RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[Bletchleyite]

The RMT under Cash has won DOO disputes in Scotland, GWR and successfully scared the W.A.G from even considering any DOO so he’s probably not seen so far anyway as a complete failure by the membership

Railway DOO maybe...but I'd bet that if they go for light rail for the Valleys (and this may well be one reason why they are looking likely to go that way) it will not carry a second safety-trained member of staff, even if they do decide to go for a conductor purely for the collection of revenue, and doors will certainly be the driver's job in that case.

Not only that but I'd bet the staff will be paid less than mainline railway staff.

 

[northwichcat]

Railway DOO maybe...but I'd bet that if they go for light rail for the Valleys (and this may well be one reason why they are looking likely to go that way) it will not carry a second safety-trained member of staff, even if they do decide to go for a conductor purely for the collection of revenue, and doors will certainly be the driver's job in that case.

Indeed. The RMT's agreement with WG doesn't include possible light rail DOO on the Welsh Valleys - the place the WG are most likely to consider DOO.

 

[Carlisle]

Indeed. The RMT's agreement with WG doesn't include possible light rail DOO on the Welsh Valleys - the place the WG are most likely to consider DOO.

Oh ok, so bar a major change of leadership/policy at the RMT any future attempt at replacing heavy rail with trams where guards aren’t closing the doors will definitely trigger a strike ballot at some stage in the future .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh ok, so bar a major change of leadership/policy at the RMT any future attempt at replacing heavy rail with trams where guards aren’t closing the doors will definitely trigger a strike ballot at some stage in the future .

...which will drive more such conversions.

 

[Robertj21a]

Oh ok, so bar a major change of leadership/policy at the RMT any future attempt at replacing heavy rail with trams where guards aren’t closing the doors will definitely trigger a strike ballot at some stage in the future .

I just have to be amused at the thought of brand new trams being introduced - complete with a RMT guard to open/shut the doors!. The world has gone bonkers.

 

[northwichcat]

Oh ok, so bar a major change of leadership/policy at the RMT any future attempt at replacing heavy rail with trams where guards aren’t closing the doors will definitely trigger a strike ballot at some stage in the future .

Do you remember strikes when the Altrincham, Bury and Oldham lines were converted to Metrolink running as DOO? There's a reason you can't - the conversion was done in a way which prevented any industrial action from being legal. BR or Northern crews couldn't strike against Metrolink because Metrolink wasn't their employer - their employer was BR or Northern who weren't introducing trams or DOO. No reason why a Valley Lines light rail system would be done any differently, despite all the RMT gloating about having an agreement in Wales.

 

[WatcherZero]

Really good editorial on DOO in the north on the last page of February issue of Modern Rail reflecting on how the Guards initially were never passenger facing but were given the faux conductor role when Brake Cars became obsolete but the failure of the old guard to engage with the role has made the union claim of passenger service a hard sell.

 

[B&I]

...which will drive more such conversions.

The words 'tail', 'dog' and 'wagging' spring to mind.

 

[PR1Berske]

Oh ok, so bar a major change of leadership/policy at the RMT any future attempt at replacing heavy rail with trams where guards aren’t closing the doors will definitely trigger a strike ballot at some stage in the future .

"And what do you do?"
"I open the doors for TramCymru"
"But the doors open automatically"
"I am paid to open the doors for TramCymru"
"...but..."
"I AM PAID...."

 

[northwichcat]

I just have to be amused at the thought of brand new trams being introduced - complete with a RMT guard to open/shut the doors!. The world has gone bonkers.

The reason the tram-train trial is being undertaken by Stagecoach Supertram not Northern (as originally proposed) is because the RMT made a fuss about Northern operating services without guards. All the RMT succeeded in doing is ensuring National Rail tickets for Rotherham aren't accepted on the tram-train.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

"And what do you do?"
"I open the doors for TramCymru"
"But the doors open automatically"
"I am paid to open the doors for TramCymru"
"...but..."
"I AM PAID...."

As opposed to I am unemployed and paid benefits ?

 

[Tomnick]

The doors on trams open automatically?

Incidentally:

At about 13:34 hrs on Friday 15 December 2017, an empty pushchair became trapped in the doors of a tram at Radford Road tram stop and was then dragged on the outside of the tram until the next tram stop. Nobody was injured during the incident.

The tram was operated by Nottingham Express Transit and was travelling from Hucknall to Toton Lane. After it arrived at Radford Road tram stop, several people, including a ticket inspector escorting a passenger, got off the tram. Shortly afterwards, another passenger, travelling with the escorted passenger and carrying a child, moved a pushchair out of the tram. As she was doing this, the tram doors began to close. When the doors reached the fully closed position, the pushchair was outside with its plastic weather guard trapped in the doors, and the passenger and child were still inside the tram. The tram then moved off. The pushchair remained attached to the tram until the next stop, Hyson Green Market, where the tram driver first became aware of it. The passenger operated a passenger-to-driver communication device while the tram was travelling between the two stops but no conversation with the driver took place.

Our investigation into the accident will determine the sequence of events. It will also include consideration of:

• the actions of the staff involved
• the process for checking whether it is safe for a tram to depart from Radford Road tram stop, including the equipment provided to assist the driver in this task
• the door control and obstacle detection system
• the passenger-to-driver communication system and associated procedures
• any underlying management factors

Our investigation is independent of any investigation by the railway industry, or by the industry’s regulator, the Office of Rail and Road.

We will publish our findings, including any recommendations to improve safety, at the conclusion of our investigation. This report will be available on our website.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pushchair-trapped-in-tram-doors-and-dragged-nottingham

Just another one to add to the list.

 

[Goldfish62]

The doors on trams open automatically?

Incidentally:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pushchair-trapped-in-tram-doors-and-dragged-nottingham

Just another one to add to the list.

No it's not. It's a tram, not a train. More in common with a bus than a train.

 

[Tomnick]

No it's not. It's a tram, not a train. More in common with a bus than a train.

I largely agree. Incidents like this do show that the act of “opening the doors” (why never “closing the doors”?!) isn’t as trivial a task as some like to portray it as, though, and it’s one area where the operation of a tram has more in common with a train than a bus does.

 

[Carlisle]

I largely agree. Incidents like this do show that the act of “opening the doors” (why never “closing the doors”?!) isn’t as trivial a task as some like to portray it as, though, and it’s one area where the operation of a tram has more in common with a train than a bus does.

I can’t think of any modern tram systems I’ve been on where conductors still operate the doors but I’m sure they probably do exist somewhere in the world

 

[Bletchleyite]

The doors on trams open automatically?

Incidentally:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pushchair-trapped-in-tram-doors-and-dragged-nottingham

Just another one to add to the list.

It has also happened on guarded trains.

 

[Carlisle]

Do you remember strikes when the Altrincham, Bury and Oldham lines were converted to Metrolink running as DOO? There's a reason you can't - the conversion was done in a way which prevented any industrial action from being legal. BR or Northern crews couldn't strike against Metrolink because Metrolink wasn't their employer - their employer was BR or Northern who weren't introducing trams or DOO. No reason why a Valley Lines light rail system would be done any differently, despite all the RMT gloating about having an agreement in Wales.

it’s a bit concerning that very senior management clearly knew the minutiae of preventing problems in that era 26!years or more ago but can’t really offer anything meaningful to those facing the current disputes, clearly a major failure somewhere

 

[northwichcat]

it’s a bit concerning that very senior management clearly knew the minutiae of preventing problems in that era 26!years or more ago but can’t really offer anything meaningful to those facing the current disputes, clearly a major failure somewhere

The same idea wouldn't work on Merseyrail and while a new DCO only TOC could be set up called Northern Connect with drivers from Northern getting TUPE it would be much worse for guards than the current plan as there wouldn't be the option of guards retaining continuous employment and their current grade even if they are just doing the work of a CSA.

 

[northwichcat]

It has also happened on guarded trains.

Indeed. TPE at Newcastle was a far worse incident than the one linked to.

 

[Tomnick]

It has also happened on guarded trains.

Correct. No method of working is ever going to be 100% safe, after all. There have been far more involving DOO trains (even though there are fewer DOO trains!), though.

Indeed. TPE at Newcastle was a far worse incident than the one linked to.

Yes (but only because it happened that the pushchair was empty). Equally, there have been others on DOO trains that have been worse still. The Newcastle one's interesting, though, because it involved a train with a guard but one which would previously had platform staff assisting with the dispatch process because of the curvature of the platform and the busy nature of the station - something else which was dispensed with in the name of cost-cutting (but no cost saving to the industry as a whole?) seemingly without a proper assessment of the risks involved.

 

[northwichcat]

The Newcastle one's interesting, though, because it involved a train with a guard but one which would previously had platform staff assisting with the dispatch process because of the curvature of the platform and the busy nature of the station - something else which was dispensed with in the name of cost-cutting (but no cost saving to the industry as a whole?) seemingly without a proper assessment of the risks involved.

If it's a choice of guards or platform staff, there's potential incidents which platform staff can prevent which guards can't but then the platform staff can't deal with an on board incident between stations.

 

[Tomnick]

If it's a choice of guards or platform staff, there's potential incidents which platform staff can prevent which guards can't but then the platform staff can't deal with an on board incident between stations.

...which seems to be a pretty solid argument for keeping a safety-critical presence on trains, certainly the more rural routes now being considered for DOO, and supporting them with (safety-critical) platform staff at busier stations or where there's a particular risk. The DfT want to be rid of both.

 

[northwichcat]

...which seems to be a pretty solid argument for keeping a safety-critical presence on trains, certainly the more rural routes now being considered for DOO, and supporting them with (safety-critical) platform staff at busier stations or where there's a particular risk. The DfT want to be rid of both.

I think the most important thing is what level of staffing will there be and what level of training and refreshers staff will get, opposed to will there be a guard who will close the doors at every station. There was an incident at Manchester Piccadilly platform 13 or 14 where a wheelchair passenger got injured because a guard didn't perform the procedure of off loading correctly, if someone's not trained properly or forgets what to do then it's a safety issue whether they are a guard or contracted security personnel.

 

[urbophile]

I largely agree. Incidents like this do show that the act of “opening the doors” (why never “closing the doors”?!) isn’t as trivial a task as some like to portray it as, though, and it’s one area where the operation of a tram has more in common with a train than a bus does.

Exactly. On most buses there is only one door and that adjacent to the driver. London buses and 'bendy' buses are a bit different I admit. But in this respect trams (especially those stopping at 'station platforms' like Metrolink, have more in common with trains.

 

[Tomnick]

I think the most important thing is what level of staffing will there be and what level of training and refreshers staff will get, opposed to will there be a guard who will close the doors at every station. There was an incident at Manchester Piccadilly platform 13 or 14 where a wheelchair passenger got injured because a guard didn't perform the procedure of off loading correctly, if someone's not trained properly or forgets what to do then it's a safety issue whether they are a guard or contracted security personnel.

I don't really disagree, but unfortunately the DfT seem dead set on serious destaffing regardless of the consequences. Opening and closing doors is just a distraction - an important part of the role, but they'd have you think that that's all the role and the dispute is about. Take that away, take away the absolute requirement for a second member of staff on each train, and suddenly you'll find that we're a big step closer to just not having any level of staffing (except for the driver) for the most part.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't really disagree, but unfortunately the DfT seem dead set on serious destaffing regardless of the consequences. Opening and closing doors is just a distraction - an important part of the role, but they'd have you think that that's all the role and the dispute is about. Take that away, take away the absolute requirement for a second member of staff on each train, and suddenly you'll find that we're a big step closer to just not having any level of staffing (except for the driver) for the most part.

I'm not sure why this concern is so great, as it's only really the tramways that run with near enough no staff other than drivers and the odd ticket squad. Even the DOO railways have staff about on stations and sometimes on board.

 

[northwichcat]

Exactly. On most buses there is only one door and that adjacent to the driver. London buses and 'bendy' buses are a bit different I admit. But in this respect trams (especially those stopping at 'station platforms' like Metrolink, have more in common with trains.

I'm sure I've been on buses in other countries which have 3 sets of doors, just like a Pacer train.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm sure I've been on buses in other countries which have 3 sets of doors, just like a Pacer train.

Even 4 sets of doors on some - and don't forget those double-articulated buses and trolleybuses around (with numerous doors) too.

 

[gavin]

Latest strike called for Saturday 3rd March the day Liverpool are at home to Newcastle the strike coincides with northern rail

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Latest strike called for Saturday 3rd March the day Liverpool are at home to Newcastle the strike coincides with northern rail

I suppose that may be a way to get the blue half of the city on the union's side.

But might it just possibly alienate the other half?