Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[SpacePhoenix]

There are numerous other articles on the web making reference to this classification. I’m fully aware of how Wikipedia should be used.

Not seen any of them articles reference an official statement from SWR, Bombardier, or a ROSCO so it's still speculation that the class number will be 701

 

[swt_passenger]

I have a feeling infobleep was referring to the peak fast Woking stoppers (an oxymoron I know) which are currently class 450 operated and I would say that they will continue to be 450s. Unless I've calculated it wrong, the new 701s don't really provide any increase in the number of carriages over all of the current stock that they're replacing with significantly fewer actual units compared to the number of units being replaced.

I think you have to work on vehicle numbers rather than unit numbers. A 10 car 701 can replace 3 units, ie a 455/455/456 set.
However I think you also still have to bear in mind that the 701 numbers allow for the replacement of all the 707s that are yet to be introduced. The 707s may have already allowed for the trains in question to be replaced with something different under SWTs existing plans, I don't think the final intended SWT train plan has ever been confirmed, though it is likely to form a transitional stage towards SWR's eventual steady state..

 

[TEW]

The 707s don’t have toilets or plug sockets and are also underpowered. They were ordered by SWT on the cheap. The 701s will be much better.

The 707s do have plug sockets, and I am not at all convinced that they are underpowered in practice. I don't think it is right to say they were ordered 'on the cheap', in fact their high cost is a factor that counted against them and probably part of the reason SWR are ditching them.

 

[Monty]

The 707s don’t have toilets or plug sockets and are also underpowered. They were ordered by SWT on the cheap. The 701s will be much better.

Wibble, the units DO have plug sockets and have the capability for toilets to be installed relatively quickly. The main reason the 707s came without is because we struggle to empty and tank the units we have already. They are not underpowered either, they have no trouble keeping to current diagrams, quicker off the mark than a 450 and during testing they had no trouble reaching 100mph on the mainline.

 

[swt_passenger]

Wibble, the units DO have plug sockets and have the capability for toilets to be installed relatively quickly. The main reason the 707s came without is because we struggle to empty and tank the units we have already. They are not underpowered either, they have no trouble keeping to current diagrams, quicker off the mark than a 450 and during testing they had no trouble reaching 100mph on the mainline.

I saw a discussion of this somewhere else which surmised that they are only underpowered when compared with 700s because the 700s are so well "overpowered". As they are much lighter units than Desiro UK they should not need so much power anyway- and many of the earlier types such as 450s don't use all of their installed power due to infrastructure limits.

As you point out, if they can keep to the required timings on the services they operate, then they must be at least adequately powered.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

It is purely subjective,but when I have travelled on 707s they do seem to have better acceleration leaving stations than the other stock.

 

[WWTownEnth]

Does anyone know when the first unit is due for completion?

 

[hwl]

Does anyone know when the first unit is due for completion?

Should follow on from the after the end of the LO 710 units so about 9-10 months that way.

 

[Malcolmffc]

Should follow on from the after the end of the LO 710 units so about 9-10 months that way.

Do we know if they will focus on replacing a particular stock type (eg the 458s) first or will they be spread across all suburban services when they are first introduced?

 

[Bigfoot]

Do we know if they will focus on replacing a particular stock type (eg the 458s) first or will they be spread across all suburban services when they are first introduced?

It is understood that it will be 707s that go first as their leasing cost is the highest.

 

[MatthewRead]

It is understood that it will be 707s that go first as their leasing cost is the highest.

When will that be may I ask because one of my managers said they might stay on some of the metro services i.e Hampton Court.

 

[Domh245]

Interestingly, the franchise agreement refers to these units as 705s and 711s for the 5 car and 10 car units respectively. It also details seating capacity - 269 for the 5 cars, 546 for the 10 cars.

 

[Domh245]

Some other interesting tidbits about these units:

geared for 100 mph operation;
fitted with at least one two hundred and thirty (230) volt power socket and one twelve (12) Watt USB Port per pair of seats for use by passengers;
fitted with commissioned and operational media servers;
fitted with corridor connection gangways of a minimum width of at least 1,160mm and central saloon gangways of a minimum width of at least 750mm;
fitted with “bio-reactor” toilets that only need their effluent tanks emptying every forty five (45) days; (all around pg 339)

The first 2x 10 car units should be accepted into use by 15/09/2019, the last 6x 5 car units by 8/12/2020 (pg 434)

I think these may be the first of Grayling's Alternative fuel trains!

 

[TEW]

It is understood that it will be 707s that go first as their leasing cost is the highest.

The Franchise Agreement released today confirms that is the plan. 707s Off Lease December 2019, 458/5s April 2020 and 455/456s December 2020. Subject to change based on how Aventra delivery is going.

 

[Agent_Squash]

It's actually ridiculous that the newer trains are being replaced first - I’m sure many people would be annoyed if they were on a 40 year old 455 instead of a 3 year old 707.

 

[Uzair]

It's actually ridiculous that the newer trains are being replaced first - I’m sure many people would be annoyed if they were on a 40 year old 455 instead of a 3 year old 707.

Agreed but remember that the reason is due to the high leasing costs.

 

[urpert]

The Franchise Agreement released today confirms that is the plan. 707s Off Lease December 2019, 458/5s April 2020 and 455/456s December 2020. Subject to change based on how Aventra delivery is going.

Just in time to replace some Networkers

 

[43096]

Agreed but remember that the reason is due to the high leasing costs.

Off-leasing the smaller fleets (707 and 458) first also makes diagramming easier as there are fewer incompatible trains types to take into account.

 

[spark001uk]

Wibble, the units DO have plug sockets and have the capability for toilets to be installed relatively quickly. The main reason the 707s came without is because we struggle to empty and tank the units we have already. They are not underpowered either, they have no trouble keeping to current diagrams, quicker off the mark than a 450 and during testing they had no trouble reaching 100mph on the mainline.

I heard from one of the on-board suits during testing that the 707s as configured couldn't have toilets as they're almost on max axle weight, and I imagine the toilets and tank-fulls of b&m would outweigh the seats they displace.

 

[Domh245]

That would be very odd if that were the case. After all, the 700s manage with toilets in their trailer cars, so I fail to see why the 707s couldn't adopt an identical solution, unless the red paint weighs more? It's off topic for this thread though

 

[pompeyfan]

In a Twitter exchange the new units were referred to as 705s and 712s by someone on the SWR twitter team if I remember correctly. I think 701 might just be rumours.

 

[D365]

Strange, as I’ve definitely seen Class 701 within this side of the business.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

A last minute change of class number wouldn't be without precedent; a number of class 455s were delivered with stickers inside them classing them by their original designation of class 510, so the change from 510 to 455 must have been made very late in the day.

It therefore would not be unexpected if the 701, 705, 712 or whatever might not be thus.

 

[pompeyfan]

I’ve managed to find the tweet, I’ve included a link but I’ll also upload a picture of the tweet.

https://twitter.com/sw_help/status/959758459515428864

On the 2nd part of the tweet (I’ve not included this) it’s signed off by ^DB, who I believe is relatively high up and also offers really decent replies when he has to engage, this leads me to believe he knows what he’s talking about.

 

[swt_passenger]

On the 2nd part of the tweet (I’ve not included this) it’s signed off by ^DB, who I believe is relatively high up and also offers really decent replies when he has to engage, this leads me to believe he knows what he’s talking about.

What does he mean when he refers to 707 replacing 444?

Earlier tweets refer to SWR replacing 707s with 442s. I think the whole discussion is bonkers.

 

[TEW]

I’ve managed to find the tweet, I’ve included a link but I’ll also upload a picture of the tweet.

https://twitter.com/sw_help/status/959758459515428864

On the 2nd part of the tweet (I’ve not included this) it’s signed off by ^DB, who I believe is relatively high up and also offers really decent replies when he has to engage, this leads me to believe he knows what he’s talking about.

The seating capacities quoted are exactly the same as those contained within the franchise agreement. The franchise agreement refers to Class 705 for the 5 cars and Class 711 for the 10 cars. 711, not 712 as on Twitter.

 

[samuelmorris]

The latter could just simply be a typo, not that 711 as a class number makes any more sense...

 

[dp21]

Anyone know why they've chosen to designate a different class for the 5 and 10s as supposed to subclasses as on GA?

 

[swt_passenger]

Anyone know why they've chosen to designate a different class for the 5 and 10s as supposed to subclasses as on GA?

Yes, another odd aspect. There isn't much of a precedent for different lengths of the same basic unit getting separate class numbers (ie first 3 digits).
(Although I had it from an SWT fleet engineer that this is exactly why SWT renumbered a few 3 car 158s as 159/1s a few years back...)

 

[samuelmorris]

314 and 315 come to mind, though I'm sure there are others. I think the only known fact about the logic to tops class numbering is that there is no logic whatsoever.