Huddersfield to East Croydon

[RochdalePioneers]

Okay folks, I think I've found another one of those confusing pay less to go further fares.

Next week I am travelling Thornaby - East Croydon on Business, and because I want a Pendolino ride back I will split tickets so that I am buying tickets to Hudds then a Huddersfield - East Croydon return.

Every tickets website I try gives an Anytime Return of £235 as the most expensive Std fare on offer. According to the routeing guide Huddersfield and Croydon Stations Group are both Roueting points so I don't have to look for which point to pass through. Maps allow travel via WCML, MML, ECML (via Wakefield/Leeds/York).

He're my confusion. Huddersfield - London is £228 Any Permitted, with a £263 via Manchester fare which clearly excludes WCML as a valid route on any permitted. No such via Manchester fare exists for Hudds - Croydon, therefore my reading of it is that route any permitted much include WCML. I know there are quite a few of these pay less to travel further fares - is this one of them?

Will Vigrin grippers understand the difference, or will they try and excess me? Print the maps and fares websites off? Even the Virgin Trains website offers WCML for £235....

 

[mathmo]

"Any permitted" means any permitted route, irrespective of other fares, so if via Manchester is valid in the Routeing Guide then via Manchester is permitted on an Any Permitted ticket (irrespective of whether a higher fare exists or not). Sounds stupid but that's the rules!

Huddersfield - East Croydon has valid routes LONDON, CS+BS+GM, and CS+BM. You want to go via London so look at Huddersfield - London routes, of which there are lots. Maps GM+MA allow travel from Huddersfield - London via Manchester and Stalybridge, so via Manchester does appear to be a permitted route, for both Huddersfield - London and Huddersfield - East Croydon.

If you want to try this, you'll probably need to go armed with the relevant pages and maps of the routeing guide (and I don't take any responsibility for it, though I'm fairly sure I'm right!).

 

[John @ home]

Will Vigrin grippers understand the difference, or will they try and excess me?

What can they excess you to? As you say, £235 is the most expensive standard fare on offer.

Print the maps and fares websites off?

Good idea.

John

 

[clagmonster]

Huddersfield group is a member of the Huddersfield group.
East Croydon is a member of the Croydon group.
Huddersfield group to Croydon group has routing permissions: London, CS+BS+GM, CS+GM.
Huddersfield group to London group has routing permissionsE+LY, EE+PS+SY, EE+PS+WK, EE+SH, EE+TP, EE+WK, EE+WY, ER+LY, ER+NL+SY, ER+NL+WK, ER+PS+SY ER+PS+WK,ER+SH, ER+TP, ER+WK, ER+WY, GM+MA, SY, SY+WK, SY+WY, WA+EE+WK, WA+EE+WY

Map MA covers the WCML to Manchester, therefore as far as I can see any permitted ticket from Huddersfield to both London and Croydon are valid via Manchester. I fail to see the point of the route Manchester fare. The saver route Manchester has exactly the same restrictions in and out of Euston as the route any permitted supersaver fare, although it is £1 cheaper. All other route Manchester fares are more expensive than their any permitted counterpart.

 

[John @ home]

"Any permitted" means any permitted route, irrespective of other fares, so if via Manchester is valid in the Routeing Guide then via Manchester is permitted on an Any Permitted ticket (irrespective of whether a higher fare exists or not). Sounds stupid but that's the rules!

Agreed.

HOW TO DETERMINE PERMITTED ROUTES
Where the timetable offers journey opportunities over a longer route which is not covered by a through train service, the alternative options are included in the Routeing Guide. This may offer the customer a choice of routes for the same overall journey. If a choice of routes is available and the fare for the journey is described as "Any Permitted" route or is unrouted, you are free to choose any of the routes listed in the Guide. Where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description. The Routeing Guide may have to be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description. Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.
http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/instructions.pdf]

John

 

[RochdalePioneers]

"Any permitted" means any permitted route, irrespective of other fares, so if via Manchester is valid in the Routeing Guide then via Manchester is permitted on an Any Permitted ticket (irrespective of whether a higher fare exists or not). Sounds stupid but that's the rules!

The existance of a more expensive ticket on one particular route means that route is not a permitted route on an Any Permitted ticket according to ATOC. For example Hudds - London Any Permitted at £228 cannot be valid via Manchester as there is a more expensive via Manchester ticket at £263.

in the case of East Croydon there is no other more expensive ticket than the Any permitted, despite the fact that this is £28 cheaper than a licket that only goes as far as London.

I'm going to give it a whirl next week and see what happens.

 

[tony_mac]

The existance of a more expensive ticket on one particular route means that route is not a permitted route on an Any Permitted ticket according to ATOC.

Are you sure about that that? The Routeing guide says

An "any permitted" ticket cannot be used for
travel on a route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a higher priced
route specific fare exists

 

[philjo]

Presumably the route Manchester fares are set by VT & the others set by NXEC.
If you have a railcard, then route Manchester would be better as VT do not have time restrictions for railcard holders using off-peak tickets (I think the stipulation is that the fare has to be set by VT), whereas NXEC make you wait until off-peak times.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Are you sure about that that? The Routeing guide says

"If the ticket is unrouted or has the
route “Any Permitted”, any of these routes may be used. There is also a routed fare
via Manchester. A ticketholder with a ticket routed “Manchester” must go via
Manchester and therefore only has a choice of those routes in the list that include
Manchester. This excludes MM. If the “Any Permitted” fare is less than the
“Manchester” routed fare, the ticketholder may not go via Manchester. If the “Any
Permitted” fare is more than the “Manchester” routed fare it may be used via
Manchester."

http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/nrg_detail.pdf

Thats from the part where they use Huddersfield - London as an example. It reads that the more expensive Route Manchester fare removes MM and the WCML from the Any Permitted fare.

Why I posted this thread initially is that although this rule doesn't affect me - there is no more expensive fare to East Croydon - the fact that one does exist for part of the route may cause Virgin grippers a problem. I want to check my facts before having the anticipated debate with them.

 

[glynn80]

Until RochdalePioneers posted the link to the ATOC examples section, I did not agree with what he was posting but after reading the example he quoted, I am inclined to view it with a little bit more credibility.

However, also quoted within the Routeing Guide in addition to what RochdalePioneers has posted is the following within Section A. It states that the ruling within the example only relates to those routes which are "not listed" within the routeing guide, obviously not the case with the Huddersfield to East Croydon flow.

You may only use all the permitted routes if the fare is unrouted or the route is described as "any permitted". An "any permitted" ticket cannot be used for travel on a route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a higher priced route specific fare exists. It can be used on any route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a lower priced route specific fare exists.

If we now take an example such as Manchester Stns to London Terminals. Again there are two fares, Route Chesterfield and Route Any Permitted. The interesting scenario here is that some Any Permitted fares from Manchester Stns to London Terminals are priced higher than the equivalent Route Chesterfield fares and some are priced lower.

rte Any Permitted
FOS- 193.50
FOR- 387.00
SOS- 123.50
SOR- 247.00
SVS- 65.10
SVR- 66.10

rte CHESTERFIELD
FOS- 166.00
FOR- 292.00
SOS- 122.50
SOR- 211.50
SVS- 84.00
SVR- 85.00
SSS- 63.80
SSR- 64.80

So the Any Permitted First and Standard Anytime fares are higher in price than the Route Chesterfield and thus according to ATOC those tickets are valid via Chesterfield. However the Any Permitted Off Peak fares are lower in price and thus again according to ATOC those tickets are not valid via Chesterfield.

Equally I am wondering, can we decude from the above fares that the Route Chesterfield Off Peak fares are valid not only via Chesterfield but also via the WCML. The routeing guide seems to only makes provisions for Any Permitted fares where a lower route specific fare occurs not the flipside of this scenario. Logic dictates that the routeing guide would allow passengers using the higher priced Route Chesterfield Off Peak fares via the WCML for the pure fact an excess on these tickets would be £0.00, but as well all know the routeing guide does not work logically.

 

[mathmo]

"If the ticket is unrouted or has the
route “Any Permitted”, any of these routes may be used. There is also a routed fare
via Manchester. A ticketholder with a ticket routed “Manchester” must go via
Manchester and therefore only has a choice of those routes in the list that include
Manchester. This excludes MM. If the “Any Permitted” fare is less than the
“Manchester” routed fare, the ticketholder may not go via Manchester. If the “Any
Permitted” fare is more than the “Manchester” routed fare it may be used via
Manchester."

http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/nrg_detail.pdf

Thats from the part where they use Huddersfield - London as an example. It reads that the more expensive Route Manchester fare removes MM and the WCML from the Any Permitted fare.

Very interesting indeed - this contradicts various other things I have seen!

Why I posted this thread initially is that although this rule doesn't affect me - there is no more expensive fare to East Croydon - the fact that one does exist for part of the route may cause Virgin grippers a problem. I want to check my facts before having the anticipated debate with them.

They can't say it's invalid for that reason - there's absolutely no way you can check every possible combination of fares! Huddersfield - London might have this fare but what about Huddersfield - Stoke-on-Trent or Manchester - East Croydon etc? If the ticket is "Any Permitted" and that is the only available routing for the ticket then it's clear you can take any route in the Routeing Guide, though of course you may need to argue your case. The Huddersfield - London is a different matter but doesn't affect this situation.

 

[tony_mac]

Well, I take the following to mean it only applies to a route that isn't normally a permitted route.

An "any permitted" ticket cannot be used for travel on a route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a higher priced route specific fare exists.

As the following part

It can be used on any route not listed in the
Routeing Guide for which a lower priced route specific fare exists.

would be completely meaningless if the 'not listed' was omitted.

The quote from the examples is also contradicted by

If a choice of routes is available and the fare for the
journey is described as "Any Permitted" route or is unrouted, you are free to choose any of the routes listed in the Guide.

And NRES also seems to think that 'Any Permitted' is 'Any Permitted' even if a higher-price ticket exists.

The examples, generally, seem to be woefully out of date, and I find it difficult to take that section seriously.
BTW, can anyone make sense of the 'Stratford upon Avon to Solihull' example?

 

[yorkie]

Why I posted this thread initially is that although this rule doesn't affect me - there is no more expensive fare to East Croydon - the fact that one does exist for part of the route may cause Virgin grippers a problem. I want to check my facts before having the anticipated debate with them.

Your journey is from Huddersfield to East Croydon, so intermediate journeys are irrelevant whether they are Tamworth to Lichfield, or Leeds to Manchester, London to Croydon, those journeys are completely separate and the rules for such tickets are not relevant to your ticket.

If anyone claims it's valid, I'd refuse to pay and insist on an unpaid fare notice (which you can appeal), and get the name of the guard so that they can be given better training.

Logic dictates that the routeing guide would allow passengers using the higher priced Route Chesterfield Off Peak fares via the WCML for the pure fact an excess on these tickets would be £0.00, but as well all know the routeing guide does not work logically.

yes they are because it's a cheaper route. However guards would, at first glance think it's invalid and have to compare fares to realise it is valid. If they want to faff about with a Zero excess, they can if they want, if the machine will let them!

 

[glynn80]

yes they are because it's a cheaper route. However guards would, at first glance think it's invalid and have to compare fares to realise it is valid. If they want to faff about with a Zero excess, they can if they want, if the machine will let them!

In practice the ticket is of course valid because of the Zero excess issue. The routeing guide explicitly states the validity for Any Permitted flows and thus for those customers, they do not need to purchase an additional excess. But for customers with route specific tickets, the routeing guide does not explicitly state this and thus they are obliged it seems to obtain the excess. That was the issue I was trying to raise.

 

[tony_mac]

Where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description. The Routeing Guide may have to be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description. Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.

I think that's about as explicit as the routeing guide gets, and it's probably contradicted somewhere else as well