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Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

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Gareth Marston

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We'll be lucky to even get that.

In fairness I think everyone knows that already apart the Welsh Government public denial of anything that makes them look bad department who will continually deny all knowledge of any impending problem or try and shift blame elsewhere.

meanwhile my benchmark for the replacement franchise is
"the end of 2 car DMU's running Wales and Border long distance services services into Manchester/Birmingham/ Cardiff'.

If they achieve that then it has to have been done with increased fleet size so meaning that frequency enhancements will be possible elsewhere.
 
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WelshBluebird

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How are we going to measure as success or not of what the WG will announce as the greatest thing since sliced bread?

Pacers living beyond 2021 (giving them a little leeway) = fail
Trams on the valley lines as far as Cardiff Queen Street = fail
Trams on the valley lines into Cardiff Central = probable fail but I'll wait and see what happens before judging too much
Full heavy rail electrification of the valley lines and an increase in capacity on those services = success
Full heavy rail electrification of the valley lines but the same capacity as now = better than the worse options so I'll still say a success even if the extra capacity is really needed!
 

aylesbury

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The Welsh Govt seem to spend their time whinging every time I see them on tv and this franchise seems to be a complete mess no wonder Arriva withdrew.
 

Gareth Marston

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The Welsh Govt seem to spend their time whinging every time I see them on tv and this franchise seems to be a complete mess no wonder Arriva withdrew.

Welcome to the narrative of the attempted passing of blame. Simply put we've had 7 and half years of stuck record about how they are not given the tools to do the job properly (we want more powers) and are not funded fairly. The implication is that the nasty Torys in London are holding the Assembly back and Welsh Labour can't be blamed for problems. All this of course ignores the 11 years previous to the 2010 General Election when you have to believe all was perfect and changed over night!

Welsh Labour have literally had 15 years to prepare for the new Wales and Border franchise...what could go wrong?
 

Masbroughlad

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I just heard on the BBC that Abellio were in partnership with bsnkrupt Carillion - is that right?

So, if they withdraw and Arriva has withdrawn, does that leave one bidder (I forget who)?

Surely the whole process will now have to stop?
 

Domh245

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I just heard on the BBC that Abellio were in partnership with bsnkrupt Carillion - is that right?

So, if they withdraw and Arriva has withdrawn, does that leave one bidder (I forget who)?

Surely the whole process will now have to stop?

2 left if Abellio are forced to withdraw - Keolis/Amey and MTR/Bam Nuttall. Although it'll be interesting to see if there is any move from Abellio to try and get Costain (who were partnered with Arriva) on board, although it could be difficult as Abellio also have AECOM, who were doing the design aspects.
 

Gareth Marston

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I just heard on the BBC that Abellio were in partnership with bsnkrupt Carillion - is that right?

So, if they withdraw and Arriva has withdrawn, does that leave one bidder (I forget who)?

Surely the whole process will now have to stop?

No there's two more however with the BBC quoting Welsh Government as seeking legal advice about Abeilio I suspect they are trying to find some bodge to keep their favoured bidder in the race.
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
I have created a new thread at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/suggestion-north-wales-taktfahrplan.159506/ with a suggested clock face timetable concentrating on North Wales.

I have incorporated the Halton Curve and Bangor (Gwynedd) - Caernarfon (if possible to reopen easily) into the plan, alongside with an improved Borderlands frequency for illustrative purposes detailing connections at Shotton.
 

JetStream

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gareth950

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I don't see how there's any way for Abellio to stay in the competition. They've lost their construction partner for the Valley lines and Metro and the final deadline for bids was 21st December. Time's up.
Unless the whole competition is put on hold to allow them to find another construction partner, which would involve drawing up a new bid and delay the whole process by months, with no doubt compensation being owed to the other 2 remaining bidders and ATW getting an inevitable franchise extension, which WG are desperate to avoid, Abellio are gone.

Unless of course WG decide to let Network Rail keep ownership and control of the Valley lines and just award a standard TOC franchise. Again, the other 2 bidders left would have to be compensated for this.

Welsh Govt made this mess through one of the most fiendishly complicated franchise awards ever. Now they have to deal with the consequences of it going wrong.
 

gareth950

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If there is one bidder and the bid is acceptable I don't see why it should.

Edit: but I don't think you are right:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/three-firms-bidding-run-trains-13908092

You may be thinking of KeolisAmey, where Amey is a similar (but completely separate, and not bankrupt) company to Carillion. The Abellio bid is standalone.

The Abellio bid was not stand alone, they had to partner with Aecom for the design of the Metro / Valley lines and Carillion for the construction. Without Carillion, Abellio's bid has collapsed.
 

Parallel

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I don't see how there's any way for Abellio to stay in the competition. They've lost their construction partner for the Valley lines and Metro and the final deadline for bids was 21st December. Time's up.
Unless the whole competition is put on hold to allow them to find another construction partner, which would involve drawing up a new bid and delay the whole process by months, with no doubt compensation being owed to the other 2 remaining bidders and ATW getting an inevitable franchise extension, which WG are desperate to avoid, Abellio are gone.

Unless of course WG decide to let Network Rail keep ownership and control of the Valley lines and just award a standard TOC franchise. Again, the other 2 bidders left would have to be compensated for this.

Welsh Govt made this mess through one of the most fiendishly complicated franchise awards ever. Now they have to deal with the consequences of it going wrong.

Yes, and it's turning into a bit of a mess with Arriva dropping out and Abellio's bid collapsing. Which other bidders are left? The time is ticking as well. It's now under 2 years until all their stock needs PRM mods. As far as I know, the only stock that meets this is the 175s but it's possible that even these needs tweaking. Oops!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Yes, and it's turning into a bit of a mess with Arriva dropping out and Abellio's bid collapsing. Which other bidders are left? The time is ticking as well. It's now under 2 years until all their stock needs PRM mods. As far as I know, the only stock that meets this is the 175s but it's possible that even these needs tweaking. Oops!

KeolisAmey and MTR remain in the bidding. Both are credible suppliers.
KeolisAmey runs DLR and Manchester Metrolink
MTR operates the Hong Kong Metro and built recent major extensions to it.
 

JetStream

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http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/abellio-gives-update-metro-wales-14168609

"Abellio Rail Cymru (ARC) acknowledges the decision by Carillion plc to enter into liquidation on Monday 15 January.

"We remain in the contract letting process for the Wales and Borders rail service and south Wales Metro being administered by Transport for Wales (TfW) and are bound by the procurement rules governing that process.

"During the duration of the competition we will make no further comments or issue any press releases relating to our bid unless there are any changes in our position."

So they're not pulling out, but I can't see how the WG can award it to them - given they've no constructor!
 

Gareth Marston

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More on Abeilio @ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-42725365

It will boil down to the "procurement rules" - I wonder just how clever TfW/WG were in their gagging contracts and whether this scenario was covered at all.

Anyway i have contacted Abeilio and bid really low in order to win the work, of course i shall outsource all the work to some boys I know who will outsource it to some boys they know. Then when we discover that an electrification mast has to be moved 3 foot somewhere near Aberdare that TfW haven't specified we will shaft them for extra £ millions. In the meantime i've promised some work for Irish firms and registered my company in Dublin where hopefully i will pay no tax by telling the Irish Government how many people I employ there. "Unforseen problems due to old mine workings in the South Wales Valleys" will need extra £ from TfW of course to resolve.
 

berneyarms

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More on Abeilio @ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-42725365

It will boil down to the "procurement rules" - I wonder just how clever TfW/WG were in their gagging contracts and whether this scenario was covered at all.

Anyway i have contacted Abeilio and bid really low in order to win the work, of course i shall outsource all the work to some boys I know who will outsource it to some boys they know. Then when we discover that an electrification mast has to be moved 3 foot somewhere near Aberdare that TfW haven't specified we will shaft them for extra £ millions. In the meantime i've promised some work for Irish firms and registered my company in Dublin where hopefully i will pay no tax by telling the Irish Government how many people I employ there. "Unforseen problems due to old mine workings in the South Wales Valleys" will need extra £ from TfW of course to resolve.

No need for the Irish wisecracks - we pay enough tax here as it is (many can pay 52%+). Yes we may have a low corporate tax but that’s well counteracted by other taxes.
 

Gareth Marston

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No need for the Irish wisecracks - we pay enough tax here as it is (many can pay 52%+). Yes we may have a low corporate tax but that’s well counteracted by other taxes.

My fruity offshore company might not......

However if this Dutch new article is to be believed aggressive underbidding by Abeilio is par for the course and there in financial do dahs in the UK. They must be desperate as the must have chucked £ 3 million quid at this bid...

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archiv...ator-braced-for-huge-losses-on-uk-franchises/

‘NS subsidiary Abellio is making very aggressive moves which can only lead to substantial losses, which NS and the Dutch taxpayer will have to bear,’ the Telegraaf quoted a top figure in the UK rail sector as saying on Wednesday.

Read more at DutchNews.nl: Dutch rail operator braced for ‘huge losses’ on UK franchises http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archiv...ator-braced-for-huge-losses-on-uk-franchises/
 

LNW-GW Joint

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However if this Dutch new article is to be believed aggressive underbidding by Abeilio is par for the course and there in financial do dahs in the UK. They must be desperate as the must have chucked £ 3 million quid at this bid...
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archiv...ator-braced-for-huge-losses-on-uk-franchises/

That's the Dutch quoting British "informed" sources.
How do they know Abellio bid 20% more than its rivals for GA and WM?
Abellio also won WM in a JV with East Japan and Mitsui.
It didn't help them retain Northern.
 

Rhydgaled

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As more passengers in Pembrokeshire (267,338) now annually travel over the Whitland-Pembroke Dock line than on the Milford Haven line (239,372), according to the latest official figures quoted recently in the Tenby Observer, surely all direct services from Manchester Piccadilly should, in future, serve the Dock rather than the Milford branch where the 150s currently on the Dock line can be used instead?
The Pembroke & Tenby line may have more passengers, but how many of them are travelling long distances? A report by AECOM for SWWITCH in 2013 said that about half of the passengers using Pembroke Dock station were going no further than Narberth. The travelling from Pembroke Dock to Whitland via Tenby is not particularly direct, so the train isn't really time-competitive for longer journeys whereas Pembroke Dock to Tenby (the busiest station on the line) works rather well.

The Milford line is partly double track so it has more flexibility to accommodate late running.
I don't think it is; apart from from the passing loop at Haverfordwest station it is all single from Clarbeston Road to Milford Haven (unless you are counting Clarbeston Road to Whitland as part of the Milford Haven branch even though Fishguard trains also use that stretch of double track).

Personally though, I think no station in the Pembrokeshire/Whitland/Carmarthen area needs a through service to Manchester. An hourly through fast service from Carmarthen to Cardiff (very much preferably via the Swansea District Line), starting back from Milford Haven every two hours (and twice a day from Fishguard, meeting the ferries) would surfice for long-distance links. If that were to run anywhere beyond Cardiff, in a world with no silo-mentality (franchises), I'd say linking it into the Portsmouth service would be the most sensible option (mainly for the Bristol link). That aside, the three Pembrokeshire branches need a train every two hours to Swansea (so Milford would have a roughly hourly service, alternating between Cardiff and Swansea), ideally also a trip every two hours between Carmarthen and Swansea to bring that section up to every half hour.

cing the number of units needed so hopefully ensuring they can all be 3-cars. BUT, the Welsh Assembly would doubtless kick off about Llanelli, Carmarthen etc losing a direct link to "the City which is the centre of the known universe" :D
To be fair, Cardiff is probably quite an important destination for passengers from Carmarthen and Llanelli (unlike passengers from Holyhead). I do think the Manchester-Carmarthen services should become seperate Manchester-Swansea trains (which can have more coaches due to serving the buiser section of the route) and Carmarthen-Cardiff ones (that don't stop at Swansea).

Wrexhams a bit of a non event in terms of where folk from Newtown go to. In fact more folk go to Scotland. What folk want is better connections toward Manchester/ Crew at Shrewsbury the current 40 minute waits in both directions are very poor.
Are the W&B franchise's paths into Manchester and Birmingham fixed or could either the Manchester-Cardiff/Swansea or Aberystwyth-Birmingham paths be retimed (for example Swansea services leaving Manchester on the hour instead of xx:30) to sort out those connections?

I too would love to see Chester - Birmingham revert to the direct route via Stafford, Crewe - Liverpool, but neither are covered in the agreement with the Transport Secretary re: English services.
Maybe with HS2 coming the ICWC services to Holyhead could be diverted to run via Birmingham New Street (since it would probably be faster to change at Crewe for HS2 to Euston anyway, taking longer to reach Euston on the through train would matter less).

my benchmark for the replacement franchise is
"the end of 2 car DMU's running Wales and Border long distance services services into Manchester/Birmingham/ Cardiff'.
If there was to be a Cardiff - Milford Haven service calling only at Johnston, Haverfordwest, Whitland, Carmarthen, Llanelli and Port Talbot Parkway, do you think that would also need to be more than two coaches? And how about Carmarthen-Cardiff with the same calling pattern? I'm wondering whether that could be a use for the 2-car class 175 units if longer trains are ordered to replace them on the Manchesters.

Pacers living beyond 2021 (giving them a little leeway) = fail
Trams on the valley lines as far as Cardiff Queen Street = fail
Trams on the valley lines into Cardiff Central = probable fail but I'll wait and see what happens before judging too much
Full heavy rail electrification of the valley lines and an increase in capacity on those services = success
Full heavy rail electrification of the valley lines but the same capacity as now = better than the worse options so I'll still say a success even if the extra capacity is really needed!
Mine would be...

... actually, this is a bit tricky, some of what I'd want to say is probably a bit unrealistic. But, how about:
  • loss of through trains to/from Cardiff Central from any ValleyLines station = FAIL
  • trams on the ValleyLines network north of Taffs Well = FAIL
  • 2-car units on Manchester/Birmingham/Cardiff services = FAIL
  • removal of toilets on any route longer than about Cardiff Bay to Coryton = FAIL
  • new trains with suburban door arangment ('doors at thirds') ordered = FAIL (there are quite a few such trains coming off lease, use them instead and spend the money on...)
  • ... new trains with doors at the vehicle ends, good legroom and window alignment, for long-distance (semi-)fast services, = SUCCESS unless...
  • ... new short multiple units (4/5 coaches or less) ordered without Unit End Gangways FAIL
  • a plan for a significant capacity increase (including the ability for fast trains to overtake slow ones) on the GWML between Bridgend and Cardiff = SUCCESS
  • full electrification from Cardiff Central to Treherbert, Aberdare, Merthyr Tydfil, Rhymney, Ebbw Vale, Penarth, Barry Island and Bridgend (via Llantwit Major) by 2030 = SUCCESS (if electrification is not complete but work is underway to an extent that it can't be cut back that is also ok). Bonus points for getting the above in hand so that Maesteg-Cardiff can also be electrified
  • stations (except for some of the smaller ones on the Heart Of Wales) with less than a train every two hours = FAIL (I will accept a 3 hour gap in the Fishguard timetable to allow the September 2011 pattern of trains departing at 07:50, 09:50, etc. in the morning and 18:50, 20:50, etc. in the evening which probably works well for Fishguard-Carmarthen commuters)
  • 150s, Pacers, 153s or anything else with less legroom than some of the better seats in the refurbished ATW 158s used on any route longer than an hour = FAIL
  • anything with a suburban door layout regularly scheduled for use on a principal fast service = FAIL
  • more than through 3 trains per day (each way) between Holyhead and Cardiff = FAIL
  • more than 9 intermediate stops between Holyhead and Cardiff (exclusive) on any through service between those places = FAIL
 

Parallel

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It’s funny, I would have thought electrification of the Valley Lines would be one of the most demanded ambitions with the franchise. There are 6 tph between Pontypridd and Cardiff with the heads getting 2tph. On the other line there are 4tph to Bargoed and Rhymney doesn’t get more because of the shortage of stock! Wires and 3 car EMUs with toilets and gangways and SDO would be great for the Valleys. Then some services could have 6 cars but everything would have at least 3 cars!

I don’t mind the idea of trams, if they are supplementing the trains; rather than replacing them. I’d have no issues with trams running to railway stations from areas not connected by rail.

Also continue adding loops/redoubling the Ebbw Vale Line as that surely must go half-hourly at some point.
 

B&I

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It’s funny, I would have thought electrification of the Valley Lines would be one of the most demanded ambitions with the franchise. There are 6 tph between Pontypridd and Cardiff with the heads getting 2tph. On the other line there are 4tph to Bargoed and Rhymney doesn’t get more because of the shortage of stock! Wires and 3 car EMUs with toilets and gangways and SDO would be great for the Valleys. Then some services could have 6 cars but everything would have at least 3 cars!

I don’t mind the idea of trams, if they are supplementing the trains; rather than replacing them. I’d have no issues with trams running to railway stations from areas not connected by rail.

Also continue adding loops/redoubling the Ebbw Vale Line as that surely must go half-hourly at some point.


How feasible would partial or discontinuous electrification, using battery EMUs, be for any of the Valley Lines?
 

gareth950

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How feasible would partial or discontinuous electrification, using battery EMUs, be for any of the Valley Lines?
I seem to remember Vivarail proposing it a while ago to sell battery powered D-trains to Wales that ran on overhead wires as far as Pontypridd / Caerphilly and Barry.
 

B&I

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I seem to remember Vivarail proposing it a while ago to sell battery powered D-trains to Wales that ran on overhead wires as far as Pontypridd / Caerphilly and Barry.


I still wonder why D trains haven't been considered for some of the Valleys services, pending electrification. I assume the speed constraints wouldn't be much of a problem if they're kept off the main line.
 

northwichcat

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Something that may be of interest to some people

ORR said:
Arriva Trains Wales’ Track Access Contract expires on 14 October 2018. This is the date on which the current Wales & Borders franchise is due to end. In March 2017 Welsh Government asked Arriva Trains Wales to extend the duration of the contract. Network Rail is now able to support an extension to the Principal Change Date 2019 (8 December 2019). This will provide Arriva Trains Wales with contractual rights to submit Access Proposals to Network Rail for the December 2018 Timetable (Priority Date of 2 March 2018) and the May 2019 Timetable (Priority Date of 10 August 2018).

http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse documents/track access/1 current consultations/22-01-2018 - arriva trains wales - 85th sa - section 22 - closes monday 19 february 2018/atw 85th sa form p.pdf
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Well that bodes well for the bidding process

The ATW franchise agreement has provision for an extension up to 7 reporting periods (28 weeks) from 14 Oct 2018.
Anything more than that would need a negotiated Direct Award or similar.
WG has to give 3 months notice of the extension.
 

gareth950

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Over on the South Wales Metro thread you can read details about how Grayling said to a Westminster Transport select committee yesterday that "he doesn't expect all of the Valley lines to be fully electrified."
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
If I am not mistaken, I believe that some sections of the East Coast route from London Kings Cross to Edinburgh may be having the present overhead lines replaced so as to cope with the Azumas.

Would it be possible to reuse these wires for the Valley Lines network? After all, Cardiff Queen Street and points north are extremely unlikely to see Intercity type trains.
 
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