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Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

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northwichcat

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If I am not mistaken, I believe that some sections of the East Coast route from London Kings Cross to Edinburgh may be having the present overhead lines replaced so as to cope with the Azumas.

Would it be possible to reuse these wires for the Valley Lines network? After all, Cardiff Queen Street and points north are extremely unlikely to see Intercity type trains.

I'm not an electrical expert but I'd be surprised if that made much difference to the cost of Valley Lines electrification. If anything it might make it less viable e.g. if reused wires need replacement after 10 years while new ones last 40.
 
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Domh245

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As far as I'm aware, most of the IEP related works on the East Coast are to do with providing additional power rather than replacing the physical components. And even then, OLE installations are somewhat bespoke, you don't just rip it out of location a and reinstall it at location b - there is plenty of careful design and planning to accommodate all sorts of things such as pointwork, curvature, level crossings and bridges. Not to mention that you would still be missing the piles needed to put any resited equipment on - and they are usually the part that takes longest to complete.

Also, the ECML electrification is notoriously rubbish, and at lot of it's flaws won't go away just because it's being used on slower tracks - the only place it should go once removed from the ECML is the scrapyard.
 

PHILIPE

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The ATW franchise agreement has provision for an extension up to 7 reporting periods (28 weeks) from 14 Oct 2018.
Anything more than that would need a negotiated Direct Award or similar.
WG has to give 3 months notice of the extension.

That will mean the severe overcrowding will continue and what will happen to the PRM Mods for which the "clock is ticking".
 

Parallel

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That will mean the severe overcrowding will continue and what will happen to the PRM Mods for which the "clock is ticking".
I am still absolutely shocked that nothing has been done to the fleet in light of this. Fair enough if ATW or WG don't know what stock will be available just before 2020, but I'd imagine the 150s will have use SOMEWHERE... And will need the mods regardless. There can't even be that much left to do with the 158s and especially the 175s. I feel stressed just thinking about it. :lol:
 

gareth950

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I am still absolutely shocked that nothing has been done to the fleet in light of this. Fair enough if ATW or WG don't know what stock will be available just before 2020, but I'd imagine the 150s will have use SOMEWHERE... And will need the mods regardless. There can't even be that much left to do with the 158s and especially the 175s. I feel stressed just thinking about it. :lol:

Ken Skates has announced that the awarding of the new franchise will take place 'at the end of May'. Unless a large secret order for D-trains has been placed, that will give Wales 18 months to get it's entire fleet compliant for 2020.

I think it' safe to say that Skates' 'made in Wales, world class, transformational' etc rail franchise will start off running the only non-disability compliant, technically illegal trains in the UK.
It's not like they were warned about that 5 years ago though.
 

Gareth Marston

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Ken Skates has announced that the awarding of the new franchise will take place 'at the end of May'. Unless a large secret order for D-trains has been placed, that will give Wales 18 months to get it's entire fleet compliant for 2020.

I think it' safe to say that Skates' 'made in Wales, world class, transformational' etc rail franchise will start off running the only non-disability compliant, technically illegal trains in the UK.
It's not like they were warned about that 5 years ago though.

Don't worry it will be "the other boys fault".

On a more positive note enthusiasm in the Senned for a £1.5 Billion plus duplicate section of M4 seems to be waning:

From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-42797203
There appeared to be a distinct lack of supportive noise behind Carwyn Jones when he and Andrew RT Davies locked horns over the cost of the M4 relief road during First Minister's questions.

It may be too great a leap to interpret that as dwindling support within Labour ranks but there must surely be concern about the escalating price tag, which inflation and VAT does not explain, despite the best efforts of Carwyn Jones.

After all, it was only in 2015 that the First Minister said it would come in at nowhere near £1bn.

Unfortunately for him he was right, but in the wrong direction.

From http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/ne...avies_butt_heads_over_cost_of_M4_relief_road/
Speaking afterwards, Mr Davies said: “Despite the first minister’s claims, the cost of the Black Route has spiralled and we cannot write a blank cheque for this project.

"There has to be a tipping point at which the Welsh Government reconsiders its unconditional support for the black route."

He added: "Something needs to be done to tackle congestion on the M4, but it’s clear from the first minister’s comments today that he simply hasn’t grasped the huge increases in costs.
 

Rhydgaled

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I am still absolutely shocked that nothing has been done to the fleet in light of this. Fair enough if ATW or WG don't know what stock will be available just before 2020, but I'd imagine the 150s will have use SOMEWHERE... And will need the mods regardless. There can't even be that much left to do with the 158s and especially the 175s. I feel stressed just thinking about it. :lol:
Ken Skates has announced that the awarding of the new franchise will take place 'at the end of May'. Unless a large secret order for D-trains has been placed, that will give Wales 18 months to get it's entire fleet compliant for 2020.
That's 18 months to deal with the Pacers and class 153s (oh, and the mark 3s, which are probably the most difficult to replace). The class 769 bi-modes due into service within the term of Arriva's contract are supposed to allow the class 150s to go for PRM mods and possibly the 158s for retention toilets. Of course if the 769s are late or the works are at capacity and cannot complete the units in time the new TOC might still breach the PRM regs, but there is at least a plan for making the 150s and 158s compliant.
 
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northwichcat

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That's 18 months to deal with the Pacers and class 153s. The class 769 bi-modes due into service within the term of Arriva's contract are supposed to allow the class 150s to go for PRM mods and possibly the 158s for retention toilets. Of course if the 769s are late or the works are at capacity and cannot complete the units in time the new TOC might still breach the PRM regs, but there is at least a plan for making the 150s and 158s compliant.

If the postings on wnxx are to believed (including one from Tony Miles) the Northern 769s won't appear in service this year and the W&B 769s were due to be produced after the Northern ones.
 

Rhydgaled

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If the postings on wnxx are to believed (including one from Tony Miles) the Northern 769s won't appear in service this year and the W&B 769s were due to be produced after the Northern ones.
Oh dear... Still, if the 769s are late then the W&B TOC can blame the failure to meet the PRM deadline on the ROSCO who should have supplied the 769s and hopefully thus get a derrogation to allow them to continue running trains rather than replacement road transport.
 

HH

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Class 230s (as the D Trains are now termed) are one option. There are others, but I don't think it's possible to replace the whole existing fleet in time. Therefore bidders are going to have to waste a deal of money (with the tight timescales increasing the cost) making existing units compliant that they then ditch a couple of years later. It looks like disastrous management by TfW.
 

dgl

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Vivarail must be laughing now, all the put down of their product yet it turns out that barring some sort of miracle they are currently the only (apart from derogation, a massive train order (with near 0% chance of being delivered before the PRM cutoff) or massive amounts of electrification and using displaced EMU's) solution to Wales' looming PRM crisis. Converted tube trains they may be but at least they are PRM compliant, diesel, undergoing testing and should be quick to convert once all the niggles are ironed out.
 

northwichcat

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Would Vivarail be able to produce something like 80 vehicles* within 18 months of getting an order confirmed? I realise they have shells ready to use but I don't think they have facilities for large scale production of units like Bombardier, Siemens, Hitachi or CAF have.

* Presuming enough to replace the 142s, 143s and 153s with a few additional due to needing 2 car sets to replace single 153s.
 

dgl

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Would Vivarail be able to produce something like 80 vehicles* within 18 months of getting an order confirmed? I realise they have shells ready to use but I don't think they have facilities for large scale production of units like Bombardier, Siemens, Hitachi or CAF have.

* Presuming enough to replace the 142s, 143s and 153s with a few additional due to needing 2 car sets to replace single 153s.
It would have to me mixed with some derogation and possibly combined with conversion of some LHCS or more intercity 125's for longer routes, this might also entail the transfer of 175 to other routes and using IC coaches (such as the converted 125's).
This, of course, assumes there are significant facilities to do the work and significant stock available for conversion.
If LHCS was to be used then either unused DB 67's or 68's DRS have any spare.
 

Parallel

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The way this is going, they may as well just fit the mods to the 14x and 153s too! :lol:

As soon as any Northern or GWR pacers come off lease, ATW should snap them up to send off some 150s and 158s. Pity some GWR pacers are now expected to last until 2019...
 

gareth950

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Oh dear... Still, if the 769s are late then the W&B TOC can blame the failure to meet the PRM deadline on the ROSCO who should have supplied the 769s and hopefully thus get a derrogation to allow them to continue running trains rather than replacement road transport.

Hardly - the ROSCO is not to blame. Welsh Govt were warned by Porterbrook in October 2013 when Porterbrook gave evidence to an Assembly transport committee that Welsh Govt needed to take immediate action to start making plans to start modifying Wales' fleet to get it ready in time for 2020 without severe shortages due to trains being sent away. Welsh govt repeatedly ignored more warnings until last year when Ken Skates started to panic. He first blamed the DfT (as usual) then finally ordered 5 x 769s last July. If it hadn't been for the 2020 deadline those trains would not have been ordered.

Class 230s (as the D Trains are now termed) are one option. There are others, but I don't think it's possible to replace the whole existing fleet in time. Therefore bidders are going to have to waste a deal of money (with the tight timescales increasing the cost) making existing units compliant that they then ditch a couple of years later. It looks like disastrous management by TfW.

Disastrous mismanagement by first Welsh Govt, and now TfW. But I'm sure ATW, DfT and Porterbrook will be blamed somehow. It will be anyone's fault but Welsh Govt's.
 

Gareth Marston

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Hardly - the ROSCO is not to blame. Welsh Govt were warned by Porterbrook in October 2013 when Porterbrook gave evidence to an Assembly transport committee that Welsh Govt needed to take immediate action to start making plans to start modifying Wales' fleet to get it ready in time for 2020 without severe shortages due to trains being sent away. Welsh govt repeatedly ignored more warnings until last year when Ken Skates started to panic. He first blamed the DfT (as usual) then finally ordered 5 x 769s last July. If it hadn't been for the 2020 deadline those trains would not have been ordered.



Disastrous mismanagement by first Welsh Govt, and now TfW. But I'm sure ATW, DfT and Porterbrook will be blamed somehow. It will be anyone's fault but Welsh Govt's.

Having whined and whined for years to have power over rail in a Wales the reality of actually having to be responsible and make the right decisions at the right time has come knocking and they have been found wanting. Not a good portent.
 

Dai Corner

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Having whined and whined for years to have power over rail in a Wales the reality of actually having to be responsible and make the right decisions at the right time has come knocking and they have been found wanting. Not a good portent.

Some would probably argue that the words 'over rail' are superfluous!
 

Chester1

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The way this is going, they may as well just fit the mods to the 14x and 153s too! :lol:

As soon as any Northern or GWR pacers come off lease, ATW should snap them up to send off some 150s and 158s. Pity some GWR pacers are now expected to last until 2019...

5 x 2 coach 144s go off lease on 15th September, all 144s by 31st March 2019. The solution must be to run an adapted timetable from December 2018 to December 2019 that allows pacers to replace 150s on every sensible service while they go for mods on mass.

Maybe they will use light rail conversion of Valleys Lines to justify closures from 1st January 2020 until they are all converted!
 

gareth950

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5 x 2 coach 144s go off lease on 15th September, all 144s by 31st March 2019. The solution must be to run an adapted timetable from December 2018 to December 2019 that allows pacers to replace 150s on every sensible service while they go for mods on mass.

Maybe they will use light rail conversion of Valleys Lines to justify closures from 1st January 2020 until they are all converted!
Don't give them ideas. The A470 would become a permanent daily car park.
There's also a Welsh Assembly election scheduled for May 2021 - I think even this would be too big a political risk for Welsh Labour, presumably with a new leader just taken over.

Which is the least worst option - complete shut down of the network, or the limited bad press they will get of running 'illegal' trains with derrogations?

I agree the new operator needs to get hold of whatever Pacers and 153s it can to keep services going. At the least every effort should be made to get rid of 142s. ATWs 142s are luxurious compared to Northern's 142s however.
Wifi is now fitted to all of ATWs Pacers as well........
 
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Dai Corner

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5 x 2 coach 144s go off lease on 15th September, all 144s by 31st March 2019. The solution must be to run an adapted timetable from December 2018 to December 2019 that allows pacers to replace 150s on every sensible service while they go for mods on mass.

Maybe they will use light rail conversion of Valleys Lines to justify closures from 1st January 2020 until they are all converted!

There's a handy train factory being built in Newport where the mass mods could be done too ;)
 

Chester1

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A low grade PIS is quite cheap. The toilets could be locked out of use.

Which will prepare them for using trams!

Everything apart from the pacers can be made compliant by 31/12/2019 because of the huge numbers of pacers coming off lease to cover for units being modified. Pacers running services usually operated by 150s will anoy passengers but what is the alternative solution at this stage? New units would be a long term solution to a short term problem. Porterbrook own 5 GWR 143s (First own the other 3) and all 23 Northern 144s. There are 36 W&B 150s that need to be modified and the process seems to take approximately 2 to 3 months. Extra 143s and 144s and the 5 x 769s will be enough without needing to consider using any of the worse 142s.

Edit: There should be upto 12 x 185s going off lease on 31/12/2019, the same number of 158s could go for mods on 01/01/2020 and then be used for new services or doubling up once they are done. That would reduce the pressure to modify 158s prior to the deadline although they shouldn't need much work.
 
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Parallel

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You can’t release large amounts of 158s as they are the only units that can work the Cambrian so that would have to be a “couple at a time” job.

The whole of the Valley lines network could go to 100% Pacer, as well as Swanline, Pembroke Dock and Maesteg to Cheltenham. Due to crew knowledge, you couldn’t realistically run any on Wrexham To Bidston, Conwy Valley and Shrewsbury to Crewe stopper. Those would probably have to remain as 150s (or 153s)
 

Rhydgaled

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Therefore bidders are going to have to waste a deal of money (with the tight timescales increasing the cost) making existing units compliant that they then ditch a couple of years later. It looks like disastrous management by TfW.
That, or keeping the 150s long-term despite much reduced need for them once the ValleyLines are electrified, was always going to be the case due to the end date of ATW's franchise being too close to the 2020 PRM deadline to realistically order new trains.

Class 230s (as the D Trains are now termed) are one option. There are others, but I don't think it's possible to replace the whole existing fleet in time
I don't think the class 769 order has been cancelled, has it? So if the 769s are late, the 150s will be made compliant late, does the PRM legislation say anything about what happens if there is a plan in place to meet the deadline but implementation of that plan is delayed through no fault of the operator? The 158s I'm not sure are non-compliant anyway; the toilets dump onto the track which needs sorting but that's not a PRM thing. In what other respects do ATW's 158s differ from the GWR green 158s, which I believe are compliant?

As for the rest of the fleet, Greater Anglia's nine complaint class 156s are due off lease by the end of 2019; if the winning bidder for Wales & Borders can obtain them that's the 153s dealt with. If they can also get their hands on the five 156s ScotRail will be releasing (Dec 2018 possibly) that is four or five 150s moved to the valleys and, in turn, four or five Pacers gone. That leaves 25 Pacers, minus another couple when the 150s are all back from getting the PRM mods. There are 16 class 170s to be released elsewhere (some from ScotRail and some from GA) which could also be obtained to cascade 150s to replace Pacers, although EMT are likely to need those to replace their 153s. So, as you say, class 230s could be used but only, I hope, to replace the Pacers directly. That just leaves the two mark 3 rakes with no easy solution, unless CAF can tag on a few extra coaches to TPE's mark 5 order or Virgin East Coast release some mark 4s in time.

Hardly - the ROSCO is not to blame. Welsh Govt were warned by Porterbrook in October 2013 when Porterbrook gave evidence to an Assembly transport committee that Welsh Govt needed to take immediate action to start making plans to start modifying Wales' fleet to get it ready in time for 2020 without severe shortages due to trains being sent away. Welsh govt repeatedly ignored more warnings until last year when Ken Skates started to panic. He first blamed the DfT (as usual) then finally ordered 5 x 769s last July. If it hadn't been for the 2020 deadline those trains would not have been ordered.
I agree that the 769s, or something better, should have been ordered sooner; and that they would not have been ordered if the PRM deadline did not exist. However, I think the fact that somebody (presumably the ROSCO) had promissed the 769s would be in service this summer has got to count for something, and if the ROSCO fails to deliver the trains when expected that is not the fault of the TOCs or Welsh Government.

Disastrous mismanagement by first Welsh Govt, and now TfW. But I'm sure ATW, DfT and Porterbrook will be blamed somehow. It will be anyone's fault but Welsh Govt's.
I don't think anyone, except perhaps ATW, should come out of this with a clean face. The DfT should be blamed for letting a no-growth franchise with an end date so close to the PRM deadline, the Welsh Government should be blamed for not stepping in sooner to get additional trains ordered ahead of reletting the franchise and, if the 769s don't appear this summer as announced, Porterbrook (or their supplier) should be blamed for that.

Pacers running services usually operated by 150s will anoy passengers
Are the ValleyLines continuously welded rail? If they are, then it might not be too much of a problem provided enough additional Pacers can be found. ATW's Pacers and 150s are equally awful in most respects, with the main benift of the 150s being that they are bigger and hence contain more seats. A pair of Pacers replacing a single 150 therefore could be considered an improvement.
 
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