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When is banter actually intimidation?

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gazthomas

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I’m on a XC service northbound at Oxford as I write this. There is an ostensibly jolly guard/manager but I think he is crossing the line - he told the girl sitting next to me how pretty her railcard photo was as an example.

Am I being sensitive? Do you have your own examples?
 
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Clip

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Was she intimidated as per the thread title or were you for her?

Personally I would say that the guard was being unprofessional by making a personal remark but on the flip to that if you don't ask you don't get so I dunno.
 

Carntyne

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Sounds like a bit of an overreaction but speak to him and let him know if you feel it's over the top. The quickest way to fix it.
 

Tooktook

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I think personally the comment is fine if it was intended in a good natured non lecherous way.

Personal rant:

What concerns me with society at the moment is that everything is becoming so hyper sensitive and risk averse, it’s sometimes better not to say anything at all.

The other day I got a telling off for offering a lady a seat on the tube.

I suppose in the current climate it would be best to err on the side of caution.
 

gazthomas

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I think personally the comment is fine if it was intended in a good natured non lecherous way.

Personal rant:

What concerns me with society at the moment is that everything is becoming so hyper sensitive and risk averse, it’s sometimes better not to say anything at all.

The other day I got a telling off for offering a lady a seat on the tube.

I suppose in the current climate it would be best to err on the side of caution.
The girl next door to me was definitely uncomfortable. I think times have changed. As a man I think the way we view things is quite different
 

DarloRich

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I’m on a XC service northbound at Oxford as I write this. There is an ostensibly jolly guard/manager but I think he is crossing the line - he told the girl sitting next to me how pretty her railcard photo was as an example.

Am I being sensitive? Do you have your own examples?

you are being massively over sensitive. Massively.
 

gcmozart

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It does seem to be an unnecessary comment, and I am not surprised it made the young woman uncomfortable, so is best left unsaid in my opinion.
 

farleigh

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I have no problem with the comment, but for the guards own protection - whether you agree or not - he would be safer to refrain
 

DynamicSpirit

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I’m on a XC service northbound at Oxford as I write this. There is an ostensibly jolly guard/manager but I think he is crossing the line - he told the girl sitting next to me how pretty her railcard photo was as an example.

Am I being sensitive? Do you have your own examples?

Impossible to tell without being there and seeing it, because so much depends on how it was said, tone of voice, body language and so on. I agree with Tooktook that the comment should be fine, provided it was made in a friendly manner. And most importantly, it should be made with the intention of simply paying a compliment, and without any expectation of getting anything in return. If you're saying that the comment really was made in a purely friendly manner - so that it was nothing more than a simple compliment paid to a stranger, and yet still the woman concerned appeared uncomfortable, then that to me suggests something wrong with the way our society is heading. We know from many news stories over the past year that in many walks of life there have been real problems with sexual harassment/discrimination for a long time. But simply paying a stranger a compliment in that brief moment before you walk away, probably never to see that person ever again, is a million miles away from that.

On the other hand, if the comment was made in a way that was lecherous/etc. then that clearly would be wrong, and most people would very reasonably feel uncomfortable. Like I said, no way to tell without having been there and seen it first hand.

But I do hope as a society we don't end up in a position where people in public-facing roles such as guards don't end up unable to say anything friendly to the people they interact with for fear of it being misinterpreted.
 

YorkshireBear

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I encountered this guard the other day. He said it to every woman with a railcard/photocard and the younger ones he would comment that their destination was a party town.

For the males he would comment the other way saying things like, you could have smiled on your photo, or your photo is better than the real thing etc etc.

I didn't find it offensive in anyway but with the world the way it is I thought it was brave.
 

PaulLothian

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I feel it was not necessary and, because it could conceivably cause offence or anxiety, better not said. Human communication isn't just what is said, but about the listener's interpretation of what is said. I have spent much of my working life dealing with people who end up in the justice system through misunderstanding that important point!

I think personally the comment is fine if it was intended in a good natured non lecherous way.

Personal rant:

What concerns me with society at the moment is that everything is becoming so hyper sensitive and risk averse, it’s sometimes better not to say anything at all.

The other day I got a telling off for offering a lady a seat on the tube.

I suppose in the current climate it would be best to err on the side of caution.

I have always adopted the principle that I would offer a seat to anyone who appeared to need it through age or disability, rather than out of gender-based gallantry. Not everyone I offer a seat has taken it, but they have always declined politely, presumably sharing an understanding with me of why I offered.
 

cuccir

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It's complicated. The problem (I think) is twofold:

1. What I think #metoo etc has revealed is that almost every woman has at least a couple of experiences of men pushing it too far - sometimes to the point of illegal sexual harassment, but perhaps more often to the point of being a jerk.

So while an innocuous remark is an innocuous remark, in that first moment, a woman doesn't know if this bloke is making a quick light comment, or if this is going to be another case of someone coming to chat to her all journey, or each time she travels. If she is a regular traveller, will she have to smile politely and laugh with him each journey?

2. Women get chatted at more than men. So when they're out and about, their day will be interrupted more frequently. What if a woman just doesn't feel like it that day? Or is trying to focus on something else? I'm sure both men and women have experiences of having to humour someone with small talk when they don't feel like it; but it's very different if that's a daily, a weekly, or a monthly experience.

Don't get me wrong - this is not crime of the century. I sort of agree with the argument that in public space, we will interact with people who irritate us a little and that's a feature of life. BUT I also think that a man interacting with a stranger in this way - particularly in the context of their own workplace - could better reflect on the position that he's putting her in. It is possible to smile to and make small talk with a stranger without referring to their looks and this is probably a better approach.
 

Taunton

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The other day I got a telling off for offering a lady a seat on the tube.
The best reply in this situation is :

"Madam, I offer my seat, not because you are a Lady, but because I am a Gentleman".
 

DarloRich

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It's complicated. The problem (I think) is twofold:

1. What I think #metoo etc has revealed is that almost every woman has at least a couple of experiences of men pushing it too far - sometimes to the point of illegal sexual harassment, but perhaps more often to the point of being a jerk.

So while an innocuous remark is an innocuous remark, in that first moment, a woman doesn't know if this bloke is making a quick light comment, or if this is going to be another case of someone coming to chat to her all journey, or each time she travels. If she is a regular traveller, will she have to smile politely and laugh with him each journey?

2. Women get chatted at more than men. So when they're out and about, their day will be interrupted more frequently. What if a woman just doesn't feel like it that day? Or is trying to focus on something else? I'm sure both men and women have experiences of having to humour someone with small talk when they don't feel like it; but it's very different if that's a daily, a weekly, or a monthly experience.

Don't get me wrong - this is not crime of the century. I sort of agree with the argument that in public space, we will interact with people who irritate us a little and that's a feature of life. BUT I also think that a man interacting with a stranger in this way - particularly in the context of their own workplace - could better reflect on the position that he's putting her in. It is possible to smile to and make small talk with a stranger without referring to their looks and this is probably a better approach.

such right on, overblown nonsense.

IF the guard was checking tickets, asked for a railcard and remarked that's a nice picture and moved on there is nothing to comment on.

If he went PHWOAR you have a cracking set of baps love we might have something to complain about.

BTW - I have chatted up loads of women and usually failed. I haven't sexually molested anyone though. The simple action of talking to a woman you don't know appears to be prohibited these days.
 
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Essan

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How times change. Being nice and friendly, complimenting a woman on their appearnace, or being a gentleman, is now offensive and insulting ....
 

Tooktook

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The best reply in this situation is :

"Madam, I offer my seat, not because you are a Lady, but because I am a Gentleman".

It’s worth a try. I would never deliberately set out to offend people. But commuting can be quite a minefield with all the different sensitivities that exist.

I would agree with an earlier comment too that I would hate to see individual personality sacrificed, and everyone acting as robots (obviously people need to act respectfully).
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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What if he had bent down and called a child in a pram a "beautiful baby" or such like, is there any difference? Nope and nothing would be said about that. Complimenting someone is not a bad thing. He made a compliment, moved on, as should a lot of the people on here.

Although knowing this forum this will probably end up being a much longer thread than some of the actual serious threads that are important to discuss.
 

AlterEgo

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Sounds like a bit of an overreaction but speak to him and let him know if you feel it's over the top. The quickest way to fix it.

The subject of his comments should be the person to address it. I don’t think we have any idea the comments were unwelcome, unless the OP could see she was definitely uncomfortable. EDIT: apparently she was, my bad for not seeing that! :)

Women are capable of speaking up for themselves.
 
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AlterEgo

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I’m on a XC service northbound at Oxford as I write this. There is an ostensibly jolly guard/manager but I think he is crossing the line - he told the girl sitting next to me how pretty her railcard photo was as an example.

Am I being sensitive? Do you have your own examples?

Giving someone a compliment isn’t banter.

Banter takes place between two people of roughly equal standing, and consists of insults. Banter is an important part of bonding when done properly.
 

Raul_Duke

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Although knowing this forum this will probably end up being a much longer thread than some of the actual serious threads that are important to discuss.

A fair number of people on here are... how do I put this politely..... not hugely proficient with their social skills for various reasons.

Particularly recognising other people’s feelings/emotions/intentions etc.
 

rebmcr

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The girl next door to me was definitely uncomfortable.

It does seem to be an unnecessary comment, and I am not surprised it made the young woman uncomfortable, so is best left unsaid in my opinion.

Hear Hear!

I encountered this guard the other day. He said it to every woman with a railcard/photocard and the younger ones he would comment that their destination was a party town.

For the males he would comment the other way saying things like, you could have smiled on your photo, or your photo is better than the real thing etc etc.

Now that is actually kind of sinister. What a creep!
 

AlterEgo

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And these days other people are far more capable of getting offended on their behalf. This isn't just women though, it's anything.

Everything is such a minefield now, particularly for young men.

What #metoo has laid bare is that a lot of women do get unwanted attention which can amount to harassment and even assault. This is an indisputable fact and is not a good reflection on our society.

In real life, a lot of the women I know personally don’t really identify with that movement. They aren’t feminists in the modern sense, and there’s a lack of agreement about what constitutes harassment. In short, they think #metoo is a lot of old cobblers.

Trump made disgusting comments about “grabbing women by the p***y”, which were unacceptable for anyone to make. Yet, in real life, I’ve had some women tell me they actually like that. A lot of women find domineering and controlling men attractive. They’re not sick in the head.

I don’t recall the same issues being a problem when I was a teenager. I don’t know what the solution is, but I thought I’d throw a little life experience into the mix. I’m not going to elaborate too much as this is a forum with universal appeal, but it certainly makes for an interesting debate down the pub.
 

DarloRich

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A fair number of people on here are... how do I put this politely..... not hugely proficient with their social skills for various reasons.

Particularly recognising other people’s feelings/emotions/intentions etc.

A fair number of people on here are... how do I put this politely..... detached from reality and live in an ultra right on fantasy world where offence is taken to every minor issue leaving them unable to understand what is a problem and what isnt.

Offering a compliment isnt a problem. Making unacceptable sexual advances is. How can the difference between the two be such a difficult concept to grasp?
 

Loop & Link

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A fair number of people on here are... how do I put this politely..... detached from reality and live in an ultra right on fantasy world where offence is taken to every minor issue leaving them unable to understand what is a problem and what isnt.

Offering a compliment isnt a problem. Making unacceptable sexual advances is. How can the difference between the two be such a difficult concept to grasp?

I’d be surprised if most of the people on here, knew what a sexual advance was full stop.
 
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