ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Highland37]

Do you mean conditions as they are right now? If so, this is normal weather and not severe.

 

[Darandio]

It might be normal conditions for Norway but not in January in Scotland.

Several inches of snow isn't normal in the Highlands in January?

 

[mcmad]

Sustained snowfall is not normal in Scotland, and hasn't been for a long while. There's the odd day here and there nothing more. To suggest that the conditions last week were 'normal' is frankly ridiculous.

 

[Highland37]

It really isn't ridiculous. I don't know where you live but here in Inverness and to anyone travelling up and down the A9, this weather is not severe or unusual.

There is at most, 18 inches of snow lying, where it hasn't drifted, and to the railway's credit, there haven't been many problems at all. I was lucky I wasn't stuck on the A9 last night with all the numpties without winter tyres.

There is more snow on the Airdrie-Bathgate line than there is on the HML right now. I was on both yesterday.

 

[BRX]

Sustained snowfall is not normal in Scotland, and hasn't been for a long while. There's the odd day here and there nothing more. To suggest that the conditions last week were 'normal' is frankly ridiculous.

A foot or two lying for several days somewhere like Dalwhinnie is hardly abnormal winter weather.

 

[Altnabreac]

The snow this weekend was not normal weather for Scotland. Snow is to be expected in that part of the world but heavy, sustained snowfall will cause a problem anywhere and will require either a short term closure of the road while it is cleared or drivers who are equipped for the conditions.

In Norway people would have winter tyres, studded tyres, snow chains etc to allow them to travel in similar conditions. In Scotland studded tyres and snow chains will rarely be used by most motorists and even winter tyres will only be used by a small minority.

I've travelled in Norway in winter and they are very good at keeping things running but when the heavy snow sets in, there can be delays of hours and days until routes are cleared even there.

For another example see Switzerland :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42773818

Sustained snowfall above a usual expected level simply can't always be dealt with immediately.

 

[Highland37]

Whilst I respect your knowledge on railway matters, I am going to say you are wrong on weather matters.

I live and work in the Highlands and travel all over the area, as well as the rest of Scotland, each week. My job requires it. I also have considerable experience in mountain sports both in Scotland and abroad and have many years of experiencing winters here and elsewhere. I have run fleets of vehicles here and elsewhere.

This is normal weather. It really is. Maybe it is not normal for the people who are experiencing it but it is completely normal for this time of year in these parts of the world.

Unfortunately most drivers are not equipped for the conditions though as they don't have winter tyres. This is the single biggest thing anyone can do to avoid becoming stuck.

In trying to show that other areas have issues too (Zermatt), you have demonstrated that *abnormal* conditions do cause issues. Zermatt and much of the western Alps is experiencing abnormal conditions. These are well documented and were studied in particular after the large, fatal events in Galtur and Le Tour some years ago.

 

[Altnabreac]

Whilst I respect your knowledge on railway matters, I am going to say you are wrong on weather matters.

I live and work in the Highlands and travel all over the area, as well as the rest of Scotland, each week. My job requires it. I also have considerable experience in mountain sports both in Scotland and abroad and have many years of experiencing winters here and elsewhere. I have run fleets of vehicles here and elsewhere.

This is normal weather. It really is. Maybe it is not normal for the people who are experiencing it but it is completely normal for this time of year in these parts of the world.

Unfortunately most drivers are not equipped for the conditions though as they don't have winter tyres. This is the single biggest thing anyone can do to avoid becoming stuck.

In trying to show that other areas have issues too (Zermatt), you have demonstrated that *abnormal* conditions do cause issues. Zermatt and much of the western Alps is experiencing abnormal conditions. These are well documented and were studied in particular after the large, fatal events in Galtur and Le Tour some years ago.

Well I'm afraid that the fact most vehicles were not equipped for it shows that the perception is that equipment was not required so regardless of what you think is normal, unless drivers think that is normal then they won't prepare for it.

Roads were closed for a few hours during the worst of the weather. That is perfectly normal and the same as occurs in Norway and elsewhere.

No need to pretend we are uniquely unable to cope with the conditions.

 

[Highland37]

Again I disagree. I think it's more that they think they can get away with it, that winter tyres don't make a huge difference and that the roads should be black and snow free in the middle of the winter. Your theory relies on on people taking action to deal with things when they suspect they might happen. That is not always the case. Many people argue that winter tyres don't make much of a difference which is clearly nonsense but don't think they want to believe that they do.

Yes roads being closed is normal but I think it's reasonable to say that when drivers are less prepared, the police are more likely to close it. Norway would grind to a halt if they adopted the same attitude as the UK.

Back to HSTs, I saw two GWR coaches in the Inverness shed last night.

 

[InOban]

I was born in Inverness and remember well what winter used to be like 60 years ago. But now we can go several winters without the sort of weather we have had this past few weeks. People have no opportunity to develop the skills needed to cope with it.

 

[swaldman]

I was born in Inverness and remember well what winter used to be like 60 years ago. But now we can go several winters without the sort of weather we have had this past few weeks. People have no opportunity to develop the skills needed to cope with it.

https://xkcd.com/1321/

 

[brel york]

I bet Norway have a train to glide over mud slides

 

[mcmad]

But Norway and similar countries get predictable snowfall at the same time every year. Here we get odd days, at worst a week at a time, sometime from December to May.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But Norway and similar countries get predictable snowfall at the same time every year. Here we get odd days, at worst a week at a time, sometime from December to May.

Realistically the cost of preparing properly for it including winter tyres/snow chains is well in excess of the cost to the economy of having the occasional "snow day".

 

[gsnedders]

Realistically the cost of preparing properly for it including winter tyres/snow chains is well in excess of the cost to the economy of having the occasional "snow day".

Across the UK as a whole? Sure. In most of the Highlands? I disagree.

 

[InOban]

Across the UK as a whole? Sure. In most of the Highlands? I disagree.

Because the weather generally comes from the West, much of the West Highlands gets rain rather than snow. My brother in law in berkhamstead gets snow more often than I do in Oban.

 

[Northhighland]

Again I disagree. I think it's more that they think they can get away with it, that winter tyres don't make a huge difference and that the roads should be black and snow free in the middle of the winter. Your theory relies on on people taking action to deal with things when they suspect they might happen. That is not always the case. Many people argue that winter tyres don't make much of a difference which is clearly nonsense but don't think they want to believe that they do.

Yes roads being closed is normal but I think it's reasonable to say that when drivers are less prepared, the police are more likely to close it. Norway would grind to a halt if they adopted the same attitude as the UK.

Back to HSTs, I saw two GWR coaches in the Inverness shed last night.

Winter tyres undoubtedly make a significant difference in real winter weather. Today in Inverness it is 7 degrees and the roads are bone dry. So those using winter tyres will experience longer braking distances than they would using normal tyres. My point here is is it really worth it for the 10 days totacl we have real winter weather?

 

[Northhighland]

Whilst I respect your knowledge on railway matters, I am going to say you are wrong on weather matters.

I live and work in the Highlands and travel all over the area, as well as the rest of Scotland, each week. My job requires it. I also have considerable experience in mountain sports both in Scotland and abroad and have many years of experiencing winters here and elsewhere. I have run fleets of vehicles here and elsewhere.

This is normal weather. It really is. Maybe it is not normal for the people who are experiencing it but it is completely normal for this time of year in these parts of the world.

Unfortunately most drivers are not equipped for the conditions though as they don't have winter tyres. This is the single biggest thing anyone can do to avoid becoming stuck.

In trying to show that other areas have issues too (Zermatt), you have demonstrated that *abnormal* conditions do cause issues. Zermatt and much of the western Alps is experiencing abnormal conditions. These are well documented and were studied in particular after the large, fatal events in Galtur and Le Tour some years ago.

I too travel all over the Highland and Argyll as part of my job. I have to say there is another option to avoid getting stuck, don’t travel unless you have to. If you do have to travel plan it in daylight and be sensible. Drive according to the conditions. Winter tyres definitely help but can also give some people false confidence to tackle journeys they either shouldn’t or don’t need to make. We only get 10 days in total in a bad year.

 

[Northhighland]

Eh. It's believable, given when the line was built. It's not something I'd be inclined to make much noise over, because there's no economic argument for keeping it open at all. Fortunately the Scottish Gov recognises non-economic arguments for some lines, but I'm sure they'd rather scrap it than upgrade it to the point where it was as fast as the bus.

Having said that, getting stock on to it which could split to Wick and Thurso as used to happen would cut the Wick journey time by a useful bit...

More and more Caithness people take the car to Helmsdale and get the train there. From wick Helmsdale is 45 mins in the car but 1hr 46 on the train. So you can knock an hour off the journey. Ultimately outside tourist season you can see trains terminating at Helmsdale if this trend escalated further.

 

[Northhighland]

So I must have been hallucinating while sitting under a rattling roof panel on an HST to Reading last week then... the Mk3 is a good coach, but it is not the model of utter perfection on steel wheels that some like to make out.

Depends in the quality of the maintenance and the refurb work done. Would expect the ScotRail ones to be squeak and rattle free.

 

[Highland37]

But Norway and similar countries get predictable snowfall at the same time every year. Here we get odd days, at worst a week at a time, sometime from December to May.

We know that we will get snow, so prepare for it. Or take the opposite view and don't prepare. This is another example of the British lower levels of productivity.

Realistically the cost of preparing properly for it including winter tyres/snow chains is well in excess of the cost to the economy of having the occasional "snow day".

It depends where you are and what you do. It's more than the occasional snow day where I am and what I do.

Because the weather generally comes from the West, much of the West Highlands gets rain rather than snow. My brother in law in berkhamstead gets snow more often than I do in Oban.

That's because Oban is at sea level obviously. When I lived there there was snow a few times. But inland there was often a lot more particularly towards Tyndrum. So it depends on whether you prepare for your immediate area or if you intend to, or have to travel which means preparation for other areas. The ambulance service for example often use winter tyres for this reason.

Winter tyres undoubtedly make a significant difference in real winter weather. Today in Inverness it is 7 degrees and the roads are bone dry. So those using winter tyres will experience longer braking distances than they would using normal tyres. My point here is is it really worth it for the 10 days totacl we have real winter weather?

Where in Inverness is it dry? It's been raining since first light but stopped in the last hour. The roads are wet in Lochardil.

Again, it depends on your range. My main base is on the ski road to Cairn Gorm. If I didn't have winter tyres I would not have go there much this year until the last few days.

"We only get 10 days in total in a bad year." That statement depends on what you are doing, where and who is with you.

 

[swaldman]

More and more Caithness people take the car to Helmsdale and get the train there. From wick Helmsdale is 45 mins in the car but 1hr 46 on the train. So you can knock an hour off the journey. Ultimately outside tourist season you can see trains terminating at Helmsdale if this trend escalated further.

For Wick, I can totally understand this. The current arrangement is silly.
I think the branch to Thurso would remain, because a significant proportion of those non-tourist passengers are off the ferry (and putting the car on the boat, just to drive to Helmsdale, would be rather expensive).

 

[CJSwan]

So... The HSTs... Is it still likely that the first fully refurbished one will be ready to come north on the 15th(?) of February?

 

[delt1c]

Following this thread, will the HST's be modified to be fitted with ploughs

 

[Northhighland]

For Wick, I can totally understand this. The current arrangement is silly.
I think the branch to Thurso would remain, because a significant proportion of those non-tourist passengers are off the ferry (and putting the car on the boat, just to drive to Helmsdale, would be rather expensive).

A lot of ferry passengers now go via Gills bay. Last year they carried more passengers, vehicles and freight than Scrabster / Stromness. This trend is likely to increase as Pentland Ferries are investing in a brand new vessel larger than the existing ship. I honestly think there is a real threat to the Far North line north of Helmsdale.

 

[InOban]

It's only justification is to transport nuclear waste from the dismantling of Dounreay.

 

[Northhighland]

It's only justification is to transport nuclear waste from the dismantling of Dounreay.

That is not even guaranteed for much longer. There are alternatives. Sea having been used many times before. Also published programme has that work finished in the not too distant future.

 

[theblackwatch]

This thread appears to be going way off topic. Back to HSTs please - if you want to continue discussing the other stuff, please start a new thread.

 

[Northhighland]

Following this thread, will the HST's be modified to be fitted with ploughs

Not so sure about ploughs, but sanding gear would be a definite. East Coast HST regularly skips in several places north of Pitlochry.

 

[Highlandspring]

As has been mentioned on this thread before the powercars are not being fitted with sanders.