Route knowledge retention.

[PeterHilling]

I wanted to get an idea from other drivers what their TOCs have set down as the standard for route knowledge retention in terms of time elapsed since you last drove a route. My particular concern is this.

I drive a route which appears 10 times in a 36 week roster. That in itself is no real cause for concern although not ideal. The issue is that on one of the 10 jobs you take a train off a foreign depot in the morning and on another one of the 10 jobs you put on back onto the same foreign depot in the evening.

So with annual leave it is quite possible to miss either entering or exiting the depot in a 36 week period or even missing both. Therefore it could be well over 6 months in either case. So, if I only take a train off that foreign depot in 36 weeks am I still competent to put a train on the depot? Furthermore, if I don't go onto that depot, either on or off am I still competent?

 

[Atishyou]

Only you can say whether you are 'competent' or whether you feel you meet your employer's standards for retention of route knowledge.

If you go on to the foreign depot and nothing has changed, why would you no longer be comfortable doing it? I can see a big difference if you've never been since you learnt it, things have changed since you last went, or you went a while ago but it's still the same.

It sounds better than that of a few cowboy operators who let their drivers go round with maps on their knee.

 

[jingsmonty]

I wanted to get an idea from other drivers what their TOCs have set down as the standard for route knowledge retention in terms of time elapsed since you last drove a route. My particular concern is this.

I drive a route which appears 10 times in a 36 week roster. That in itself is no real cause for concern although not ideal. The issue is that on one of the 10 jobs you take a train off a foreign depot in the morning and on another one of the 10 jobs you put on back onto the same foreign depot in the evening.

So with annual leave it is quite possible to miss either entering or exiting the depot in a 36 week period or even missing both. Therefore it could be well over 6 months in either case. So, if I only take a train off that foreign depot in 36 weeks am I still competent to put a train on the depot? Furthermore, if I don't go onto that depot, either on or off am I still competent?

I, personally, wouldn't drive a route if I hadn't been over it for 6 months, even if I was confident that I knew it. It's our responsibility to ask for a refresher for that route.

We have a similar issue at my depot - we have a route that we only do once every 6 weeks or so - there are drivers who have gone 'out of competence' with annual leave/swaps/lieudays, etc. Got to the stage that all swaps/lieudays involving this job had to be approved by a DTM!

If we had some sort of an incident & it transpired that we were 'out of competence', we wouldn't have a leg to stand on ...

 

[thelongestroad]

I'm a conductor, not a driver.. but the same theory applies, so my solution here would be to put in for route refreshes. I asked for a route refresh for a route which we use for diversions during engineering works/disruption etc, and my request was declined because I had refreshed it in the last 2 years.

A week later they asked me to work over it in service and I said no, because I didn't feel it was safe! They quickly got my route refresh then.

You can be competent on paper but have patchy route knowledge in reality.

 

[driver9000]

If you don't know, don't go. Only you can say if you're confident with your knowledge of a certain route or yard. What does your employers route knowledge standards say regarding maintaining competence? That will be the overriding judgement on timescales. For my company it's 6 months for a non complex route or location where we have no booked work.

It comes across that you have concerns about your knowledge of this depot so my advice is to put a route refresh in. They can't stop you and they have to give you the day. Better that than going in and having an incident that leaves you wide open for grief.

 

[trentside]

I concur with the advice to put in for a refresh if you don’t feel comfortable working into or out of the depot. Better to be sure than have an incident.

I’d also advise speaking to your union reps to get an idea of the correct processes. You’ve got good advice here but your reps will have a better idea of specific company processes.

 

[jingsmonty]

I concur with the advice to put in for a refresh if you don’t feel comfortable working into or out of the depot. Better to be sure than have an incident.

I’d also advise speaking to your union reps to get an idea of the correct processes. You’ve got good advice here but your reps will have a better idea of specific company processes.

Spot on advice there...that's what I would do in your situation too. Better safe than sorry

 

[Eccles1983]

Its quite simple really.

Put in a route request, if it doesnt get actioned then take the route off your card.

Its your card, and ultimately your safety and career on the line if it goes wrong.

 

[jingsmonty]

Its quite simple really.

Put in a route request, if it doesnt get actioned then take the route off your card.

Its your card, and ultimately your safety and career on the line if it goes wrong.

Completely - no matter what pressure your TCS puts on you to do the job, don't! Tbey won't be there if anything goes wrong. Or speak to your DTM - as others have said, put in a route refresher request.

 

[Bookd]

As an outsider I am genuinely puzzled about rare route knowledge.
I appreciate that on a running line the crew should have route knowledge, but if you are diverted into an unusual platform or siding that you have never been to before (or rarely), moving very slowly and on clear signals where is the risk?
There must be situations where odd sidings that could be useful are so rarely needed that very few if any drivers have used them - do they become unusable by default?
On the other hand if a new platform, or even new line, is opened as happens occasionally then by definition no one has driven it before; if everyone refuses because they do not have route knowledge how can anything develop?
I may have asked something similar before in which case I apologise.

 

[Eccles1983]

You should sign all sidings and platforms on your route - that doesnt mean you should of been in the sidings, just know how to get in and out and the method of working.

If it is a simple change, then a brief will be issued.

If it is a complete change including signals you should be given a day to be watch a video, be route conducted or a route train over it.

If its gone completely wrong then the signaller can talk you through the move - however this is only on routes you sign. He shouldnt try talk you through a part of line you dont sign as this will cause issues.

 

[waynemorrell]

Re route learning, from what I understand, if train crew haven’t “signed” a route / traction they cannot work on it, if delays happen because of engineering work, diversions ect then so be it.

I believe such a thing happened a month or to ago on the Caledonian Sleeper around Sterling? they had to source another driver.

But what are these “cards” that are often referred to? are these the things crew “sign?”, often wondered.

 

[rebmcr]

moving very slowly and on clear signals where is the risk?

With this specific example: the risk of missing a signal at Danger because you're not expecting it to be there (perhaps it has poor sighting).

 

[BestWestern]

Only you can say whether you are 'competent' or whether you feel you meet your employer's standards for retention of route knowledge.

If you go on to the foreign depot and nothing has changed, why would you no longer be comfortable doing it?

Because driving a train requires a huge amount of route knowledge retention, and somewhere that you rarely go will be shuffled right to the bottom of the pack by your memory, very possibly to the extent that your memory of that route is not completely clear. It's no good only remembering something when it's too late...

As for who can say if somebody is competent, most operators should have a set time period after which competency over a route will lapse by default. Of course, crew are free to request a refresher at any time they feel it is needed, but at a certain point it should technically become mandatory.

 

[InOban]

As numpties like me are always being reminded, all road vehicles are driven, or are meant to be, so that they can be stopped within a distance which the driver can see, but trains not only take much longer to stop, they are also driven in the dark. That's why drivers need route knowledge. Nevertheless, since the advent of driver aids (AWS, TPWS, cab radios etc.) I have always thought that they should be able to drive at Dead Slow into, say, a depot with which they are less familiar. They would need to be talked in by Control, just as a harbour master might do to a ship. Obviously they couldn't do this anywhere they would delay trains behind them.

 

[ComUtoR]

There is always the problem of liability, especially when something goes wrong.

 

[Highlandspring]

They would need to be talked in by Control, just as a harbour master might do to a ship.

There is no requirement for Controllers to have anything like a driver's level of route knowledge (it's also not how pilotage for ships works, but never mind). That remark really shows how far removed most railway enthusiasts are from the reality of day to day railway operations.

 

[Eccles1983]

Re route learning, from what I understand, if train crew haven’t “signed” a route / traction they cannot work on it, if delays happen because of engineering work, diversions ect then so be it.

I believe such a thing happened a month or to ago on the Caledonian Sleeper around Sterling? they had to source another driver.

But what are these “cards” that are often referred to? are these the things crew “sign?”, often wondered.

Its a route card. Simply your routes and traction placed on paper to say what and where you can drive it.

You sign your name next to it when you learn it.

I imagine in the old days the office had a card system with these details on. Nowadays they can check on computer but you still need to physically sign literally the route.

 

[InOban]

I'm curious. Doesn't control have a track diagram with the position of the train on it?

The amount of time spent on route learning and refreshment must be a substantial cost. The biggest threat to the railway is the extraordinary cost of its current rules, regs and T& C. The industry must find a way in which every activity adds real value.

 

[Tomnick]

They would need to be talked in by Control, just as a harbour master might do to a ship.

Well, that's exactly what happens, apart from "Control" (who don't have anything like the depth of route knowledge required) is replaced by a driver who signs the route (who does), and sitting in the cab rather than presumably watching from a distance. Obviously that relies on a suitable driver being available, and I guess that what you're getting at is someone like a shunter or yard supervisor (who will have a very detailed knowledge of the place, just not from a driver's point of view) conducting rather than another driver, within the confines of the yard only - an interesting thought?

 

[Tomnick]

I'm curious. Doesn't control have a track diagram with the position of the train on it?

The amount of time spent on route learning and refreshment must be a substantial cost. The biggest threat to the railway is the extraordinary cost of its current rules, regs and T& C. The industry must find a way in which every activity adds real value.

First bit - usually, no, and even if it does (if there's some signalling, and a yard panel controlling it), it isn't really precise enough for that sort of thing - then you have the risk of the driver not understanding which signal applies to the move and that sort of thing. Both depots that I've driven in (one busy and big, one busy and not so big with some complex moves as a result) have hand points and stop boards with the positions of trains recorded on a large whiteboard supported by various CCTV cameras.

Second part - route learning or refreshing even a large depot isn't going to be more than a day, which is nothing compared to the time taken to learn a long, complex route out in the big wide world.

 

[ComUtoR]

Good to see you again Tom. Hows it going out there ?

I've been talked past a few shunts by the Signaler before and even talked through a wrong direction move. From my perspective they are more there to guide over the more technical parts and prompt me about existence and location of the less used dummies, and when clear of the points etc. I know everything is there, just need a little prompt to remember it. It goes without saying that this relationship between Driver/Signaler is much more technical and both have overlapping knowledge of whats required.

 

[Highlandspring]

I'm curious. Doesn't control have a track diagram with the position of the train on it?

Here is a "Controller's eye view" of the network (note the various missing shunt signals) -

 

[Tomnick]

Plodding steadily on ta! Hope all's well with you.

Whenever (as a signalman) I've helped a driver with the finer details of his route knowledge, it's just been a few prompts really to confirm his understanding of a move that he knows the details of in theory but has never done in practice. That ties in nicely to the earlier query about little-used platforms and crossovers - if you sign a route, you sign every part of that route. It'd obviously be impossible to maintain regular practical experience of a move over a crossover that's very rarely used, but you still have to know the speed over it, the indications that you need to go over it and that sort of thing.

I'm reminded of various stories of (mainly) freight drivers who've decided that they suddenly "don't sign" the loop that they're being put into to let a following train pass. Even better when they think the signalman's given in, pulls off for the main (just a single yellow though) and puts the following train through the loop and straight out in front of them!

 

[waynemorrell]

There is no requirement for Controllers to have anything like a driver's level of route knowledge (it's also not how pilotage for ships works, but never mind). That remark really shows how far removed most railway enthusiasts are from the reality of day to day railway operations.

True but as we are in a forum of both enthusiasts and staff is it a problem ?

If you want to use a staff only forum there are plenty off yahoo groups ect, so respectively what’s the problem ?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

True but as we are in a forum of both enthusiasts and staff is it a problem ?

If you want to use a staff only forum there are plenty off yahoo groups ect, so respectively what’s the problem ?

Occasionally it can be a source of irritation. Staff are generally quite happy to answer questions about operational details which are not obvious to a lay-person. But every now and again there comes a further response suggesting that staff have it all wrong...

 

[Highlandspring]

True but as we are in a forum of both enthusiasts and staff is it a problem ?

If you want to use a staff only forum there are plenty off yahoo groups ect, so respectively what’s the problem ?

I was just pointing out a response from a lay-person that clearly demonstrates no knowledge of how the railway actually works in practice. "Control" is not the omnipotent entity that many would believe.

 

[ComUtoR]

I like it when 'control' tell me to leave a unit on a running line.

 

[Highlandspring]

Well this controller wouldn't tell you to do that as trains stabled on running lines are a particular bête noire of his but some of his colleagues aren't so conscientious...

 

[CyrusWuff]

I like it when 'control' tell me to leave a unit on a running line.

Is this request followed by a response beginning, "For the benefit of this recorded line, you want me to..." and a description of precisely how it'll obliterate the service?

Control's response being, "I'll call you back", with the unspoken addition, "Once I've worked out how to did myself out of this hole."