even a couple from women!). Other comments are much less kind. On Sunday I called out someone who asked me to rate the cabin crew on appearance.

So you're generally cool with people commenting on your appearance. And that's great, for you.
But you're not comfortable with some people asking you to comment on other peoples' appearance.

That’s not what I was implying. I’m merely suggesting gender roles may have a purpose, as they are hardwired into human beings. There’s a good reason that men and women have occupied traditional roles. Of course, men and women should have a choice about what they’d like to do with their lives, but there’s more to the fact that men often do dangerous jobs and women often take caring roles. I’m only against people who think gender roles are entirely fictional constructs and have not evolved for a good reason.

Mrs AlterEgo shares this view and she would probably think your comment was well wide of the mark. And probably offensive. (But hey, being offended confers no moral superiority or entitlement, just to be clear)

Yet Mrs EM2 shares my view, and thinks that anyone should be able to do whatever they want to do. Gender roles are entirely social constructs, with the one exception of nursing children, and that's only because females have breasts.

You couldn’t.

War and conflict are inevitable, and while we should take steps to reduce it, it’s simply human nature and you cannot absolutely wish it away, I’m afraid.

Of course you could.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

You think it's nice, the TM thinks it's nice. The passenger may well not.

The passenger may not think so, but we don't know that for sure. Considering the guard walked away afterwards and is probably not going to be encountered again, nobody should think much of it really. Even so, nobody has the right to police what people say. I don't like compliments myself, in fact I am insistent that people I know don't pay me them (not that there is ever anything to compliment me on), and usually they'd respect those wishes as any decent person would for you.

Nevertheless, when it comes to strangers, I merely tolerate it and respond modestly because I'm not really going to see them again. Even if I don't like compliments from people, I don't police what they can and can't say. I can ask them not to, and usually they choose to respect those wishes. I can't do much about those who don't respect them, so I just don't associate with them plain and simple. If they don't make any effort to respect my wishes then they're not worth my attention.

Either way, I don't try and police what they say, I merely ask them not to compliment me, and leave it up to them to respect my wishes. If they chose to do so, then it's all well and good, if they don't, then I have no qualms about not associating with them. I don't even associate with people really, so I don't have to do either of these a lot of the time, and those I do associate with respect my wishes. The fact is though, nobody has the right to police what other people say just because of feelings.

 

[Bromley boy]

Gender roles are entirely social constructs, with the one exception of nursing children, and that's only because females have breasts.

You're not believers in evolutionary psychology, then?!

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012...ldren-toy-preferences-hormones_n_1827727.html

When offered the choice of playing with either a doll or a toy truck, girls will typically pick the doll and boys will opt for the truck. This isn’t just because society encourages girls to be nurturing and boys to be active, as people once thought. In experiments, male adolescent monkeys also prefer to play with wheeled vehicles while the females prefer dolls — and their societies say nothing on the matter.

The monkey research, conducted with two different species in 2002 and 2008, strongly suggested a biological explanation for children’s toy preferences. In recent years, the question has become: How and why does biology make males (be they monkey or human) prefer trucks, and females, dolls?

 

[Bromley boy]

Unsolicited comments about someone's appearance however are generally low-level sexual abuse

I'd urge you to reconsider this statement. Not only is it patently ludicrous, it trivialises actual sexual abuse.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

There are some full on absolute idiots on this forum who need to get out from behind a keyboard and explore the real world!!

When according to some if I were to tell my daughter going to a party she looked "pretty" as I often do it has sexual connotations and I want sex with her and is verging on "low level sexual abuse", I would dare that person to say that to me personally and I would sue them in the highest courts in the land...... and win!! Absolute moronic idiots. Who actually thinks and believes that "pretty" means sexual.

Truly dumbfounded and shocked at some of the crap some of you spout on here. Yes you TheNewNo2

 

[EM2]

Even so, nobody has the right to police what people say.

There are a number of laws that state that some speech is illegal.

 

[EM2]

When according to some if I were to tell my daughter going to a party she looked "pretty" as I often do it has sexual connotations and I want sex with her and is verging on "low level sexual abuse", I would dare that person to say that to me personally and I would sue them in the highest courts in the land......

Again, boundaries.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Again, boundaries.

No not boundaries, just plain wrong

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

pretty
ˈprɪti/
adjective

1. 1.
   (of a person, especially a woman or child) attractive in a delicate way without being truly beautiful.
   "a pretty little girl with an engaging grin"
   synonyms: attractive, lovely, good-looking, nice-looking, fetching, prepossessing, appealing, charming, delightful, nice, engaging, pleasing; More

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

As I said.......... they are plain wrong

 

[EM2]

No not boundaries, just plain wrong

OK, let's say you're giving your daughter a lift to the party, and as she's walking away from the car towards the house, I walk past. I am a short, slightly tubby, unshaven, nearly fifty-year-old white man. And I say to her 'You look pretty, love'. You'd be fine with that? You wouldn't want to grab me round the throat and ask me what the hell I thought I was playing at?

 

[AlterEgo]

But that's after the event. By which time, whatever reason that person has for feeling uncomfortable is now front and centre in their mind. So, you think you've said something nice, but that person is now incredibly upset (for reasons you could have no way of knowing).

Nobody has any reasonable expectation to go through life not being offended or upset. If someone’s upset, that’s a shame. To think as a human, one has to be prepared to upset and be upset. People well know that challenging the beliefs of others may upset or offend them, for example, but that isn’t necessarily a reason not to do it.

Some blokes would be upset at being told their advances are unwarranted, but that definitely wouldn’t be a reason not to tell them. Hmm?

But you won't say that another man looks handsome, or sexy? Yet it's OK to say it to a woman?

I don’t think men look handsome or sexy, that’s why I wouldn’t say it.

I wouldn’t say a woman was “sexy” either. That’s not my style. I might compliment her clothes, or perfume, or makeup, or whatever.

Who said you should never say anything?

You’re suggesting men shouldn’t pass comment on how a woman looks. I’m suggesting this is OTT and unreasonable.

So you're generally cool with people commenting on your appearance. And that's great, for you.

I wouldn’t say “cool”, I simply accept it as part of life’s rich tapestry. Some of the comments are very strange. Some are just plain rude, unwarranted and offensive. A few are nice.

But you're not comfortable with some people asking you to comment on other peoples' appearance.

Not via a medium where I own the discussion forum, where it will generate more comments, where people post anonymously about crew whose faces are visible, and where I have a responsibility to my under-16 viewers - definitely not comfortable with that.

Yet Mrs EM2 shares my view, and thinks that anyone should be able to do whatever they want to do. Gender roles are entirely social constructs, with the one exception of nursing children, and that's only because females have breasts.

And thus we see how all women aren’t a homogenous bloc with differing views on what is and isn’t acceptable, which has been exactly my point throughout.

Some women will think certain behaviour is okay. Some even encourage it. And some will do no such thing and find it offensive.

That’s all there is to it.

Of course you could.

Wishing away war and conflict, yep, good luck with doing that.[/quote][/quote]

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

No , because pretty is not a term used in that situation in a bad way. Pretty is not a term I or the dictionary associate with anything other than a nice endearing way of giving a compliment.

If said short fifty year old was looking her up and down and using a derogatory term you would be right. But for saying pretty. No.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

There are a number of laws that state that some speech is illegal.

Ahh yes, those good old hate speech laws I reckon, where it is okay for certain people to criticise other certain people and certain religions, but where other certain people can't criticise certain people and certain religions, and also where perception is pretty much the only thing needed to consider something malicious.

 

[cuccir]

cracks his knuckles*
BRING ON THE QUOTES!...

While it goes a bit further than I might in its negative description of unsolicited sexual comments, this was a really fair and well-worded post, much more eloquent than I was being on the matter.

 

[cuccir]

Speaking of people who are more eloquent than me (hey look at that - a complement about a woman I don't know which didn't go straight to her appearance!), Vonny Leclerc shared this image today on Twitter. I'd genuinely be interested in hearing objections to it.

 

[EM2]

Nobody has any reasonable expectation to go through life not being offended or upset. If someone’s upset, that’s a shame. To think as a human, one has to be prepared to upset and be upset. People well know that challenging the beliefs of others may upset or offend them, for example, but that isn’t necessarily a reason not to do it.

In the context of an argument or debate, I would agree with you.

Some blokes would be upset at being told their advances are unwarranted, but that definitely wouldn’t be a reason not to tell them. Hmm?

Because that would be an argument or debate.

I don’t think men look handsome or sexy, that’s why I wouldn’t say it.

Never? You've never thought another man was handsome?

You’re suggesting men shouldn’t pass comment on how a woman looks. I’m suggesting this is OTT and unreasonable.

Not what I said. I am suggesting that complete strangers shouldn't pass comment on how a woman looks. Would it have been acceptable for the Train Manager to say 'Blimey, you look a right old bag in that photo'?

And thus we see how all women aren’t a homogenous bloc with differing views on what is and isn’t acceptable, which has been exactly my point throughout.

Some women will think certain behaviour is okay. Some even encourage it. And some will do no such thing and find it offensive.

That’s all there is to it.

And again, you only know who finds it offensive once you've said it. There's no need to say it and you have no idea what effect it will have on someone.