Help! Intent to avoid fare to settle out of court?

[Nunur]

Hi the recent letter that I received was dated January 4th and I have 14 days to respond and I know it’s late to respond but I just want advise on how I can settle the matter out of court. These are the letters that I’ve received and responded. I shamefully admit that I did intent to avoid payment on that day. I was from Wolverhampton going to Portsmouth harbour. But I only paid for the ticket from Birmingham new street to Portsmouth harbour. It’s my first time ever doing this kind of thing and I regret it and I promise myself I will never do it again. I just wanted advice on how I might be able to settle this out of court? And how I should have written to the recent letter in response?

 

[najaB]

I just wanted advice on how I might be able to settle this out of court? And how I should have written to the recent letter in response?

I suspect that asking for the fare to be reduced when you were already in the wrong was a bad idea.

As to how to proceed, all you can do is write back to offer to pay the fare plus the costs they have incurred so far. If they accept the offer expect the settlement amount to be the entire fare plus costs between £100 and 200.

 

[Nunur]

I suspect that asking for the fare to be reduced when you were already in the wrong was a bad idea.

As to how to proceed, all you can do is write back to offer to pay the fare plus the costs they have incurred so far. If they accept the offer expect the settlement amount to be the entire fare plus costs between £100 and 200.

I understand it looks bad. I was hoping if you can help me on how to construct the letter as I have no idea on how to write to them that I am willing to offer the payment. To show them that I truly regret my wrong doing. Also will they accept if I offer that amount(around £200)? In the second letter, it seems like they really want to take it into court

 

[najaB]

Also will they accept if I offer that amount(around £200)? In the second letter, it seems like they really want to take it into court

It's best not to make an offer as that can come across as if you are trying to buy your way out of the situation.

 

[Nunur]

It's best not to make an offer as that can come across as if you are trying to buy your way out of the situation.

Noted. Thanks. How do I write to them that I wanted to settle out of court? What are my chances on getting them to agree to settle out of court?

 

[cuccir]

They're lower than they were if you'd not tried to duck out of paying the full fare a second time in your initial letter.

Your initial letter was OK, exceot for the bit about paying less than the fare due. I'd also have typed it rather than hand written. Respond apologising, reiterating your understanding that you were wrong, and offer to pay the fare owed plus any costs incurred in investigating.

The good news for you is that you're being charged undergrad railway Byelaws. If you're found guilty, there is no criminal record and the fine - which is set in relation to your income - is relatively modest.

 

[StarCrossing]

The good news for you is that you're being charged undergrad railway Byelaws.

You're possibly more of an expert than me, but the 3rd paragraph of the 2nd letter suggests they're considering using the "tougher" legislation.

 

[Nunur]

You're possibly more of an expert than me, but the 3rd paragraph of the 2nd letter suggests they're considering using the "tougher" legislation.

If they do decide to proceed with that decision, what will happen exactly?

 

[furlong]

Which train company is this letter written on behalf of (or where were you stopped)?
Were you asked to pay the correct fare at the time, but you refused to do so, leading to the train company starting this process?
There are several examples on this forum of TIL disregarding reasonable requests to settle, but later in the process the train company itself agreeing to do so.

 

[cuccir]

You're possibly more of an expert than me, but the 3rd paragraph of the 2nd letter suggests they're considering using the "tougher" legislation.

I'll be honest with you, I missed that sentence.

If they do decide to proceed with that decision, what will happen exactly?

It's essentially the same process, except that it creates a criminal record (declarable for one year, plus permanently on enhanced checks called 'DBS' that are used for certain jobs) and a higher fine.

 

[Nunur]

Which train company is this letter written on behalf of (or where were you stopped)?
Were you asked to pay the correct fare at the time, but you refused to do so, leading to the train company starting this process?
There are several examples on this forum of TIL disregarding reasonable requests to settle, but later in the process the train company itself agreeing to do so.

I don’t exactly remember how it happened. I took crosscountry from Wolverhampton and changed at Southampton central to Portsmouth harbour. I was stopped between Wolverhampton and Birmingham new street. When asked, I pretended that I lost the ticket and did ask if I can pay to her at that moment but she refused. I did seem like I was intending to get away with not having the ticket.

 

[gray1404]

That seems somewhat unreasonable. Most guards would let you buy a new ticket if you said you'd lost it. Would have been better to buy a ticket to Brum then a off peak from the booking office at Brum.

Well if you offered to pay the fare at the time then they could not succeed in a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution. The problem is you have in effect changed your story when you wrote back. That said, their second letter says you stated a shorter journey then the one travelled. By definition if you were stopped between Wolves and Brum then you must have told them you were going to Portsmouth.

Yet again another example of Transport Investigations being unreasonable and sending their stupid bog standard letters that ignore attempts by the passenger to fix a problem. Let them carry on making a mess of your case and hopefully it will backfire on them and XC.

 

[najaB]

Going back to your original post, you said:

But I only paid for the ticket from Birmingham new street to Portsmouth harbour.

Did you have a ticket from Birmingham to Portsmouth but boarded at Wolverhampton instead?

 

[Nunur]

Going back to your original post, you said:

Did you have a ticket from Birmingham to Portsmouth but boarded at Wolverhampton instead?

Yes my ticket is from Birmingham new street to Portsmouth harbour. I boarded the train from Wolverhampton where I live.

 

[Darandio]

That seems somewhat unreasonable.

Entirely depends on the body language. Some make it pretty obvious they are trying to avoid the fare and the guard probably picked up on it.

Although I have to laugh once again where we have a case of someone admitting they lied and tried to avoid the fare, yet it was the member of staff that was unreasonable!

 

[najaB]

Yes my ticket is from Birmingham new street to Portsmouth harbour. I boarded the train from Wolverhampton where I live.

I presume the ticket office was open at the time and/or the ticket machines were working?

 

[Nunur]

I presume the ticket office was open at the time and/or the ticket machines were working?

Yes it was. I’m embarrassed to admit that I did purposely buy the ticket from birm new street to Portsmouth harbour even though I was from Wolverhampton.

 

[gray1404]

Surely the quickest way to deal with this matter though is to simply sell a Wolves to Brum Anytime single, moreover given an onward ticket is already held AND the customer offered up the fare. Yes, they lied and that is wrong, totally but sometimes it is better to put something right on the spot. (other TOCs would issue a PF rather then report as its cheaper and quicker resolution).

OP they are treating you as if no ticket was held for the entire journey. Did you show your onward ticket from Brum when you were stopped?

 

[Tetchytyke]

If they accept the offer expect the settlement amount to be the entire fare plus costs between £100 and 200.

The OP had a ticket from Birmingham to Portsmouth. Transport Investigations will, I'm sure, ask for the full fare from Wolverhampton to Portsmouth, which is very naughty, rather than the fare from Wolverhampton to Birmingham.

 

[Nunur]

OP they are treating you as if no ticket was held for the entire journey. Did you show your onward ticket from Brum when you were stopped?

Yes I did. I don’t exactly remember how the encounter happened, but I did seem like I intentionally don’t have the ticket. Should I just call crosscountry directly and ask them if I can settle this out of court and pay a fare instead.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I’m embarrassed to admit that I did purposely buy the ticket from birm new street to Portsmouth harbour even though I was from Wolverhampton.

You should be even more embarrassed: it's the same price from Wiolverhampton as it is from Birmingham.

Oops.

 

[najaB]

Yes it was. I’m embarrassed to admit that I did purposely buy the ticket from birm new street to Portsmouth harbour even though I was from Wolverhampton.

Did you show the inspector your Birmingham to Portsmouth Harbour ticket?

 

[Nunur]

Did you show the inspector your Birmingham to Portsmouth Harbour ticket?

yes I did. She took my ticket and issue this ticket:

 

[najaB]

yes I did. She took my ticket and issue this ticket:

Hnn... interesting that she issued it as a zero-fare excess and confiscated the original ticket (since, technically, the excess isn't valid without the ticket).

Can you remember exactly what ticket you held (e.g. did it say Advance or Off-Peak) or, failing that, exactly how much you paid for it?

 

[Nunur]

Can you remember exactly what ticket you held (e.g. did it say Advance or Off-Peak) or, failing that, exactly how much you paid for it?

This is the return ticket:

 

[Nunur]

Can you remember exactly what ticket you held (e.g. did it say Advance or Off-Peak) or, failing that, exactly how much you paid for it?

This is the return ticket: View attachment 41704

 

[najaB]

First some good news: By issuing a zero-fare excess and allowing you to travel on the return portion of the ticket, XC have accepted that you had a valid ticket for the Birmingham to Portsmouth Harbour potion of your journey. So the maximum fare due is a Wolverhampton to Birmingham stations Anytime Return.

However, you are still guilty of a Byelaw 18 offence and potentially guilty of a Regulation of Railways Act § 5 offence in respect of the Wolverhampton to Birmingham portion of your journey.

I suggest that you write back to TIL admitting that while you had a valid ticket from Birmingham to Portsmouth, you didn't have one from Wolverhampton to Birmingham, offer to pay the fare due and their costs and commit to always buying before boarding in future.

 

[Nunur]

I suggest that you write back to TIL admitting that while you had a valid ticket from Birmingham to Portsmouth, you didn't have one from Wolverhampton to Birmingham, offer to pay the fare due and their costs and commit to always buying before boarding in future.

Can I know the estimation cost of successfully settling out of court and settling in court?
I plan to send them this:
“Thank you for your letter in response. Firstly, I would like to apologise for the inconvenience. I would like to request to withdraw the court case and make payment. While I had a valid ticket form Birmingham New Street to Portsmouth Harbour, I did not have one from Wolverhampton to Birmingham New Street. I am willing to pay the fare due and any cost that you require.”
What do you think?

 

[najaB]

Can I know the estimation cost of successfully settling out of court and settling in court?

If you settle out of court expect the amount to be the fare (£3.15 with 16-25 Railcard discount) plus a contribution to the TOCs costs (typically £75-£150).

If it goes to court then you can expect a fine plus the fare, victim surcharge, etc. - £400 in total would be typical. If they convict you of a RoRA offence then the conviction would also be visible on criminal record checks for one year (and on enhanced checks for a lot longer than that).

 

[Nunur]

If you settle out of court expect the amount to be the fare (£3.15 with 16-25 Railcard discount) plus a contribution to the TOCs costs (typically £75-£150).

If it goes to court then you can expect a fine plus the fare, victim surcharge, etc. - £400 in total would be typical. If they convict you of a RoRA offence then the conviction would also be visible on criminal record checks for one year (and on enhanced checks for a lot longer than that).

What will be the max cost if it goes to court?