Wales and Borders Franchise - what would you do?

[Gareth Marston]

I can never work out why that is - if the redoubling between Chester and Wrexham had been done properly, would it be faster?

While faster services are always better, the advantage of going via Wrexham would be more links between Liverpool (and, in this case, its airport as well) and relatively close, but (in public transport terms) poorly-connected places. Would even a fairly swift service via the Marches be much quicker than changing at New Street ? Crewe is one of the few places Liverpool does currently have good links to.

Even if the Halton Curve service is a Class 2 train running to Wrexham would deliver the most benefits. (2 tph Wrexham to Chester for instance).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I can never work out why that is - if the redoubling between Chester and Wrexham had been done properly, would it be faster?

Shrewsbury-Liverpool via Chester and Birkenhead is 60 rail miles, and very slow on Merseyrail - 1h50m if you get a good connection at Chester.
Via Crewe it's 67 miles but mostly on fast track, maybe 1h20m with a good connection at Crewe.
Via Chester and Runcorn it will be 70 miles, and no faster than the Merseyrail route.
The Halton Curve service looks like being another local stopper too.

So far, the improvements between Shrewsbury and Chester (line speed increase to Gobowen, and redoubling of 5 miles Rossett-Saltney) have not been reflected in timetables, though it has improved punctuality somewhat.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Shrewsbury-Liverpool via Chester and Birkenhead is 60 rail miles, and very slow on Merseyrail - 1h50m if you get a good connection at Chester.
Via Crewe it's 67 miles but mostly on fast track, maybe 1h20m with a good connection at Crewe.
Via Chester and Runcorn it will be 70 miles, and no faster than the Merseyrail route.
The Halton Curve service looks like being another local stopper too.

So far, the improvements between Shrewsbury and Chester (line speed increase to Gobowen, and redoubling of 5 miles Rossett-Saltney) have not been reflected in timetables, though it has improved punctuality somewhat.

I would hazard a guess that an hourly Liverpool to Wrexham Class 2 Stopper via Halton Curve is relatively low hanging fruit and gives you the most bang for your bucks so to speak. Of course if this operated by ATW 150/2's and you got 3 units on the Bidston line and Conwy Valley your in the realms where you need some maintenance facility in North Wales......

 

[B&I]

I would hazard a guess that an hourly Liverpool to Wrexham Class 2 Stopper via Halton Curve is relatively low hanging fruit and gives you the most bang for your bucks so to speak. Of course if this operated by ATW 150/2's and you got 3 units on the Bidston line and Conwy Valley your in the realms where you need some maintenance facility in North Wales......

Someone really needs to work out what the Halton Curve is for. Is it to enable connections from Liverpool and Chester to South Wales, in which case trains would be expected to skip local stations between Liverpool and Chester, or is it to connect Liverpool generally to the south bank of the Mersey, and the south Liverpool suburbs and the airport to Chester, in which case maximum stops would be desirable?

I worry that we're going to end up with some bodge service to Chester only, stopping at enough places to make it deadly slow, but not enough to provide a comprehensive local service. The answer really needs to be separate local and long-distance services, with fast services carrying on via Crewe or (in an ideal world with a properly upgraded track) via Wrexham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt it's got anything to do with South Wales. Liverpool to North Wales and vice versa has substantial demand. A service to Llandudno portion worked with that from Manchester would probably do the job well if the paths fit.

 

[craigybagel]

I would hazard a guess that an hourly Liverpool to Wrexham Class 2 Stopper via Halton Curve is relatively low hanging fruit and gives you the most bang for your bucks so to speak. Of course if this operated by ATW 150/2's and you got 3 units on the Bidston line and Conwy Valley your in the realms where you need some maintenance facility in North Wales......

No need, they already have Crewe for that.

 

[Gareth Marston]

No need, they already have Crewe for that.

Ho much actually gets done there though in terms of day to day maintenance?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ho much actually gets done there though in terms of day to day maintenance?

Arriva Traincare at Crewe look after a wide variety of stock for Arriva and other TOCs, including LHCS.
They also have a modification/upgrade capability and seem a very flexible shop.
What happens to Chester depot is also important, they are tied to 175s at the moment (operated by Alstom).
Which reminds me that there were 2 individual 175 driving cars parked out of use at Chester on Monday, from different sets.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Arriva Traincare at Crewe look after a wide variety of stock for Arriva and other TOCs, including LHCS.
They also have a modification/upgrade capability and seem a very flexible shop.
What happens to Chester depot is also important, they are tied to 175s at the moment (operated by Alstom).
Which reminds me that there were 2 individual 175 driving cars parked out of use at Chester on Monday, from different sets.

Could they say handle a sub fleet of 7 or 8 150/2 ;s on a day to day basis without needing to cycle them them back to Canton?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Sorry for the poor quality..... these will be the two you mean. They have been there over a month now.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Could they say handle a sub fleet of 7 or 8 150/2 ;s on a day to day basis without needing to cycle them them back to Canton?

I've never quite worked out where the current Sprinters go overnight in the north, and whether they get light work at the Alstom depot or at Crewe.
Some get parked up in bay platforms at Chester.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Sorry for the poor quality..... these will be the two you mean. They have been there over a month now.

Yes, they're the ones.
175 001 was one, and maybe 175 109 the other.
Meanwhile, a 150 on Llandudno-Cardiff!

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I've never quite worked out where the current Sprinters go overnight in the north, and whether they get light work at the Alstom depot or at Crewe.
Some get parked up in bay platforms at Chester.

The Conwy Valley 150 set finishes it's valley trip at Llandudno then goes to Crewe as the 21.45 where it stays until approx. 4.00am and comes back and does it all again.

 

[craigybagel]

Ho much actually gets done there though in terms of day to day maintenance?

Arriva Traincare at Crewe look after a wide variety of stock for Arriva and other TOCs, including LHCS.
They also have a modification/upgrade capability and seem a very flexible shop.
What happens to Chester depot is also important, they are tied to 175s at the moment (operated by Alstom).

Could they say handle a sub fleet of 7 or 8 150/2 ;s on a day to day basis without needing to cycle them them back to Canton?

Fuelling, tire turning, and various bits of light and heavy maintenance. There is also a facility to dump toilet tanks which no doubt will be a requirement in the near future. The 150s serving the north of the network are normally up there for several days at a time and Crewe is the only maintenance depot they see in this time.

I've never quite worked out where the current Sprinters go overnight in the north, and whether they get light work at the Alstom depot or at Crewe.
Some get parked up in bay platforms at Chester.

The Chester sprinter units normally just get stabled and cleaned there. I believe there is provision for them to be fueled on the Alsthom depot if required but normally they can get that done at Crewe or Holyhead - they shouldn't spend more then one night at a time at Chester

 

[B&I]

I doubt it's got anything to do with South Wales. Liverpool to North Wales and vice versa has substantial demand. A service to Llandudno portion worked with that from Manchester would probably do the job well if the paths fit.

No reason not to have both.

 

[PHILIPE]

Yes, they're the ones.
175 001 was one, and maybe 175 109 the other.
Meanwhile, a 150 on Llandudno-Cardiff!

1 tree collision damage and the other fire damage to their partners

 

[PHILIPE]

I've never quite worked out where the current Sprinters go overnight in the north, and whether they get light work at the Alstom depot or at Crewe.
Some get parked up in bay platforms at Chester.

1 x Conwy Valley
2 x Wrexham Bidston
1 x Crewe/Chester locals
They usually keep a spare up there

 

[sw1ller]

Yes, they're the ones.
175 001 was one, and maybe 175 109 the other.
Meanwhile, a 150 on Llandudno-Cardiff!

The two units stabled are the 79 cars (C) of the complete train. By your comment I assume you’d like them connected and making up a complete train but unfortunately this is impossible. There is only one compressor per 175 and it’s in the 50 (A) car so there would be no means to build up air for the train. Also, I had a walk round them today and the one on the right (I think it was 101) has had bits ripped off for spare parts.

 

[6Gman]

No reason not to have both.

Apart from cost.

And paths.

 

[PHILIPE]

The two units stabled are the 79 cars (C) of the complete train. By your comment I assume you’d like them connected and making up a complete train but unfortunately this is impossible. There is only one compressor per 175 and it’s in the 50 (A) car so there would be no means to build up air for the train. Also, I had a walk round them today and the one on the right (I think it was 101) has had bits ripped off for spare parts.

ATW have already got some hybrid formations of 175s where others have been damaged and they have put the sound vehicles to good use

 

[B&I]

Apart from cost.

And paths.

How much more would it cost to have a Liverpool-South Wales service? People on here spend their lives moaning about what a waste of space the Holyhead-Cardiff is. Fine, re-route it to a more sensible destination.

Where is there a shortage of paths which would prevent a Liverpool-South Wales service?

 

[sw1ller]

ATW have already got some hybrid formations of 175s where others have been damaged and they have put the sound vehicles to good use

Yes, but they are made up of two different cars from two different units. Two 79 cars can’t be connected for the reason I said above.

 

[gareth950]

So ATW are effectively 2 x 175s (are these 2 × 2 car or 2 x 3 car trains?) and a 150 down long term.
Meanwhile 150s are replacing said 175s on the Marches and short formed Pacers are turning up on 150 diagrams in the South.
Can ATW hire in LHCS to replace the long term out of use 175s?

 

[sw1ller]

So ATW are effectively 2 x 175s (are these 2 × 2 car or 2 x 3 car trains?) and a 150 down long term.
Meanwhile 150s are replacing said 175s on the Marches and short formed Pacers are turning up on 150 diagrams in the South.
Can ATW hire in LHCS to replace the long term out of use 175s?

1751xx are 3 car
1750xx are 2 car

I can confirm it’s 109 & 101 in the sidings so they are 2x3 car units down. I know there is a 3 car 150 knocking around South Wales somewhere as the other half of the 150 is damaged but I don’t know the numbers.

Edit *

It was a fair few hours ago I was there and now I’m not sure if it was 101 or 001. It was 100% 109 though.

 

[gareth950]

1751xx are 3 car
1750xx are 2 car

I can confirm it’s 109 & 101 in the sidings so they are 2x3 car units down. I know there is a 3 car 150 knocking around South Wales somewhere as the other half of the 150 is damaged but I don’t know the numbers.

The 3 car 150 has been showing up a lot on the Marches recently I gather.

 

[PHILIPE]

The story of the 3 Car 150 is here:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/llanbradach-03-09-passengers-injured-when-train-strikes-tree.153373/page-2

Wanders at weekend but Ebbw Vales during week.

 

[PHILIPE]

Yes, but they are made up of two different cars from two different units. Two 79 cars can’t be connected for the reason I said above.

I haven't suggested trying to couple two 79 Cars together. I've lost track of what is where but there was some swapping around involving other 175s

 

[PHILIPE]

So ATW are effectively 2 x 175s (are these 2 × 2 car or 2 x 3 car trains?) and a 150 down long term.
Meanwhile 150s are replacing said 175s on the Marches and short formed Pacers are turning up on 150 diagrams in the South.
Can ATW hire in LHCS to replace the long term out of use 175s?

The answer to the LHCS is No. A thing of the past and whose going to pay for it, ATW won't, especially with higher Track Access charges.

 

[6Gman]

Bustitute the Conwy Valley?

Would that release a 150?

(Realise it does other moves early and late.)




Steps back to avoid the explosion.

 

[PHILIPE]

Bustitute the Conwy Valley?

Would that release a 150?

(Realise it does other moves early and late.)




Steps back to avoid the explosion.

It's happened on several days already.