Class 142 Bad Condition

[ed1971]

Hello TrainBrain185,

You mentioned earlier that the Pacer SCG gearbox was an updated version of that used on first generation DMUs.

Can you explain why there were so many failures with the Pacer gearboxes in so short of a time? The last first generation DMUs to survive in quantity, (First North Western's class 101s), were only withdrawn in December 2003, after being in service for approximately 47 years.

I remember that in March 1990, I caught ill fated 142059 from Wigan to Preston. It could not build up any real speed as one of the gearboxes seemed to keep coming out of gear and the engine just reved as if it was in neutral. I caught the same unit a week later on the same journey and it seemed to run fine. However, when I travelled on it again in June, it had been converted to Voith. This was the unit later written off in the collision at Liverpool Lime Street in October 1991, when the brakes failed.

Regards.

 

[TrainBrain185]

Hello TrainBrain185,

You mentioned earlier that the Pacer SCG gearbox was an updated version of that used on first generation DMUs.

Can you explain why there were so many failures with the Pacer gearboxes in so short of a time? The last first generation DMUs to survive in quantity, (First North Western's class 101s), were only withdrawn in December 2003, after being in service for approximately 47 years.

I remember that in March 1990, I caught ill fated 142059 from Wigan to Preston. It could not build up any real speed as one of the gearboxes seemed to keep coming out of gear and the engine just reved as if it was in neutral. I caught the same unit a week later on the same journey and it seemed to run fine. However, when I travelled on it again in June, it had been converted to Voith. This was the unit later written off in the collision at Liverpool Lime Street in October 1991, when the brakes failed.

Regards.

Hi ed, Wow, quite a while since I was involved with the "old" spec Pacer. The gearboxes as I can barely remember suffered a couple of probs mainly from the output drive where they developed vibration faults pulling off in bottom gear, also the gear annalus band slippage problems as you observed seeming as if stuck in neutral. Slippage was so bad that one example sounded like a Voith conversion, but at least worked until it went to Doncaster to be Voithed a week later. Like I said earlier in a message somewhere, in early days they were plagued with multitudes of problems, that bad, we were pulling back out retired examples of Class 108's and even a couple of 117's from anywhere we could get them from, taffying them up and pushing them back into service to release 47's and 3 coach Mk1 rakes which were a problem have to run them around the other end of the coaches at each terminating station.
Braking related, problems became so bad with early examples overshooting the platforms that we had to place a specially designed load cell unit in place of each brake block to test brake force against the wheel. More often, they failed the test which meant we had to change a wretched big brake cable operating between the brake actuator and the brake block. One night shift, I changed brake cables on one unit, got the damn thing back home from work in the morning, guess what? It still overshot a platform!! Me or the design?
The TL11 kept blowing head gaskets and "boiling up" of the coolant system, also fuel dilution in the sump oil and every night, we used to have to drain oil samples and get them analyzed. In essence, I found the Leyland engine actually worse a problem than the transmission.
You mention the Class 101 having similar style of engine-transmission. Strangely enough, the formula worked with a naturally aspirated BUT680 and semi auto box, not so with a 142/143 TL11-semi auto. Probably in bus terms, for example, the Tiger was never as reliable as the Leopard.
Hope this is of help.
Regards:

 

[Spaceflower]

Why is it that apart from the class 180's why do Northern end up with the dog ends of the DMU's?

the clue is in the name

 

[ed1971]

Hello TrainBrain185,

Thanks for your reply.

I do remember all too well the early Pacer problems. They seemed to have reached their peak in 1988, the year I left school. I often travelled to Blackpool from Wigan. Often many Liverpool Lime street and Manchester Vic to Blackpool North services were operated by substitutes consisting of class 31 or 47 locos and Mk1 carriages. Preston to Barrow In Furness services were often covered by 31s as well, so were Manchester Vic To Southport, apparently the first use of loco haulage on this line since the demise of steam! It seemed that maintenance staff at the time worked wonders to actually keep trains running to a reasonable time, especially considering the time taken to swap the loco around at the destinations!

From what I gather, the TL11 engine was an updated and turbocharged version of the earlier O.680. However, I am a little confused as there appears to be some hybrids. For example, a cross between the two engines known as the '4000' series which was fitted to the final version of the Leyland 'Atlantean' bus, coded AN68D. There was also the non turbocharged version of the TL11 known as the L11, fitted to many later National 2s. I remember that some first generation DMUs were re-engined in the 1990s with a Leyland engine coded 1595. Some of these were class 101s. The cylinder head of the engine looked like a TL11. Last year, I saw one of these on a preserved 117 operating on the Embsay railway. A closer look revealed that it said 'L11' on the cylinder head.

A local coach company operated a number of old Leyland Tigers until quite recently. They say that the TL11s didn't give them much trouble. I remember reading somewhere that the TL11 was just about ok in buses and coaches, but it didn't like long periods of idling, which resulted in head gasket failures that you mention.

In 1988, Leyland stopped making their own engines and the Cummins L10 became the usual engine in Leyland buses although some still had Gardners and later on Volvos were fitted too.

DAF manufactured O.680 engines under licence for many years and then did one better by developing it into their more powerful 11.6 litre 1160 range of engines, which seemed a better product to the TL11. Ironically, the O.680 is still manufactured by Ashok leyland in India for marine use and is turbocharged.

There was one of the two prototype 150s that used a Rolls Royce 'Eagle' engine and SCG gearboxes, but the driveline was not used for production units (probably just as well)!

Regards.

 

[poshbakerloo]

The 142s are awful! It was only yesterday that I had to take one from Piccadilly to Deansgate...

I could hear it coming before I could see it (very loud screeching as it came round the curve) and then the doors had broken so they had to be opened manually, it was very crowded, smelt of diesel and I'm pretty sure I saw daylight come through where the couplings are between the carriages when we pulled into Oxford Road!

 

[ed1971]

Pacers may not be to everyone's liking, but I can tell you that they are nowhere near as 'awful' as many of the first generation DMUs which they helped to replace, particularly the class 104s. http://www.railcar.co.uk/his100-109/104intro.htm

All classes of first generation units (except some of the very last ones with MK2 bogies), rode terribly over jointed track, were noisy and vibrated like hell. The 104s had dreary dark wooden stained interiors which were latterly filthy. Some even had exhaust fumes coming in! I appreciate that some forum members may be too young to remember the old DMUs, but these two videos will give you some idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmeMKaR-TJU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0TTVNQJ12E&feature=related

I was pleased when the problems with the Pacers started to be rectified and these old decrepid units could be scrapped. Pacers may also have helped to save some branch lines from closure, so I think that we have a lot to thank them for.

The units I don't like are the 150s, as they are claustrophobic, have poor lineside visibility, the engines are too noisy and the 150/1s particularly are too hot inside during summer. I have read elsewhere that this is because it is necessary to keep the heating on to keep the engines running cool.

 

[The_Stig]

I took a pic of one at Preston on the 25th June '09

I had not seen one in years. It was rather noisy.

The missus said that it was moe like a bus with train wheels!

 

[ed1971]

Ah yes, 142017 is one of the Heaton based ex Arriva Trains Northern 142s, refurbished with the comfy seats.

 

[poshbakerloo]

^^^^Some have been refurbished...but this only makes the best of what is available...they are still not good...with there 3 doors

 

[MCR247]

There are 4 doors arent there. :?

 

[90019]

There are 4 doors arent there. :?

3 per side on a 2 car pacer.

 

[350401]

^^^^Some have been refurbished...but this only makes the best of what is available...they are still not good...with there 3 doors

I actually quite like the 142s, though much prefer some refurbs to others. The ex-ATN reburbs are really nice - comfy high backed seats, if a bit tatty. 2+2 seating too - which is way nicer than the 3+2 seating on the other units. They compensated for reducing the seating capacity through removing the bike/standing area at one end, running seats the whole way down - an aspect I really like as 2 bike/disabled areas on such a small train doesn't really make sense. The Merseyrail refurbs aren't actually all that bad - prefer it to the FNW bus-benches - at least it is 3 defined seats and being 5ft 7, i can fit in easily . Northern have done a pretty decent job cleaning the units up and making a bus-bench as comfy as it could concievably be! Whenever I get a choice of units (i.e. 2x142 coupled up) I always weigh up the units before boarding - preference running ATN then Merseyrail then NT refurb and last the FNW refurbed units. I've not seen any of the other refurbs (Wessex refurb and FGW refurb) - though they look good and I'd like to travel on such a unit if they ever came north!

I don't think the 142s should be retired for a while yet, rather be retained as new/cascaded units roll into NT, thus boosting capacity. As its common sense, I doubt that will happen though - more likely as the 150/2s from Centro come to NT in 2011, the 142s get retired?

 

[ed1971]

^^^^Some have been refurbished...but this only makes the best of what is available...they are still not good...with there 3 doors

Despite this, the 142s wide doorways makes boarding and alighting a lot easier than the 156s which are now used on local services. They were designed for cross country use.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As its common sense, I doubt that will happen though - more likely as the 150/2s from Centro come to NT in 2011, the 142s get retired?

I hope that ex Centro 150/2s don't replace Northern's 142s. Don't forget that 150s are the same vintage. If they do I won't be travelling on them. Instead I'll take to the road and whack the air con on! Some new DMUs (designed for local services) are really needed, which have luxuries such as air con and bogies!

 

[F Great Eastern]

From what I've seen of the FGW refurbs they look rather good,k but I haven't been on one so if anyone else could review them it would be appreciated.

 

[poshbakerloo]

Despite this, the 142s wide doorways makes boarding and alighting a lot easier than the 156s which are now used on local services. They were designed for cross country use.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I hope that ex Centro 150/2s don't replace Northern's 142s. Don't forget that 150s are the same vintage. If they do I won't be travelling on them. Instead I'll take to the road and whack the air con on! Some new DMUs (designed for local services) are really needed, which have luxuries such as air con and bogies!

150s and 156s and far better. Better layout, much smoother ride, better for tight curves and steep gradients and I think they look better...

 

[ed1971]

A bogied unit will obviously be better for riding on tight curves and kinder on the track than a two axle one.

I've never noticed a problem with Pacer acceleration since the Cummins LT10R engines were fitted in the mid 1990s. The original Leyland TL11s were noisy and sluggish when coupled to a Voith gearbox and they often failed.

The narrow doorways on 156s are a problem when there are a lot of people boarding and alighting, the same goes for 158s. The 185s are a lot better.

I recall reading a article in a 1980s rail magazine about the 150's EMU variants the 317, 318 and 455. They are based on MK3 carriage stock. The windows are the same size as MK3 carriages, hence why seats are not aligned with the windows. The article also pointed out the 'weak front end design'. I feel that the 150, 317, 318 and 455 look like a 'dogs breakfast'. The 150/1s without the gangways look a little better, but not much. At least the EMU variants don't have a very noisy engine under the floor.

Metro Cammell paid much more attention to detail with the sylish 151 and it's a pity that it never went into production. http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?i...=127&prev=/images?q=class+151&hl=en&sa=G&um=1

I don't know about the FGW refurbs, but I've seen an Arriva Wales refurbished 150/2 on Youtube. The interior has been sprayed brilliant white which helps somewhat to give a more airy atmosphere. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8qU74WcRW8

I have been thinking about a Pacer replacement. With electrification schemes being mooted, maybe it would be wise to build a underfloor engined DEMU which could be easily converted to a EMU (by fitting a transformer, rectifier and pantograph and dispensing with the diesel engine and generator), should there be massive electrification. There are these units that work in Germany that either run on Diesel or on electrified lines. They are a sort of Pacer with bogies:- http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/private/passenger/AKN/akn243a.jpg

 

[WillPS]

The ends of Sprinters look horrific, I always have thought that they're really lazy trains - not even bothering to redesign the ends. The Wessex Electrics show how it should have been done!

 

[audigex]

The Northern 156s are nicely done up, but they had the advantage of not being crap to start with. 142s, even with comfy seats, will still be noisy and bouncy, screech round corners and a bloody uncomfortable ride.

Replace any 142 with a 156/158 and watch customer satisfaction on that line soar. The look on people's faces on the cumbrian coast when a 142 turned up instead of a 156 said everything. They're not nice trains.

 

[ed1971]

Granted, the 156 was one of the few types of units to work reliably from the start without any major modifications. However, they bear more of a family resemblance to the 150 than Met Camm's stylish 151 design.

I used to travel by DMU a lot in the early 80s before there were any Pacers or Sprinters. The ride on the first generation units was really bad and I seem to recall that Wigan to Southport took nearly an hour calling at all stops. Today a Pacer will do it for around 35 minutes. You need to take a ride on an old preserved DMU to find out how bad they were compared to Pacers.

Someone else on another forum pointed out that whatever unit replaces the Pacers will need to be able to carry 6-8 cycles like the 142s can. Another suggestion has been to build a new fleet of Pacers with bogies.

 

[poshbakerloo]

The ends of Sprinters look horrific, I always have thought that they're really lazy trains - not even bothering to redesign the ends. The Wessex Electrics show how it should have been done!

I don't think they look that bad...A bit functional but I have seen some that have been pained with the cab windows having a black outline that extends down to the lights which looks quite good.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Someone else on another forum pointed out that whatever unit replaces the Pacers will need to be able to carry 6-8 cycles like the 142s can. Another suggestion has been to build a new fleet of Pacers with bogies.

The main issue I have with the pacers is the current bogies and the 3 doors per carriage...If this was fixed then I wouldn't mind them so much.

 

[90019]

The ends of Sprinters look horrific, I always have thought that they're really lazy trains - not even bothering to redesign the ends. The Wessex Electrics show how it should have been done!

And of course, how the front of the train looks is really important when you're travelling on it...

 

[WillPS]

And of course, how the front of the train looks is really important when you're travelling on it...

Well... yes and no. Ultimately, trains are your everyday visual marketing tool - which is why you never see Sprinters advertising TOCs (unless they actually have nothing better, like Northern). Aesthetics do contribute to passenger satisfaction too... although admittedly it's not an underlying factor. If they weren't, then why would operators be so keen on having their fleet in their livery!

 

[ed1971]

My main issues with the 150s are the claustrophobic and boiling hot interiors; a ride on one in the hot weather we are having at the moment is a no no for me. The Pacers by contrast are much more airy. The engines are also very noisy.

It think that it pays when designing something to pay attention to every small detail. Just look how long the London 'Routemaster' bus lasted. It became a symbol of London (and indeed England) worldwide. There was fierce opposition to it being phased out, largely due to disabled access rules. In fact there are plans for a modern version now.

The Northern livery seems to make any unit look much smarter. The original 3 class 142 liveries looked garish. In fact all the liveries they have carried since have looked much better. The original livery carried by the 150/2s looked good and it later became the 'Regional Railways' livery.

With all the electrification schemes being mooted, it would be nice if Northern could get some cascaded 170s. They are a big advance on 150s, quieter engines and better visibility and look better.

In the early 1980s when the class 141s were built, it was then estimated that bogies added £30,000 to the cost of each carriage.

 

[audigex]

I think Northern would get some 170s cascaded... if any were dropping down the food chain. They're still rather in demand, and Northern (along with Arriva) seem to get the tail end.

They should paint the lot in London Midland livery - I've no idea what their service is like, but any livery that can make a 153 look good is worth having.

 

[MCR247]

I think Northern would get some 170s cascaded... if any were dropping down the food chain. They're still rather in demand, and Northern (along with Arriva) seem to get the tail end.

They should paint the lot in London Midland livery - I've no idea what their service is like, but any livery that can make a 153 look good is worth having.

you forgot EMT! But I think if some where cascaded they should be sent to EMT

 

[ed1971]

I've just found a video of one of those sickening class 150/1 vibrating 'furnaces'!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieEbHwAKS5w&feature=channel

It would really put the dampers on my day if this turned up instead of a 142!

 

[poshbakerloo]

I've just found a video of one of those sickening class 150/1 vibrating 'furnaces'!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieEbHwAKS5w&feature=channel

It would really put the dampers on my day if this turned up instead of a 142!

142s made me feel ill! I had eaten too many sweets and felt sick, the fact that the train was bumping around made it worse!

 

[ed1971]

142s made me feel ill! I had eaten too many sweets and felt sick, the fact that the train was bumping around made it worse!

150/1s make me feel opressed, especially on a hot day. In fact I've often waited of the next service rather than travel on them, time permitting.

 

[37372]

Northern's fleet of 150/1s is appauling. Not only do they get extremely hot inside, the interiors need a good clean (and preferably some new seats/seat covers) and as that video shows at 0:13 and other points, when they are idling they vibrate like a pneumatic drill.

On the plus side however the size of the toilet is immense!

Although times when I've been stuck on them in hot, noisy conditions I've actually thought to myself "I'd rather be on a pacer!"

 

[poshbakerloo]

Northern's fleet of 150/1s is appauling. Not only do they get extremely hot inside, the interiors need a good clean (and preferably some new seats/seat covers) and as that video shows at 0:13 and other points, when they are idling they vibrate like a pneumatic drill.

On the plus side however the size of the toilet is immense!

Although times when I've been stuck on them in hot, noisy conditions I've actually thought to myself "I'd rather be on a pacer!"

I would rather be stuck in a hot 150 that a hot, noisy, bumpy and all most dangerous 142 (the bodyshell sheers away from the under frame in crashed it happened somewhere in Cheshire not long ago it says on wikipedia)...