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Should Watford become a London Borough?

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anti-pacer

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Although it's definitely part of Hertfordshire, I think Watford should fall under the remit of London.

Why I hear you cry? Well, it's within the M25 for a start, joined onto London without countryside in the way, it's on both the Overground and Underground, and to me it "feels" London more than it does Hertfordshire.

Maybe all non-London places within the M25 should follow suit. Staines, Epsom, Dartford, Loughton, Chigwell.

What can you see as being the arguments for and against such a move?
 
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PeterC

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It seems an anomoly for Watford to remain outside when Romford, Croydon and Uxbridge are all inside. I am sure that most over 60s in Watford would vote for their free rail travel.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's in the M25, it's served by London buses, you can use Oyster/Contactless...

But then again, the people of West Lancashire were set dead against becoming part of Merseyside/the Liverpool City region/whatever it's called this week despite many obvious benefits and few drawbacks.
 

PeterY

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I lived in Watford for 7 years. It was ever so handy to get into and out of London, with Oyster. It does have a London feel.

Hemel Hempstead has an isolated feel and I sometimes drive to Watford to catch the trains, using both Met and Junction stations. If the WCML goes down (a regular occurrence) I've always felt the Met line was always a good option, and not stranded waiting at Euston.
 

Bald Rick

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I think most of Hertfordshire would be happy to let Watford go. In fact we'll throw in Cheshunt and Hoddesdon to sweeten the deal.
 

PeterC

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If Watford had been in GL then the MLE probably would have happened already.
 

VauxhallandI

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I think most of Hertfordshire would be happy to let Watford go. In fact we'll throw in Cheshunt and Hoddesdon to sweeten the deal.

As a Cheshunt resident I can confirm it doesn't feel London like here or in Hoddesdon and neither would I call them sweeteners!
 

edwin_m

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Why would Boris (assuming Johnson) be involved?
I was thinking about during his term as Mayor, when TfL was instructed to bail out the Watford scheme and this was allegedly not unconnected to Watford being a marginal seat.
 

PeterC

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I was thinking about during his term as Mayor, when TfL was instructed to bail out the Watford scheme and this was allegedly not unconnected to Watford being a marginal seat.
I did wonder if that was intended as a poison pill for Sadiq Khan.
 

Busaholic

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An interesting situation exists for Freedom Pass holders regarding travel to/from Watford. They can, of course, travel free on 'red' buses from the Greater London boundary all the way to Watford Junction 24 hours a day (or as many of those hours as the buses run) and the same is true of the Met Line services to Watford, because all the London Underground falls within the scheme. The London Overground also falls within the scheme with the notable exception of the bit between Harrow and Wealdstone and Watford Junction! There is also speculation at present that when the Elizabeth Line is fully open the extent of that, to both Reading and Shenfield, will be open to free travel for all its hours of operation. So the London pensioner with time on their hands and money in their pocket can have a nice free day out to the Oracle Centre, or whatever it's called, in Reading, getting up early and travelling in the a.m. peak too!
 

Tom B

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I seem to remember that there was an argument over subsidy for red buses going to Watford - it was considered inappropriate for TfL to run them given that it was out with their area of responsibility. I believe that some local buses are run by private firms anyway.

It's an odd place because, whilst undoubtedly it's a large commuter town for London, it also has a reasonable sized town of its own, there's the Harlequin or whatever the silly new name is, so it isn't one of those towns which is completely dead other than commuting.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Although it's definitely part of Hertfordshire, I think Watford should fall under the remit of London.

Why I hear you cry? Well, it's within the M25 for a start, joined onto London without countryside in the way, it's on both the Overground and Underground, and to me it "feels" London more than it does Hertfordshire.

Maybe all non-London places within the M25 should follow suit. Staines, Epsom, Dartford, Loughton, Chigwell.

What can you see as being the arguments for and against such a move?

That's an interesting one. If you look at it purely in terms of public transport, then there's a very good case for transport in Watford to be run by TfL, since it is the natural terminus for a fair few London metro services. However, local authorities are about much more than transport, and I'm not too sure how well matched London and Watford are in other areas.

I'd question your assertion that it's joined onto London: There's an almost continuous band of countryside stretching around the South of Carpender's Park and Bushey, so it's pretty hard to travel between Watford and London without going through at least some countryside. However, I'll give you that it's a narrow band. I'd also point out that, if the aim is to put the London boundary roughly where the built up area ends, then Dartford, Staines, and Epsom would all have much stronger claims than Watford to become part of London, since they are all much more strongly part of the London built up area.

Overall, it's quite tempting to suggest that a more natural London boundary would include all four areas: Watford, Staines, Dartford, and Epsom. That would certainly be good for transport. And I suspect it would benefit those areas more generally, since it would mean they would be governed by a Mayor and and Assembly that has somewhat greater powers than do most local authorities (and which seems to be reasonably competent too).

Doing that would have a few wider political implications as a side-effect: By increasing the population that is part of London, it would strengthen any arguments for devolving more powers to the London Mayor/Assembly. It would also slightly increase the Conservatives' chances of taking control of London in elections (although, given the rate at which inner London seems to be moving leftward politically probably only slightly). It would certainly mean that those areas would change from being under almost certain Tory control to at least an even chance of Labour control at the county level. I don't think that should be part of the arguments though.

Offhand the only argument I can think off offhand against expanding the boundaries would be that London is already the biggest local authority in the country, and this would make it even bigger. I don't think that's a particularly strong argument though, since population-wise it's only a small % increase.

In the end, it probably hinges on the extent to which people in those areas feel culturally/economically associated with London, and how great the shared interests are.
 
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anti-pacer

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Offhand the only argument I can think off offhand against expanding the boundaries would be that London is already the biggest local authority in the country, and this would make it even bigger. I don't think that's a particularly strong argument though, since population-wise it's only a small % increase.

London isn't one authority as such though. 32 boroughs, plus the City of London. I know there's the London Assembly, but to me that's similar to the Welsh Assembly, Scottish Government, etc.
 

Howardh

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But then again, the people of West Lancashire were set dead against becoming part of Merseyside/the Liverpool City region/whatever it's called this week despite many obvious benefits and few drawbacks.
Too right, Bolton/Bury hate being in Greater Manchester ** and if anyone asks for evidence then I suggest they wander round Asda and The Dog and Partridge and ask - but best not to if you value your life** and, yes, there are benefits such as all-day cards throughout G***** M******** but I'm sure if we were administratively in Lancashire there would be regional cards too.
At a meeting before the referendum I "jokingly" asked the audience who were in favour of Brexit which would they rather have - being returned to Lancashire or leaving the EU. Every hand was up for Lancashire.
 

Wirewiper

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An alternative for Watford (which IS a Borough) would be to expand it into a "Greater Watford" Unitary Authority, absorbing Two Rivers and most of Hertsmere (Potters Bar would go into Welwyn-Hatfield).

Alternatively, Watford, Three Rivers and Hertsmere could combine with St Albans, Welwyn-Hatfield and Broxbourne to create a South Hertfordshire Metropolitan Authority.
 

HSTEd

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Perhaps what we need is a commision to examine, in a general sense, when the current boundaries of Greater London really make sense any more.

Indeed on a 'Larger Urban Zone' basis London would reach most of the way to Brighton and Stevenage.
 

Mojo

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Watford doesn’t feel like London to me at all.
 

anti-pacer

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Watford doesn’t feel like London to me at all.

Mind you, what does London feel like?

The City feels different to Chelsea, Peckham feels different to Pinner, and Southall feels different to Sidcup.

Watford to me though feels part of London.
 

Mojo

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Mind you, what does London feel like?

The City feels different to Chelsea, Peckham feels different to Pinner, and Southall feels different to Sidcup.

Watford to me though feels part of London.
Inclusive, welcoming, vibrant, busy. Even in suburban London amongst the areas you mentioned, the areas have a feel to them that to me, just makes me “know” that you are in London. Watford just doesn’t have that feel that I get in London, the only area else that makes me feel that way is the “new East End” (Dagenham, Upminster, etc), the kind of areas where the inhabitants will say that are in Essex.
 

Samuel88

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An interesting situation exists for Freedom Pass holders regarding travel to/from Watford. They can, of course, travel free on 'red' buses from the Greater London boundary all the way to Watford Junction 24 hours a day (or as many of those hours as the buses run) and the same is true of the Met Line services to Watford, because all the London Underground falls within the scheme. The London Overground also falls within the scheme with the notable exception of the bit between Harrow and Wealdstone and Watford Junction! There is also speculation at present that when the Elizabeth Line is fully open the extent of that, to both Reading and Shenfield, will be open to free travel for all its hours of operation. So the London pensioner with time on their hands and money in their pocket can have a nice free day out to the Oracle Centre, or whatever it's called, in Reading, getting up early and travelling in the a.m. peak too!

Actually you can use London Overground all the way to Watford Junction, it's just WM trains and Southern that Freedom passes are not valid on beyond Harrow and Wealdstone
 

higthomas

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I would say yes. But I would have London reboundaried to include them more natural end of the built up area. Thus removing bits around Biggin hill and adding in Watford, Epsom, Thames Sutton etc.
Although I would say it shouldn't go much beyond the M25
 

Bevan Price

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Although it's definitely part of Hertfordshire, I think Watford should fall under the remit of London.

Why I hear you cry? Well, it's within the M25 for a start, joined onto London without countryside in the way, it's on both the Overground and Underground, and to me it "feels" London more than it does Hertfordshire.

Maybe all non-London places within the M25 should follow suit. Staines, Epsom, Dartford, Loughton, Chigwell.

What can you see as being the arguments for and against such a move?

"Big" is bad. Better to have small organisations, but with voluntary cooperation to provide some services such as transport, waste disposal, etc. Big organisations can create opportunities for excessive levels of management, overpaid managers, etc.. It should be harder to hide unnecessary tasks & inefficient practices in small organisations.

But most important, decisions like this should be made by local resident votes, rather than policies imposed from Whitehall. As noted above, some towns resent being forced into artificial large units in 1974 (e.g. Greater Manchester, Merseyside) - because these were imposed from above with no proper consultation & agreement with the residents.

The first question should always be - "Do the residents of Watford want to be part of London" .
 
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