Virgin East Coast Twitter

[MG11]

If you do not doubt that then why are you arguing with us? Bizarre.

Starmill said that I am making this problem up, the problem arose when un-documented permission was given, which resulted in the altercation and the subsequent Twitter spat, it could have been more serious if the Guard had been a Revenue Protection Officer, how would the defendant prove this permission in court then? She would have nothing to back it up, unless the staff member wanted to put their job on the line.

 

[yorkie]

I am pretty sure I had sandwiches only on 2nd January 2016?

The 2016 date was the 4th and as it happens the same dispute happened:

https://twitter.com/annabhoy/status/683975224606507008

Delayin travel Glgw-Lndn until tmorw(as advisd).Travelling on own with child,puppy,suitcases etc.Is it poss to book seats?

...Is there an upgrade option available?

You can upgrade to First Class for £25 yes. ^MS

Then the next day:

Was just told I wasn't allowed upgrade and was turfed out of 1st class even though was told on here that I could.

We were sittin in unreserved seats.He said that £25 upgrade was not available today at all&you guys shouldn't have said it.

So the Guard did not dispute that staff representing the company had said the upgrade was available, yet still refused to honour it.[

 

[yorkie]

Starmill said that I am making this problem up, the problem arose when un-documented permission was given,

"un-documented permission"? is this a wind-up? have you read the posts above?

which resulted in the altercation

The poor outcome of the altercation was due to the actions and behaviour of the Guard. Are you suggesting otherwise?

and the subsequent Twitter spat

The poor outcome of the twitter spat was due to the actions and behaviour of the Twitter staff. Are you suggesting otherwise?

it could have been more serious if the Guard had been a Revenue Protection Officer

What are you are suggesting?

how would the defendant prove this permission in court then? She would have nothing to back it up, unless the staff member wanted to put their job on the line.

Ridiculous suggestion. It would have been trivial to prove this in court. You yourself even asked the Twitter staff if the upgrade was available and they said yes! Witness statements could be taken, from other passengers and from the ticket office staff. Also there is the statement on the website, and the fact it was a Bank Holiday when and where the passenger boarded the train.

You can keep digging if you like, but this is becoming tiresome. You either have not read, or have not understood, the posts above.

 

[MG11]

"un-documented permission"? is this a wind-up? have you read the posts above?

The poor outcome of the altercation was due to the actions and behaviour of the Guard. Are you suggesting otherwise?

The poor outcome of the twitter spat was due to the actions and behaviour of the Twitter staff. Are you suggesting otherwise?

What are you are suggesting?

Ridiculous suggestion. It would have been trivial to prove this in court. You yourself even asked the Twitter staff if the upgrade was available and they said yes! Witness statements could be taken, from other passengers and from the ticket office staff. Also there is the statement on the website, and the fact it was a Bank Holiday when and where the passenger boarded the train.

You can keep digging if you like, but this is becoming tiresome. You either have not read, or have not understood, the posts above.

Had the defendant been given a leaflet, or similar to advertise that the upgrade is allowed, do you think the Guard would have still refused it? If I had a Derbyshire Wayfarer ticket and the staff onboard believed it wasn't valid, and I produced the official Derbyshire Wayfarer leaflet which said it was valid, then it is unlikely further action would have been taken. That is what I am trying to say, it is an issue that many have mentioned on here over the time I've been here.

 

[GusB]

Had the defendant been given a leaflet, or similar to advertise that the upgrade is allowed, do you think the Guard would have still refused it? If I had a Derbyshire Wayfarer ticket and the staff onboard believed it wasn't valid, and I produced the official Derbyshire Wayfarer leaflet which said it was valid, then it is unlikely further action would have been taken. That is what I am trying to say, it is an issue that many have mentioned on here over the time I've been here.

Surely production of the relevant page on the company's website is equivalent to producing a paper leaflet?

 

[MG11]

Surely production of the relevant page on the company's website is equivalent to producing a paper leaflet?

It is but the website doesn't specify if it still applies on Scottish only bank holidays, she was just heeding the advice of the dispatcher. The first piece of hard evidence we have, is the confirmation from the Twitter team, where I specifically asked about this.

 

[GusB]

Either way, it's not the customer's fault if the company's website isn't clear enough about what a "bank holiday" actually is. If there was any doubt, the first thing that the TM/guard should have done was to consult with someone else higher up the chain to clarify the situation, rather than be bloody-minded about it. I work in customer services (I deal with complaints, for my sins) and while the customer is often wrong, it's better to give them the benefit of the doubt until we can prove otherwise. Whether or not the customer was right in this case, it was still a major fail for VTEC in the way they handled this.

 

[Mojo]

I am pretty sure I had sandwiches only on 2nd January 2016? And I remember a stream of complaints on twitter that the full service was not being provided. Perhaps that was a different date though.

2nd January 2016 was a Saturday and 2nd January 2017 would have been a bank holiday to substitute for New Year’s Day as 1st January 2017 was on a Sunday. I think what Alter Ego meant was that a full service is provided on 2nd January, unless a reduced service would normally be provided on account of it being a bank holiday or a weekend.

But the issue yorkie raises is exactly the same as being discussed here. 4th January 2016 would have been a substitute bank holiday in Scotland as 2nd January 2016 was a Saturday, and as discovered here, East Coast don’t consider that to be a bank holiday so don’t sell the cheap upgrades.

 

[AlterEgo]

I am pretty sure I had sandwiches only on 2nd January 2016? And I remember a stream of complaints on twitter that the full service was not being provided. Perhaps that was a different date though

Well, Virgin EC advertise (see, back with the advertising...) that the “special” menu ended on 1st January. The 2nd was a normal day as far as they were concerned.

If you only got a weekend offer then you should complain, as it was a weekday and the weekday menu would apply.

EDIT: Didn't spot the year! Disregard.

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/the-east-coast-experience/first-class/festive-menu/

We could go back and discuss whether the 2nd was a bank holiday again!

Couldn’t find any complaints about the First Class service on the 2nd on Twitter search.

Here’s Virgin telling someone that no, they can’t upgrade for £25 on the 2nd:

https://twitter.com/smokeandbeth/status/948002881499738112?ref_src=twcamp^share|twsrc^ios|twgr^com.apple.UIKit.activity.Message

Here’s Virgin saying they actually don’t know what the exact menu is on the 2nd (remember it’s not advertised as a reduced service!):

https://twitter.com/becca9492/status/947964748775280640?ref_src=twcamp^share|twsrc^ios|twgr^com.apple.UIKit.activity.Message

Seatfrog tweeted that they’d be selling bid upgrades again as of the 2nd - they do not run this offer on behalf of VTEC on weekends or bank holidays, when the fixed price upgrades are available. Further evidence of my assertion that 2nd January wasn’t a “Bank Holiday” as far as VTEC’s service or upgrades were concerned.

https://twitter.com/seatfrog/status/947829765779492864?ref_src=twcamp^share|twsrc^ios|twgr^com.apple.UIKit.activity.Message

And here’s Virgin saying, to one of the affected customers no less, on 2nd January, that “we’re back to our usual weekday service today so the weekend upgrade isn’t available”

https://twitter.com/virgin_trainsec/status/948112984328560640?ref_src=twcamp^share|twsrc^ios|twgr^com.apple.UIKit.activity.Message


It’s all round a bad, bad show.

But I am right about the 2nd January. Wasn’t a bank holiday as far as Virgin policy goes, they weren’t selling weekend upgrades. Has been the case since forever.

I don’t believe any amount of pressure will force them into doing the simple thing and just listing the dates of bank holidays the Upgrade applies to over the course of the year. Sigh.

 

[AlterEgo]

Are you on a deliberate wind-up or can you not help it?

The ticket office also said she could upgrade and you also asked on Twitter and they said it was available. A quick check of the website combined with a little knowledge of consumer law and common sense enables anyone to ascertain it was valid. (If it is unclear, then the interpretation that is most favourable to the customer is that which should prevail under consumer law)

There is no requirement to obtain a note in writing. It is unclear what message you are trying to get across here. "the Guard may have shown a little mercy" would be better worded as "carried out his job correctly".

As far as backing up her story goes, the passenger was actually with a “bunch of people” in the same carriage with the same issue, it turns out, so it does seem very likely she was told the wrong info by a member of staff at the station as she claims. It was definitely more than one person reporting the same issue.

As far as consumer law goes, the guard is actually not bound to sell the Upgrade (and I agree with you that certainly Virgin appear to advertise it as being available!). You don’t have to sell something at the advertised price. The customer has not paid for the upgrade, so this post on MSE might be helpful:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3277262

Now, if the customer had actually paid for the upgrade, let’s say online or at the station, the guard then has no right whatsoever in claiming it isn’t valid. He cannot chuck her out and he cannot charge her any more money, and if he does then Virgin are in very hot water.

As it stands, I think the best course of action is to contact Trading Standards Scotland about the bad advertising.

 

[AlterEgo]

Either way, it's not the customer's fault if the company's website isn't clear enough about what a "bank holiday" actually is. If there was any doubt, the first thing that the TM/guard should have done was to consult with someone else higher up the chain to clarify the situation, rather than be bloody-minded about it. I work in customer services (I deal with complaints, for my sins) and while the customer is often wrong, it's better to give them the benefit of the doubt until we can prove otherwise. Whether or not the customer was right in this case, it was still a major fail for VTEC in the way they handled this.

This is sensible. Indeed, the upgrade was not for sale. The guard might have been better off contacting Control, or his line manager if they were on duty. Ultimately he shouldn’t be selling the Weekend Upgrade and he’d probably get into bother for doing so unilaterally (I bet *he* got an internal brief about it!).

 

[FQTV]

As far as backing up her story goes, the passenger was actually with a “bunch of people” in the same carriage with the same issue, it turns out, so it does seem very likely she was told the wrong info by a member of staff at the station as she claims. It was definitely more than one person reporting the same issue.

As far as consumer law goes, the guard is actually not bound to sell the Upgrade (and I agree with you that certainly Virgin appear to advertise it as being available!). You don’t have to sell something at the advertised price. The customer has not paid for the upgrade, so this post on MSE might be helpful:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3277262

Now, if the customer had actually paid for the upgrade, let’s say online or at the station, the guard then has no right whatsoever in claiming it isn’t valid. He cannot chuck her out and he cannot charge her any more money, and if he does then Virgin are in very hot water.

As it stands, I think the best course of action is to contact Trading Standards Scotland about the bad advertising.

Depending on the specific circumstances prevailing, the advice in that MSE thread may well not apply.

For example, if the passenger held a non-Advance Standard Class ticket, and boarded a service which was full in Standard Class on the basis of advice given by employees of the company that they could upgrade for a price to seats which were available in First, and then was refused that upgrade by another employee of the company for that price, it would not be analogous to a shop ultimately declining to sell a product prior to the exchange of payment (the consideration).

The key is that the (potential) customer should not be placed in a disadvantageous situation compared to that which they were in, prior to an offer being made.

If the customer is in anyway encouraged to pay a higher price, then this can move into the realms of so-called 'bait and switch'.

In the upgrade situation being discussed here, if the on-board upgrade was refused prior to the train doors being closed, and the passenger (holding a non-Advance ticket) was allowed to disembark and join a later service with available seats, then it's likely that a court would consider that the customer had been minorly inconvenienced, but not put at a material disadvantage.

On the basis of what we may be able to infer from the reporting of this situation (disregarding for a moment the 'honey' angle) if the train had departed, and there were no available seats in Standard, and the customer could not be placed back in their original situation, then the customer might well be considered to have been put at a material disadvantage.

In this case, it may not necessarily be the case that any consideration may need to have been made before the supplier could find them on the wrong side of the law.

 

[Kite159]

I am pretty sure I had sandwiches only on 2nd January 2016? And I remember a stream of complaints on twitter that the full service was not being provided. Perhaps that was a different date though.

2nd Jan 16 was a Saturday
2/1/17 was a bank holiday in lieu of the 1st falling on a Sunday.

----

Sounds like a large breakdown in communication between what VTEC class as their bank holidays to the different bank holidays in Scotland. Easiest way to solve that issue is getting rid of doing weekend first on bank holidays

 

[Starmill]

the problem arose when un-documented permission was given, which resulted in the altercation and the subsequent Twitter spat, it could have been more serious if the Guard had been a Revenue Protection Officer

I think you mean: "The problem arose because the company acted inconsistently and demonstrated poor standards of service. Although the guard made a serious error, it could have been more serious if another representative of the company had made an even more serious error by reporting the customer for prosecution".

 

[Starmill]

how a defendent would prove

how would the defendant prove this permission

Had the defendant been given a leaflet

A defendant is someone who has been accused of a crime. It seems you are the only person using these terms. Are you accusing this person of a crime?

 

[MG11]

A defendant is someone who has been accused of a crime. It seems you are the only person using these terms. Are you accusing this person of a crime?

Can you show where I accused this person of a crime? I thought not.

 

[Domh245]

Can you show where I accused this person of a crime? I thought not.

You keep on referring to a defendant - the definition of which is "an individual, company, or institution sued or accused in a court of law." No outright accusation, but it is implicit.

 

[Starmill]

Can you show where I accused this person of a crime? I thought not.

It was a simple question. If the answer is no, I assume you will therefore withdraw all such uses of this term then?

 

[MG11]

It was a simple question. If the answer is no, I assume you will therefore withdraw all such uses of this term then?

This person has not committed a crime, as the Twitter team have comfirmed. Until that point, with no documented evidence of permission to enter First Class, the person cam under questioning by the Guard and forum members, therefore, they were the "defendant".

 

[Starmill]

This person has not committed a crime, as the Twitter team have comfirmed. Until that point, with no documented evidence of permission to enter First Class, the person cam under questioning by the Guard and forum members, therefore, they were the "defendant".

As far as I can see this is just something that you have fabricated yourself. Nobody else is accusing them, so this person cannot be a defendant unless you allege they've committed a crime:

defendant

a person in a law case who is accused of having done something illegal

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/defendant

This is particularly interesting given your claims that:

I don't claim to know everything Yorkie, just a great deal regarding Rev Pro.

and

I know more than you, I have been shortlisted out of 80 applicants for the role of Revenue Protection Officer and spoken with Revenue Protection managers in great detail!!

 

[MG11]

As far as I can see this is just something that you have fabricated yourself. Nobody else is accusing them, so this person cannot be a defendant unless you allege they've committed a crime:



https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/defendant

This is particularly interesting given your claims that:



and

Did the Guard not question why they were travelling in First Class on an STD? We forum members not debating whether or not the upgrade was applicable on this date? It is un-known whether the CSO on the platform gave verbal permission or if it was a fabrication, we only have the individual's word for it.

 

[yorkie]

Did the Guard not question why they were travelling in First Class on an STD? '

The customer wanted to upgrade. VTEC allow First Class upgrades on board the train.

We forum members not debating whether or not the upgrade was applicable on this date?

I don't understand your question. You even asked VTEC if the upgrade was valid and they said it was.

It is un-known whether the CSO on the platform gave verbal permission or if it was a fabrication,

It is not unknown. The customer was advised Weekend First was available. No-one appears to be denying that (except you?)

we only have the individual's word for it.

But that's good enough in this case. There were many witnesses, and you even asked the company yourself and were old the same thing!

 

[IanXC]

I think you mean: "The problem arose because the company acted inconsistently and demonstrated poor standards of service. Although the guard made a serious error, it could have been more serious if another representative of the company had made an even more serious error by reporting the customer for prosecution".

Absolutely agree that the company acted inconsistently and demonstrated poor standards of service, but I do not agree that a guard can be considered to have "made a serious error" by following the instruction they have been given. Its a corporate issue rather than being down to one member of frontline staff.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Given the operator is an operator based in England, with the majority of the route running through England, they should not have the weekend upgrade, as the 2nd, which was a Tuesday, was not a bank holiday.

 

[yorkie]

Given the operator is an operator based in England, with the majority of the route running through England, they should not have the weekend upgrade, as the 2nd, which was a Tuesday, was not a bank holiday.

Why not?

If you make a journey such as Edinburgh to Aberdeen, it would be very odd if weekend first was available on one operator but not another.

There is going to be virtually zero demand for Edinburgh to London business travel on that date, but plenty of demand for leisure travel with many trains being full & standing in Standard class.

It makes no sense from a business perspective to sent a passenger boarding at Edinburgh a weekend first upgrade.

 

[Starmill]

Absolutely agree that the company acted inconsistently and demonstrated poor standards of service, but I do not agree that a guard can be considered to have "made a serious error" by following the instruction they have been given. Its a corporate issue rather than being down to one member of frontline staff.

Yes that is true it could have been that they were in fact doing precisely what they were told to.

It only makes the situation all the more disappointing.

 

[Butts]

Given the operator is an operator based in England, with the majority of the route running through England, they should not have the weekend upgrade, as the 2nd, which was a Tuesday, was not a bank holiday.

Stagecoach are based in Perth and registered as a Company in Scotland !!!

 

[gavin]

VTEC have 3 on twitter today ^SH ^JC & ^TB

Still no sign of ^MS since last Tuesday

 

[AlterEgo]

VTEC have 3 on twitter today ^SH ^JC & ^TB

Still no sign of ^MS since last Tuesday

I hope he and some of the other agents are being retrained. I have been critical but I’d hate to think he was in some way suspended or take off front line duty.

 

[whhistle]

Are you suggesting the 2nd of January in Scotland from where the customer caught the train is not a bank holiday?

Perhaps.
But perhaps it isn't recognised by Virgin EC as a bank holiday.
Yes, some departments think it was recognised, but looking at things now, the majority of what can be relied upon (IE, tangible evidence) show East Coast didn't consider it to be a bank holiday.

Whether a journey was made wholly in Scotland is a separate issue.

Thus, the 13 pages of this thread - I suspect at least half are null and void knowing this information.