Idea: Inner suburban trains - station dwell times

[159]

While travelling on inner suburban trains in both London and Paris, one of the stark differences is how little time French trains lose at stations.
During this holiday in France, I timed station dwell times on the Transilien L line and K line. On average, they were 18 seconds shorter than on the Southern and South Western suburban train lines (Waterloo and Victoria to e.g. Dorking, Surbiton, Streatham Hill). Improving of station dwell times on UK trains could definitely reduce journey times and allow more trains per hour during peak.
More often than not, in and around London, at least 3-5 seconds pass before the doors are released when arriving at the stop, and dwell times are way longer than needed even if the train is cleared for departure, because of the lengthy auditory tones and slow door closing. Also, there is often quite a long pause (~6 seconds) after the doors are closed before the train gets moving (exception : class 700 or 707).
In France, the doors on every suburban train can be opened about 2 seconds before the train comes to a standstill. It is perfectly safe in my view, is it possible to integrate this feature onto UK suburban trains?

 

[Bantamzen]

While travelling on inner suburban trains in both London and Paris, one of the stark differences is how little time French trains lose at stations.
During this holiday in France, I timed station dwell times on the Transilien L line and K line. On average, they were 18 seconds shorter than on the Southern and South Western suburban train lines (Waterloo and Victoria to e.g. Dorking, Surbiton, Streatham Hill). Improving of station dwell times on UK trains could definitely reduce journey times and allow more trains per hour during peak.
More often than not, in and around London, at least 3-5 seconds pass before the doors are released when arriving at the stop, and dwell times are way longer than needed even if the train is cleared for departure, because of the lengthy auditory tones and slow door closing. Also, there is often quite a long pause (~6 seconds) after the doors are closed before the train gets moving (exception : class 700 or 707).
In France, the doors on every suburban train can be opened about 2 seconds before the train comes to a standstill. It is perfectly safe in my view, is it possible to integrate this feature onto UK suburban trains?

Would it work in the UK? Technically I guess it could, with some changes to on-board systems. Practically however, I fear it wouldn't work here. I do remember the days of slam-doors and people (myself included) hitting the platform running without ever being particularly worried about it. However in those days people at least seemed a bit more patient, and allowed people time to disembark. These days however, everyone seems to be the most important person in the world doing the most important tasks and so are in a constant rush, often oblivious or simply unconcerned about their fellow passengers. A suburban train train pulling into any major UK city would likely see people leaping off and leaping on before the train came to a halt, with no doubt serious consequences down the line. The ambulance chasing lawyers would have a field day, as would the Health & Safety Executive, not to mention the media.

I'm afraid it's a non-starter here for so many reasons.

 

[DarloRich]

In France, the doors on every suburban train can be opened about 2 seconds before the train comes to a standstill. It is perfectly safe in my view, is it possible to integrate this feature onto UK suburban trains?

not going to happen for all manner of obvious reasons.

 

[birchesgreen]

Yes but is there anyo reason why doors can't open as soon as the train stops, often there is quite a wait.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Years ago Merseyrail used to do this.

 

[brel york]

What’s classed as quite a wait , 3 secs , 10 secs , 2 mins ?

 

[Ianno87]

On the South Western, there is of course the wait whilst the driver opens his/her door, checks the train is in the platform correctly, and *then* releases the passenger doors.

Then the reverse process when leaving of checking all doors are shut before boarding and closing the local door.

On DOO services, the doors can be released within a couple of seconds of stopping. Check Southeastern, for example.

 

[D365]

Having lived alongside a Great Northern route for much of my life, I find the delay in door release irritating on other lines

 

[Bletchleyite]

What’s classed as quite a wait , 3 secs , 10 secs , 2 mins ?

With automation “the second the wheels stop turning” would be possible and is optimal.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

With automation “the second the wheels stop turning” would be possible and is optimal.

You would need to combine it with an automated positioning system just in case the train stops in the wrong place. One thing about European railways is that platforms at even the quietest stations seem to be about 1/4 mile in length, and often trains are much shorter due to double-decking. In the UK we combine short platforms with trains of the exact length and therefore the margins for error are much tighter. We also seem to be less tolerant of late running than the French.

 

[bnsf734]

On the South Western, there is of course the wait whilst the driver opens his/her door, checks the train is in the platform correctly, and *then* releases the passenger doors.

Then the reverse process when leaving of checking all doors are shut before boarding and closing the local door.

On DOO services, the doors can be released within a couple of seconds of stopping. Check Southeastern, for example.

On the South Western it is the GUARD who opens the door/ checks the platform and then releases the doors. This also happens on most other TOCs where 2 man Driver/Guard crews operate. It is mandated by several TOCs that the doors are not released until the Guard has stepped out onto the platform. This will obviously take a few seconds each time - longer if the guard has been checking tickets and needs to get back to a suitable door.

What other European railways do is their perogative, but UK railways will always err on the side of caution.

 

[brel york]

Here here , opening doors before it’s stopped is ridiculous, how important and busy are these people that they cannot afford to lose 30 secs

 

[jon0844]

Some tube stock used to open the doors before the train had stopped. I think you could potentially open the doors once the train has almost stopped. Given the time to actually open, you'd be able to time it so the train was stopped at the moment people could jump off. A saving of just 1 or 2 seconds could make a difference.

However the real saving comes in closing the doors, perhaps even if people are still getting on and off, and how thorough your checking is that it's safe to proceed. Would you want trains to just go once the doors close, and to hell with the risk of someone getting caught up - or falling between the platform and train? Maybe in some countries this is considered a risk for the passenger, but clearly we would never allow ourselves to go down this route.

 

[brel york]

1-2 second saving , ridiculous

 

[D365]

1-2 second saving , ridiculous

If you're targeting a 40 second dwell time, a two second saving can make a difference.

 

[brel york]

I’m on about living your life to the second

 

[matt_world2004]

Moving high frequency routes to headway would do a lot for station dwell times,

 

[jon0844]

1-2 second saving , ridiculous

The point was a 1-2 second saving at the time of arrival, and a further saving with a quick dispatch. Would make a lot of difference.

But as it may not be safe, it surely won't happen.

Underground trains dispatch in a different way, given they'd never move if you waited until everyone was on, but I can't imagine that happening on trains.

 

[D365]

I’m on about living your life to the second

Makes a difference if your train arrives late in London and you have a strict connection.

 

[Bletchleyite]

1-2 second saving , ridiculous

Adding hustle alarms added 2 minutes to the Ormskirk to Liverpool running time. Everything counts.

 

[GW43125]

1-2 second saving , ridiculous

With Thameslink's fictitious 24tph, a saving of 3-4 seconds (1-2 for both stopping and starting) is potentially a 25th path.

 

[bb21]

Moving high frequency routes to headway would do a lot for station dwell times,

Not on the mainline where trains all head towards different destinations.

For sure on Metro system like the Underground and inward services to London once they hit the suburbs where calling patterns are all the same thereon.

 

[D365]

The doors on a Class 700 open a lot quicker compared with to on a ‘classic’ Desiro.

 

[Mordac]

The doors on a Class 700 open a lot quicker compared with to on a ‘classic’ Desiro.

It'd be a challenge to have them open slower.

 

[broadgage]

With automation “the second the wheels stop turning” would be possible and is optimal.

I agree, it should even be possible to start opening the doors a very few seconds before the train has stopped, such that that although the door has started to open, it will not be open wide enough to step out until the train is stopped.
On many trains, the doors don't start to open until the train has been stopped for 10 or 15 seconds, and are not open wide enough to use for another few seconds.
This could save at least 10 seconds per stop, and probably as much as 15 seconds. On a suburban route with a dozen stops that is a saving of two or three minutes.
Worthwhile in my view, either to accelerate services by a few minutes, or to retain the present timings and allow an extra couple of minutes recovery time, thereby enhancing reliability.
It should be possible for each door mechanism to detect that a platform is adjacent before opening.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure at least one SWT/SWR guard has posted that their Desiro doors CAN be opened as soon as the train stops, there is no longer a rule that the guard must get off and check the platform first, as long as he is sure that the train length is properly positioned for the relevant platform.

 

[ScotGG]

On Southeastern Metro routes doors are much slower to be opened than even 2 years ago. Why is this? We wait for 10 seconds when it was 1-2 before. Sometimes longer and it all adds up.

Its a DOO system so no guards. This happens at all times - even in clear daylight at quiet times with about 1 person waiting on an entire platform so it can't just be checking its clear.

It's funny to see posters talk about billions being spent to speed up journeys and small changes such as this negating some of it.

 

[ScotGG]

On DOO services, the doors can be released within a couple of seconds of stopping. Check Southeastern, for example.

Not any more at SE.

 

[AM9]

With Thameslink's fictitious 24tph, a saving of 3-4 seconds (1-2 for both stopping and starting) is potentially a 25th path.

The Thameslink core is being signalled for 30tph assuming (istr) a 40 second dwell. That is designed to provide recovery for the 24tph peak in the event of delays in the core. ATO is key to that performance with automatic stopping in the correct position and automatic door opening.

 

[Roast Veg]

S Stock doors can be released before the train comes to a complete halt for exactly this reason.