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South Wales 'Metro' updates

gareth950

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I understand the idea for separate light rail and heavy rail systems, but given costs, and the disruption caused by digging up roads, you can see why the use of existing infrastructure can offer savings and efficiencies, though any conversion would be highly disruptive to today's rail users.

I guess for me it comes down to this: would I rather turn up to Caerphilly station in the morning peak and have a tram train every 4-5 minutes to get to central Cardiff, or a train every 15 minutes. I'd pick the former, even if I had to stand every day.

There won't be any trams or tram - trains every 4 - 5 minutes from Caerphilly regardless! 15 minute frequencies are the best any mode will deliver. Caerphilly has that with trains right now.


WG/TfW have done an excellent job in managing a very complex procurement - and between them and the bidders have all the necessary expertise and experience to define & deliver better and more affordable services to passengers. Lets wait and see....

More affordable? The Valley lines currently have the cheapest fares anywhere on the UK rail network.
Expertise and experience? So much so that one bidder dropped out early on, and another bidder has gone bust and collapsed, leaving just 2 left.
Yet still, a Labour administration wants to hand over control of currently publicly owned and operated infrastructure to a private contractor. Makes sense.
If it's going to be so transformational and wonderful, why the total secrecy? Why not release the ITT? Why treat stakeholders and rail users with contempt?

Im confused if this is sarcasm or not?

Sadly I don't think it is. I'm guessing the poster works for Transport for Wales or Welsh Govt civil service.
 
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RailUK Forums

Solaris

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Don't you all find it very dark and cold in your cave....come on out its warm and sunny!
 

Gareth Marston

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Don't you all find it very dark and cold in your cave....come on out its warm and sunny!

Solaris if you have some "inside knowledge" then please share it with us, your last two posts have been little more than a poor attempt to wind people up with no content. Try posting some content and fact or join the debate! Go on its not to hard. The Welsh Governments secret squirrel approach is whats driving all this angst and worry due to the treatment of rail users and the general public with contempt.
 

YorkshireBear

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Don't you all find it very dark and cold in your cave....come on out its warm and sunny!

Aye is the sun to tempt us out so that corrupt politicians and private companies can make lots of money at the expense of others?
 

B&I

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What utter lunatic is proposing the effective abandonment of existing heavy rail infrastructure round Cardiff, by moving absolutely everything onto street running sections? If Cardiff needs on-street trams, surely this can be done without stuffing thee entire Valleys network in the process?
 

Solaris

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Ok maybe I was being a little flippant...there has been a huge amount of work undertaken over the last five years to assess all options, modes and variants thereof (so I suspect most if not all of the questions and issues raised in this forum have been considered) and a procurement process designed to get the best and most affordable and deliverable proposals from the bidders (without constraining them) at the same time as accommodating the dynamics of the Cardiff Bay- Westminster relationship. Given these challenges and the reality that no process can be perfect, I am impressed by the work to date and am confident the ultimate solution will be the right long term approach for both the valleys and Wales- and remember each of the bidders have been working on this for nearly two years and will have deployed a huge amount of expertise and experience. Lets wait until procurement is concluded and details published....?
 

gareth950

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I originally deleted this post - however - as I originally said, if the reports and maps released by Mott MacDonald are any indication of plans, then any concerns raised on this forum or anywhere else certainly have not be considered or listened to.
Platitudes don't help.
 
Last edited:

Del1977

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There won't be any trams or tram - trains every 4 - 5 minutes from Caerphilly regardless! 15 minute frequencies are the best any mode will deliver. Caerphilly has that with trains right now.

I don't see why you think that following a conversion to light rail that 15 minute intervals are the best that could be managed between Caerphilly and Cardiff Queen Street.

Following the CASR works, there's now 16 paths between Queen Street and Central. So currently -> 4 to Bargoed, 2 to Coryton, 6 to Pontypridd (and onwards). That leaves 4 unused paths now?

If the braking profile of tram/trains is different, the signalling adjusted, additional on-street running (Coryton branch) etc. - then frequency improvements - *if demand exists* - are obviously possible. What headway do you think operates on other urban systems, or even busy sections of the former Network South East?
 

WelshBluebird

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would I rather turn up to Caerphilly station in the morning peak and have a tram train every 4-5 minutes to get to central Cardiff, or a train every 15 minutes.

I guess that is the issue isn't it. I would say it depends on how optimistic you are. I have literally zero confidence tram frequencies will be that high at places like Caerphilly or Trerherbert. I think every 15 minutes is the best we will probably get at those extremities. No different to what would be possible on heavy rail.

Basically it comes down to:

If tram frequencies were say every 5 minutes, and the journey time was roughly the same, and through ticketing was still available, and services still ran through from the heads of the valleys through to Cardiff Central, then yeah that would be better.

But if frequencies were say every 15 minutes or greater, the journey time is longer, I have to buy separate tickets to travel beyond the metro area and I have to change trams at Queen Street, then hell no why on earth would that be a good thing?

Ok maybe I was being a little flippant...there has been a huge amount of work undertaken over the last five years to assess all options, modes and variants thereof (so I suspect most if not all of the questions and issues raised in this forum have been considered) and a procurement process designed to get the best and most affordable and deliverable proposals from the bidders (without constraining them) at the same time as accommodating the dynamics of the Cardiff Bay- Westminster relationship. Given these challenges and the reality that no process can be perfect, I am impressed by the work to date and am confident the ultimate solution will be the right long term approach for both the valleys and Wales- and remember each of the bidders have been working on this for nearly two years and will have deployed a huge amount of expertise and experience. Lets wait until procurement is concluded and details published....?

So if all the work has been so amazing and everything will be great, why on earth is it being done in secret? With literally nothing being told to the public. With no transparency or accountability. They are not being anywhere near honest with the public. And as for being confident that the solution will be the right thing long term, do you actually have any evidence for that? Because so far everything points to it only being the right thing for those currently in power!

I don't see why you think that following a conversion to light rail that 15 minute intervals are the best that could be managed between Caerphilly and Cardiff Queen Street.

There is a difference between what is technically possible and what will actually be run. You could get a high frequency of service literally now, but as you mention it isn't being done. You could get a much much better Sunday service literally right now, but again it isn't being done. I just don't see any reason why you seem to be so confident that tram frequencies will be so frequent. Correct me if I am wrong, but don't many of the Manchester tram routes run to a 12 minute frequency? Barely better than the 15 mins achievable by heavy rail and certainly not worth the downgrades in other areas.
 

Dai Corner

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Ok maybe I was being a little flippant...there has been a huge amount of work undertaken over the last five years to assess all options, modes and variants thereof (so I suspect most if not all of the questions and issues raised in this forum have been considered) and a procurement process designed to get the best and most affordable and deliverable proposals from the bidders (without constraining them) at the same time as accommodating the dynamics of the Cardiff Bay- Westminster relationship. Given these challenges and the reality that no process can be perfect, I am impressed by the work to date and am confident the ultimate solution will be the right long term approach for both the valleys and Wales- and remember each of the bidders have been working on this for nearly two years and will have deployed a huge amount of expertise and experience. Lets wait until procurement is concluded and details published....?

Good. I'm glad to hear that. The Cardiff resignalling was considered as part of all this and will not be a waste of money. There will be 16 trains an hour between Queen Street and Central, many of them continuing to the Vale.
 

Del1977

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There is a difference between what is technically possible and what will actually be run. You could get a high frequency of service literally now, but as you mention it isn't being done. You could get a much much better Sunday service literally right now, but again it isn't being done. I just don't see any reason why you seem to be so confident that tram frequencies will be so frequent. Correct me if I am wrong, but don't many of the Manchester tram routes run to a 12 minute frequency? Barely better than the 15 mins achievable by heavy rail and certainly not worth the downgrades in other areas.

Agree that the secrecy of the tender is adding to the scepticism. We know so little about their plans.

Re: Metrolink: 12 minutes, but doubling up of services in sections, e.g. Altrincham northbound is every 6 minutes, but run through to different destinations after the city centre.

I don't think Treherbert or Rhymney at the extremities need frequencies of 12 minutes, but you can terminate services as they progress northwards.

Why not northbound from CQS, something like the following: 4 per hour to Rhymney, an additional 2 services as far as Bargoed (or send off up the Cwmbargoed branch), and an additional 2 to Caerphilly. That would give 7-8 minutes to Caerphilly.
 

Gareth Marston

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And its no surprise we are all cynical about the Welsh Government on transport remember how Carwhinge was adamant that the so called M4 Relief was going to cost nowhere near £ One Billion (implied a lot less) now it appears that its up £1.5 Billion before a sod has been cut...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-42716981
M4 relief road expected to cost more than £1.4bn
 

gareth950

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And its no surprise we are all cynical about the Welsh Government on transport remember how Carwhinge was adamant that the so called M4 Relief was going to cost nowhere near £ One Billion (implied a lot less) now it appears that its up £1.5 Billion before a sod has been cut...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-42716981
It's appalling that there is apparently no money to electrify the whole of the SE Wales Metro area, Inc the lines to Vale of Glamorgan, Maesteg, Ebbw Vale, and the mainline to Bridgend & Swansea, or do any enhancements up the Marches, or build any heavy rail extensions or new openings anywhere, yet £1.5 billion (which will go up again) is available to squander on this environmentally devastating, damaging scheme.
 

NotATrainspott

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The plans might be secret now but they're going to have to be released before the first sod is cut. If the plans are crap, then the public is going to end up finding out. If Welsh Labour is planning to waste more than a billion pounds of taxpayer's money on a crap scheme, they're going to hear about it. We know how much the other political parties criticise them when they do anything at all, so just imagine how bad it would be if they actually had a rubbish plan. They can't railroad a scheme through the Assembly because they don't have a majority, and because their politicians want to be re-elected. If a Labour AM votes it through and the electorate find out it's all a complete waste of money, they're going to face the consequences at the next election. Transport might be an important role for the Welsh government but this scheme isn't worth losing a future election over.

With a transport scheme like this, it's fairly easy for experts to get involved and make judgements which carry a lot more weight than normal politician-speak. If they're planning on spending all of this money to run a bad service, there will be plenty of people across the engineering and governance sectors who will be happy to point out all of the flaws. I can't think of many other transport schemes which have gone ahead despite active opposition from knowledgeable sources.

- The reason it's easier to develop these extensions is partly because of the lower safety standards of light rail. Is this something we should be willing to accept? We saw what happened in Croydon. Similarly the infrastructure isn't always maintained to the same standards. Metrolink has had these issues with things failing and major disruption resulting

Light rail isn't about having lower safety standards. In some ways, safety can be different. Heavy rail trains might be more segregated, but if something does go wrong they have a harder time stopping before hitting something. Light rail systems are allowed to be, well, lighter because they're not expected to share track with fast, heavy trains. A Class 195 will be a much stronger and more expensive vehicle because it has to be able to handle a collision with a loaded freight train. A tram just needs to worry about other trams, or other road vehicles like buses and lorries. If a freight train hits a tram, then something has gone very, very wrong indeed.

Moving forward, it seems likely that new systems (such as a light rail conversion of the Valley Lines) will have higher safety requirements than before. After the Croydon incident any new light rail trains will probably need fitted with safety glass and some sort of emergency speed control. This isn't going to add that much to the cost or change the nature of light rail, so it's not really that relevant in this discussion.

It's appalling that there is apparently no money to electrify the whole of the SE Wales Metro area, Inc the lines to Vale of Glamorgan, Maesteg, Ebbw Vale, and the mainline to Bridgend & Swansea, or do any enhancements up the Marches, or build any heavy rail extensions or new openings anywhere, yet £1.5 billion (which will go up again) is available to squander on this environmentally devastating, damaging scheme.

Putting aside concerns about this specific scheme, the idea that £1.5bn might be available for this but not for normal heavy rail improvements is perfectly reasonable. Governments have to make decisions about how best to spend the money they've got. That £1.5bn could go on all sorts of different things, and the government has to find the use which will give them the best return. For the reasons I've tried to outline, in general the use of light rail technology is more cost-effective at delivering good outcomes for urban transport projects. £1.5bn on light rail might get you £2.3bn worth of benefit, while that £1.5bn on heavy rail might get you only £1.7bn.
 

gareth950

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I think you're getting mine and Gareth Marston's posts mixed up NotATrainspott. The £1.5 billion figure is for the controversial proposed M4 relief road black route project. Nothing to do with the South Wales Metro or anything rail related. We are just pointing out the absurdity of it.

Welsh Govt have no intention of releasing any details at all about anything to do with the Metro or new franchise bids until they name their preferred bidder in the 'Spring', and it will be presented as a fait accompli to the public. No chance for scrutiny at all, from anyone, at any stage of the process.
 

NotATrainspott

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I think you're getting mine and Gareth Marston's posts mixed up NotATrainspott. The £1.5 billion figure is for the controversial proposed M4 relief road black route project. Nothing to do with the South Wales Metro or anything rail related. We are just pointing out the absurdity of it.

Welsh Govt have no intention of releasing any details at all about anything to do with the Metro or new franchise bids until they name their preferred bidder in the 'Spring', and it will be presented as a fait accompli to the public. No chance for scrutiny at all, from anyone, at any stage of the process.

Ah, yes, I see. In any case, the point I'm making stands. If there's money available, it will likely go much further when light rail technology can be used.

What I'm saying is that it's not going to be a fait accompli, unless the scheme they announce is actually inherently sound. If the Welsh government announce they've agreed to spend huge amounts of taxpayer's money on a crap scheme, then there are going to be very serious political consequences. Even if there are contractual penalties the government might face for cancelling or re-designing the scheme, it's most unlikely that these would be more damaging to the government than going ahead and building it. That is, unless the Welsh government have really messed things up - at that point I can see the DfT clawing back any devolved powers as soon as they possibly can.
 

edwin_m

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What I'm saying is that it's not going to be a fait accompli, unless the scheme they announce is actually inherently sound. If the Welsh government announce they've agreed to spend huge amounts of taxpayer's money on a crap scheme, then there are going to be very serious political consequences.
I suppose the problem with that is is that different people will have different definitions of crap. This and other topics show how certain people will automatically dismiss any option that uses second-hand units, or light rail technology, or no toilets on the vehicle even if the scheme includes building them at every station, or all sorts of other criteria which I suggest are rather subjective and don't necessarily recognise the trade-offs that are inherent in providing a solution that tries to meet conflicting aspirations within a limited budget. As soon as TfW announces details of the winning bid there will be a chorus (less harmonious than those traditionally associated with the Valleys) of people pointing out where it doesn't meet their pet criteria and is therefore rubbish.
 

Bwlch y Groes

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This and other topics show how certain people will automatically dismiss any option that uses second-hand units, or light rail technology, or no toilets on the vehicle even if the scheme includes building them at every station, or all sorts of other criteria which I suggest are rather subjective and don't necessarily recognise the trade-offs that are inherent in providing a solution that tries to meet conflicting aspirations within a limited budget.

Such a limited budget that they're happy to spend £1.4bn on a new road that does very little beyond other more cost-effective solutions and £100m on one station, but somehow they can only find £275m for the conversion of the whole of the Core Valleys network to light rail? This all undoing the millions of pounds that has already been spent upgrading so many of the stations and the signalling over the past few years?

The whole point is that it's a farce before we even get to the practicalities of what is being proposed - and there are plenty of posts in this thread which explain in detail why exactly light rail conversion would be a terrible idea. This isn't just a few of us having a moan for the sake of it. I spend a lot of time at home in South Wales. I do not want the massive inconvenience of having to catch a tiny tram on a 45-minute journey down the valley, with no toilets, only to go no further than Cardiff Queen Street, to have to change onto another tram to go to Cardiff Central, possibly via a detour into the city, to be dropped at what looks like a little platform outside the main building (albeit at least under cover), so that I can finally get a connection to somewhere outside South Wales

I'd accept the pragmatism argument if this project was remotely pragmatic. There is no evidence that suggests this whatsoever

Believe me, I was on a tram tonight in Birmingham, and it's fine for getting around there on a short journey, but I wasn't on there any longer than I wanted to be - even the tram conductor agreed after I told him what was being proposed in Wales
 

edwin_m

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The whole point is that it's a farce before we even get to the practicalities of what is being proposed - and there are plenty of posts in this thread which explain in detail why exactly light rail conversion would be a terrible idea. This isn't just a few of us having a moan for the sake of it. I spend a lot of time at home in South Wales. I do not want the massive inconvenience of having to catch a tiny tram on a 45-minute journey down the valley, with no toilets, only to go no further than Cardiff Queen Street, to have to change onto another tram to go to Cardiff Central, possibly via a detour into the city, to be dropped at what looks like a little platform outside the main building (albeit at least under cover), so that I can finally get a connection to somewhere outside South Wales

Believe me, I was on a tram tonight in Birmingham, and it's fine for getting around there on a short journey, but I wasn't on there any longer than I wanted to be - even the tram conductor agreed after I told him what was being proposed in Wales
"Light rain conversion" could happen without doing any of these things. I agree that if it turns out it does then there would be good reasons to complain, but that's not a reason to say that any light rail option is automatically a bad thing.
 

NotATrainspott

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I suppose the problem with that is is that different people will have different definitions of crap. This and other topics show how certain people will automatically dismiss any option that uses second-hand units, or light rail technology, or no toilets on the vehicle even if the scheme includes building them at every station, or all sorts of other criteria which I suggest are rather subjective and don't necessarily recognise the trade-offs that are inherent in providing a solution that tries to meet conflicting aspirations within a limited budget. As soon as TfW announces details of the winning bid there will be a chorus (less harmonious than those traditionally associated with the Valleys) of people pointing out where it doesn't meet their pet criteria and is therefore rubbish.

Such a limited budget that they're happy to spend £1.4bn on a new road that does very little beyond other more cost-effective solutions and £100m on one station, but somehow they can only find £275m for the conversion of the whole of the Core Valleys network to light rail? This all undoing the millions of pounds that has already been spent upgrading so many of the stations and the signalling over the past few years?

The whole point is that it's a farce before we even get to the practicalities of what is being proposed - and there are plenty of posts in this thread which explain in detail why exactly light rail conversion would be a terrible idea. This isn't just a few of us having a moan for the sake of it. I spend a lot of time at home in South Wales. I do not want the massive inconvenience of having to catch a tiny tram on a 45-minute journey down the valley, with no toilets, only to go no further than Cardiff Queen Street, to have to change onto another tram to go to Cardiff Central, possibly via a detour into the city, to be dropped at what looks like a little platform outside the main building (albeit at least under cover), so that I can finally get a connection to somewhere outside South Wales

I'd accept the pragmatism argument if this project was remotely pragmatic. There is no evidence that suggests this whatsoever

Believe me, I was on a tram tonight in Birmingham, and it's fine for getting around there on a short journey, but I wasn't on there any longer than I wanted to be - even the tram conductor agreed after I told him what was being proposed in Wales

I know that there are going to be personal definitions of 'crap'. What I'm talking about is the idea the government are going to come out with a scheme whose only merit is that it's controlled by Cardiff and not London, or under private control versus the state. Light rail conversion is worthwhile when the benefits it provides (e.g. easy extension/enhancement, higher frequencies, lower fares) outweigh the disadvantages. If the announced scheme has enough advantages over disadvantages to justify the price tag, then transport and political circles won't have that much to complain about. The electorate (i.e. normal people, who care about the ends rather than the means of transportation) needs to perceive a personal benefit from the scheme for it to be politically viable. If the scheme is as bad as some of the posters in this thread claim, then voters and experts aren't going to find much at all to be happy about. If so, the scheme doesn't make any political sense. The Welsh Assembly is elected via PR, so parties there really do have to worry about getting things right in the eyes of the electorate.
 

Bwlch y Groes

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"Light rain conversion" could happen without doing any of these things. I agree that if it turns out it does then there would be good reasons to complain, but that's not a reason to say that any light rail option is automatically a bad thing.

Well, I've tried to convince myself to be more positive about it by suggesting to myself that it could be something along the lines of the Tyne and Wear Metro which would be OK. But then you have to factor in the on-street running they want and the only conclusion is that trams or tram-trains will be the option they go forward with. The point is that it's more than just the train - the whole setup, as per the plans on the Welsh Assembly website, is horribly flawed

The electorate (i.e. normal people, who care about the ends rather than the means of transportation) needs to perceive a personal benefit from the scheme for it to be politically viable. If the scheme is as bad as some of the posters in this thread claim, then voters and experts aren't going to find much at all to be happy about. If so, the scheme doesn't make any political sense. The Welsh Assembly is elected via PR, so parties there really do have to worry about getting things right in the eyes of the electorate.

The Welsh Assembly is not entirely elected via PR. 40 of the seats are on a constituency basis, roughly the same constituencies as at Westminster. The remaining 20 are by the Additional Member System which is proportional representation but only after factoring in the initial constituency results. The long and short of this is that Labour have never held more than 30 seats or fewer than 26 seats. Their position is under no jeopardy whatsoever. There's no scrutiny from the media and I suspect the public will not become aware of the full details of what this involves until we're already well down the line with the project. I don't believe people will ever fully realise just how damaging this is until 10, 20 years down the line, by which time the current Welsh Labour leadership will be long gone

There is absolutely no risk for the likes of Carwyn Jones and Ken Skates with a project like this - it's only positive political capital in the short term, and if there are any issues with the construction, they can shift that on the private contractors they have handed the lines onto. It's exactly what the Major government did in privatising the railways to begin with - they can shift all the media and public scrutiny onto a private company while still retaining control of the railways
 

tomuk

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Solaris is Ken Skates and I claim my five pounds.

The most obvious issue with trams is seating capacity.

Metrolink - 58 seats
EMU - 282 seats

You would need to run 20tph to get the same capacity as 4tph on a four car emu.
 

Gareth Marston

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Solaris is Ken Skates and I claim my five pounds.

The most obvious issue with trams is seating capacity.

Metrolink - 58 seats
EMU - 282 seats

You would need to run 20tph to get the same capacity as 4tph on a four car emu.

That's the core issue - the biggest complaint of current users is about getting a seat at peak times and overcrowding. Skates has promised this will be addressed but a Light Rail System/ Trams are designed to carry larger standing numbers over short distances.

Take the Cardiff to Pontypridd core section there's currently 1000 seats an hour with the Pacer/150 combos which is widely seen as inadequate at peak times. The original Heavy Rail Electrification plan was to have 2 tph to the Heads of Valley towns with another 2 tph using the turnback at Pontypridd during peak hours. 8 tph running as 3 car Class 315 EMU's would deliver 1840 seats per hour in the peak.

With 4 tph to the heads that 12 trams per hour south of Pontypridd each one would need to be doubled up and that would only get you 1440 seats and could you realistically run them any more frequent than at 5 minute headways you'd need for 12 tph?
 

gareth950

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More details are slowly being drip fed out. More documents have appeared here: https://tfw.gov.wales/projects/south-wales-metro about plans for the land that TfW has bought at Taffs Well and they've put in a planning application for a rolling stock depot.

https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/documents/Taffs Well Depot Pre-App Consultation - Master Plan 1 of 2.pdf
This document shows the main plans for the proposed depot. Note on the right hand side is labelled 'Stabling for 25 x 50m South Wales Metro rolling stock.'
That's either stabling for trams or some very short trains.
 

WelshBluebird

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"Light rain conversion" could happen without doing any of these things. I agree that if it turns out it does then there would be good reasons to complain, but that's not a reason to say that any light rail option is automatically a bad thing.

The thing is, those things (short trams, forcing changes at Queen Street) are things that have been talked about as possibilities. The very fact that they have not been dismissed totally is worrying in my eyes!
 

Domh245

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That's either stabling for trams or some very short trains.

And if the green blocks marked out on the tracks are anything to go by, each of these rolling stock has 9 segments, including 4 without bogies. The only problem however is that CAF say that their Urbos tram design only goes up to 43m!

Those loops also look remarkably tram like, I certainly don't think there are many heavy rail depots with such features.
 

gareth950

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I do not see how Welsh Govt can continue with the line 'wait and see what comes from the procurement process' (yes, i'm looking at you Solaris) and 'we haven't decided yet'.
It' glaringly obvious TfW have decided what they want and have told bidders what they must specify. How can the cloak of secrecy be possibly kept up any longer?
Just admit to the plans and let them be scrutinised. It' all going to be a land of milk and honey isn't it Ken?
 

Del1977

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Piecing together the snippets is like solving a mystery. So looking at the Taff's Well plans, it's trams.

25 x 50m births. Anyone care to work out the expected frequencies based on the potential availability, assuming this is the only depot and they aren't going to be using Canton?
 

Bletchleyite

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Er, why? CAF can build regular DMUs and EMUs at a good price as well, ask Northern. I think the chance of whatever it is being CAF built is high, but they offer a wide range of different types of rolling stock. The only thing they don't appear to do is a bi-mode.
 

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