Arriva Rail North DOO

[Overspeed110]

And you know it's not just about a PTS trained person on every train, it's about a PTS trained person on every train and the driver not being allowed to perform any door closing or dispatch duties.

And correctly so....

 

[Moonshot]

You are wrong, obviously no names or locations, but it has.

But nowhere near the solidarity shown on Merseyrail

No I am not wrong at all , I m right in the thick of this

 

[Moonshot]

And correctly so....

Correct or not, the reality is that things are changing for guards

 

[Robertj21a]

And correctly so....

Why ?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Surely privatisng the rail industry in its entirety would at least kill off disruption by stike action then ? Certainly train drivers have done very well in terms of pay when ASLEF negotiate with the private sector.

Well they could always follow my unions take on it...

££££

Where do we sign?

Bud give up. It isn't worth it with certain people. Btw Moonshot you still have a lot to learn about the railway please make sure you explain your position to your colleagues at Vic or wherever as I am sure that would really help the current situation.

 

[Carlisle]

they can legally refuse to cross the picket line.

True, but unless virtually the entire workforce at a particular depot/location agree in advance to do that, would it achieve much more than simply creating additional bad feeling and division amongst staff?

 

[Dentonian]

A number say they are in favour of guards but then when it's pointed out that a 'driver only' service means the driver does the doors, not that there's no-one else on board people say they don't care if the second person is a guard or not as long as there is one. In fact many say they would prefer it if the second person wasn't in control of the doors. One newspaper site from a Labour supporting town has 21 comments on an article - 1 is from someone who's quoted from the RMT, the rest are from those who don't support the strikes set to take place in January.

It's the RMT who have no evidence that the majority of the public are on their side, as they keep claiming. I've not been on one train where a guard has asked passengers for their view on the dispute - of course those who voluntary tell the guard are going to be in favour. :roll:

Not sure which local newspaper sites you look at but the comments on the ones I look at are mainly anti-Tory even when it's a paper for a pro-Tory town like Wilmslow.

People who make their comments known on ANY subject on News sites are right-wing reactionary's who think that everyone without a job is lazy; anyone not white should be "sent home" and nothing is the fault of Central Government. The weird thing is, nearly all these right wing comments are posted during the working day!!!

As for me, I don't know enough about the pro and cons of this dispute, so I don't offer a comment.

 

[12guard4]

DOO is purely about profit maximisation. What the public want, their safety and convenience come second to profit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

DOO is purely about profit maximisation.

It’s largely about that. It can have other benefits, such as speeding up trains with frequent stops (“ding ding, ding ding” is a good 5 seconds, while the doors can be released near enough the second the wheels stop turning) and allowing on board staff on rural services with frequent stops to concentrate on ticket sales.

 

[12guard4]

It’s largely about that. It can have other benefits, such as speeding up trains with frequent stops (“ding ding, ding ding” is a good 5 seconds, while the doors can be released near enough the second the wheels stop turning) and allowing on board staff on rural services with frequent stops to concentrate on ticket sales.

A guard can release the doors immediately if they don't have a requirement to step down first. There won't be staff on board to concenteate on ticket sales long term.

 

[74A]

A guard can release the doors immediately if they don't have a requirement to step down first. There won't be staff on board to concenteate on ticket sales long term.

Yes but you don't have the 20 second delay on departure. Guard has to close his local door wait for interlock give 2 on buzzer receive 2 then train moves. DOO departure will always be quicker then with guard. 20 seconds per stop is a significant amount of time when you can have 20 stops on a journey.

 

[northwichcat]

DOO is purely about profit maximisation. What the public want, their safety and convenience come second to profit.

Given the current Northern franchise is very unlikely to make the level of profits the old 'no growth' franchise made and that 50% of passenger mileage being DCO is a DfT requirement not an idea Arriva came up with, it's actually very much about reducing the subsidy from central government.

 

[northwichcat]

allowing on board staff on rural services with frequent stops to concentrate on ticket sales.

Which is the primary reason for DCO - reducing ticket-less travel without changing the staff to services operated ratio. (There will be more staff due to more services.)

 

[northwichcat]

People who make their comments known on ANY subject on News sites are right-wing reactionary's who think that everyone without a job is lazy; anyone not white should be "sent home" and nothing is the fault of Central Government. The weird thing is, nearly all these right wing comments are posted during the working day!!!

While the Daily Mail is the most popular 'news' website it doesn't mean all news sites are like that e.g. comments like that on The Guardian, Huffington Post, Independent or i websites are very rare.

 

[Robertj21a]

DOO is purely about profit maximisation. What the public want, their safety and convenience come second to profit.

I wouldn't have put it quite that way. I'd say it was primarily to cut costs plus an ability to speed up dwell times a bit. As far more qualified people than me have stated that DOO is 'safe' then it's not for me to question that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes but you don't have the 20 second delay on departure. Guard has to close his local door wait for interlock give 2 on buzzer receive 2 then train moves. DOO departure will always be quicker then with guard. 20 seconds per stop is a significant amount of time when you can have 20 stops on a journey.

Adding hustle alarms was enough to add 2 minutes to Ormskirk to Liverpool times in the 1990s...now consider something like the Southport line or the CLC...

 

[Eccles1983]

Yes but you don't have the 20 second delay on departure. Guard has to close his local door wait for interlock give 2 on buzzer receive 2 then train moves. DOO departure will always be quicker then with guard. 20 seconds per stop is a significant amount of time when you can have 20 stops on a journey.

Not entirely correct.

If the platform is on the right hand side, then as a driver I going to take much longer as it stands to dispatch.

Pull up, Brake in step 3, selector to neutral, Get out of chair, walk to other side of cab, check I am fully on platform, then release the doors.

On departure reverse the process. This will add over a minute on dispatching unless massive investment on platforms and monitors is made.

Add at least another 5 minutes if there is a wheelchair or person requiring assistance on board.

 

[12guard4]

I wouldn't have put it quite that way. I'd say it was primarily to cut costs plus an ability to speed up dwell times a bit. As far more qualified people than me have stated that DOO is 'safe' then it's not for me to question that.

DOO isn't dangerous but it isn't as safe as Driver and Guard operation. Most drivers I know myself included are far happier with driver and Guard operation.

 

[Robertj21a]

DOO isn't dangerous but it isn't as safe as Driver and Guard operation. Most drivers I know myself included are far happier with driver and Guard operation.

I think this has been covered numerous times on various threads. Not much point in going over it all again.

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes but you don't have the 20 second delay on departure. Guard has to close his local door wait for interlock give 2 on buzzer receive 2 then train moves. DOO departure will always be quicker then with guard. 20 seconds per stop is a significant amount of time when you can have 20 stops on a journey.

Wrong on so many levels.

DOO really isn't significantly faster. I have driven on both and I am much more hesitant than my Guards ever were. When the decision to close the doors is 100% the Drivers you get a different mentality towards dispatch. 20 seconds for each dwell time is pretty much my company policy. In fact, we get moaned at when its significantly less.

Not only that, the dwell times are determined by the timetable. There is one place on my network where I am allowed to ignore the timetable and go ahead of my booked time. Regardless of how my unit gets dispatched, I am restricted to the timetable.

FYI I run 30+ stops on some diagrams

 

[387star]

Just seen this :

4 January 2018

RMT Press Office:

Northern Rail strike action goes ahead as company refuses point blank to enter into serious negotiations

Rail union RMT has confirmed that three days of strike action on Northern Rail goes ahead next week exactly as planned after the company refused point blank to enter into serious and genuine negotiations that could have brokered a way forwards in talks held yesterday.

Although the union made it clear that we were prepared to open up a range of discussions around operational models already established in successful negotiations in Scotland and Wales the company maintained their pre-conditions that the union had to accept Driver Controlled Operation and a future where at least half of Northern trains run without a second safety critical member of staff on board.

The company proposals would mean nearly half a million trains a year running on Northern without the crucial safety guarantee of the second, safety-critical member of staff on board.

It is this dogmatic and irresponsible attitude to ‎the talks process by Arriva Rail North that effectively collapsed a genuine opportunity offered by the union to make serious progress in negotiations yesterday. As a result next week's action goes ahead as planned and the blame for the disruption caused will rest squarely with Arriva.

R‎MT General Secretary Mick Cash said;

"Our members are angry and frustrated that yet again a genuine opportunity to make progress in talks yesterday has been kicked into touch by the pig-headed and intransigent attitude of Arriva Rail North who simply want their staff to surrender to their demands to axe guards from half their trains regardless of the safety consequences.

"RMT was prepared to enter into a serious discussion around operational models similar to agreements reached in Wales and Scotland but the door was slammed in our faces.

"As a result of the Arriva Rail North attitude the action goes ahead in defence of rail safety, access and security and the public will understand that we are fighting in the interests of rail passengers across the region.

"This dispute is about putting public safety before private profit and that is the message we will be sending out on the picket lines from Monday."

Ends

 

[northwichcat]

Just seen this :
"This dispute is about putting public safety before private profit and that is the message we will be sending out on the picket lines from Monday."

If they stopped putting that claim in their press releases they may get further than just Newsquest websites.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

If they stopped putting that claim in their press releases they may get further than just Newsquest websites.

Do you ever read what staff from all levels (not just guards) say about DOO? Its is about many things mainly Safety and yes of course Staff keeping their employment. Its like you going on about your illustrious mis/mid cheshire line and how amazingly you never see staff when as staff we know we go through the train regularly and we are monitored to show it. you are blinded by your hatred for northern and their Guards so like to "stir the pot" while you do that the Staff who work on the railway will keep making people like yourselves just that bit safer.

 

[northwichcat]

Do you ever read what staff from all levels (not just guards) say about DOO? Its is about many things mainly Safety and yes of course Staff keeping their employment. Its like you going on about your illustrious mis/mid cheshire line and how amazingly you never see staff when as staff we know we go through the train regularly and we are monitored to show it. you are blinded by your hatred for northern and their Guards so like to "stir the pot" while you do that the Staff who work on the railway will keep making people like yourselves just that bit safer.

So how are Arriva putting private profit before safety? It is DfT who specified 50% of passenger mileage to be under driver controlled operation and DfT (under the Conservatives) who want private operators to get reduced subsides. Mick Cash talks about 50% of services being DOO and refusing to talk to Arriva, so it sounds like he doesn't know what the exact plan is and by his own omission he's refusing to talk to Northern unless they agree to breach their franchise agreement.

Do you recall you yourself once said you don't always walk through the train between Knutsford and Navigation Road? While a significant number of passengers travel between Knutsford and Altrincham only say there's no visible staff presence on some Mid-Cheshire services. Although, like I've said before since this DOO dispute started guards started becoming a lot more visible, whether that's down to Arriva or whether that's down to the RMT I don't know.

I also remember reading one staff member says guards don't have to have first aid training. In my opinion that alone is enough reason for looking at reviewing the role of the guards on train - an office with 30 people must have a trained first aider but a moving train with 300 passengers doesn't need one - what loony came up with that idea?

I don't support Northern services with one member of staff on board but at the same time don't support the RMT creating maximum disruption over the door and dispatch duties being done by the driver, especially when Northern have said they are willing to guarantee all guards retain employment until at least the franchise end date (currently 2025.) If the RMT weren't so stubborn they would be talking to Northern about what training a second person must have even if they don't normally do the door duties.

 

[Bookd]

We keep coming back to who are RMT striking against. As said above DOO on Arriva is government policy and will not change - will strikes continue until the next general election in the hope of a new government?
More difficult to understand are the strikes on SWR, who have no intention of introducing DOO and could not do so anyway due to the infrastructure - the only reason for the strikes that I can see is the hope of causing problems for local MPs, which doesn't seem to be working.

 

[northwichcat]

We keep coming back to who are RMT striking against. As said above DOO on Arriva is government policy and will not change - will strikes continue until the next general election in the hope of a new government?

Some people seem to be under the illusion that things will be better under Labour because Andy McDonald said something about no further DOO if Labour win the next election but nothing about reversing DOO. Even if there's another general election before DOO starts on Northern and Merseyrail I can see Labour letting it go through saying it was already put in place before they were elected, as Merseyrail is the plan of a Labour authority it would probably also be much easier for a future Labour government to say that than to try and stop DOO. Also remember Labour are the party who said they would reverse the Beeching Cuts and then reversed very few cuts and they are also the party who introduced the SRA to try and make the railways more cost efficient.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

So how are Arriva putting private profit before safety? It is DfT who specified 50% of passenger mileage to be under driver controlled operation and DfT (under the Conservatives) who want private operators to get reduced subsides. Mick Cash talks about 50% of services being DOO and refusing to talk to Arriva, so it sounds like he doesn't know what the exact plan is and by his own omission he's refusing to talk to Northern unless they agree to breach their franchise agreement.

Do you recall you yourself once said you don't always walk through the train between Knutsford and Navigation Road? While a significant number of passengers travel between Knutsford and Altrincham only say there's no visible staff presence on some Mid-Cheshire services. Although, like I've said before since this DOO dispute started guards started becoming a lot more visible, whether that's down to Arriva or whether that's down to the RMT I don't know.

I also remember reading one staff member says guards don't have to have first aid training. In my opinion that alone is enough reason for looking at reviewing the role of the guards on train - an office with 30 people must have a trained first aider but a moving train with 300 passengers doesn't need one - what loony came up with that idea?

I don't support Northern services with one member of staff on board but at the same time don't support the RMT creating maximum disruption over the door and dispatch duties being done by the driver, especially when Northern have said they are willing to guarantee all guards retain employment until at least the franchise end date (currently 2025.) If the RMT weren't so stubborn they would be talking to Northern about what training a second person must have even if they don't normally do the door duties.

It is impossible to walk through the train all the time and yes I did say that and occasionally still don't if there are other matters to attend to, Delay/maintenance reporting, faulty Local control cover etc. There are many reasons why. but the assumption that you are always correct when many times you are miles away from the truth is quite frankly annoying.

 

[FordFocus]

It’s largely about that. It can have other benefits, such as speeding up trains with frequent stops (“ding ding, ding ding” is a good 5 seconds, while the doors can be released near enough the second the wheels stop turning) and allowing on board staff on rural services with frequent stops to concentrate on ticket sales.

I wouldn't have put it quite that way. I'd say it was primarily to cut costs plus an ability to speed up dwell times a bit. As far more qualified people than me have stated that DOO is 'safe' then it's not for me to question that.

It has no effect on dwell times for timetabling. An extra 5 seconds is worth having a guard IMHO. Northern in the past have been able to sit at some stations for some minutes to catch up time. Guard door controls panels at every door helps guards collect ticket fares.

 

[northwichcat]

It is impossible to walk through the train all the time and yes I did say that and occasionally still don't if there are other matters to attend to, Delay/maintenance reporting, faulty Local control cover etc. There are many reasons why. but the assumption that you are always correct when many times you are miles away from the truth is quite frankly annoying.

I only say what I observe or what other people report as happening and try to make it clear what are my own observations and what are others. How often do you travel on Mid-Cheshire line services when you're not working them? Unless it's frequently how are you in a position to say whether I'm right or wrong?

I notice you keep ignoring questions about the validity of the RMT's claims but keep attacking people who dare to question what Mick Cash says, even if they have evidence that he is trying to mislead people. There's a lot of new technology being introduced on the railways, while the Civities will be futuristic compared to the Pacers but Cash keep talking like technological advancements are a bad thing when a lot of them help keep passengers and train crews safer.

 

[Wombat]

The press release suggests that the RMT pitched something new to Arriva. Is that the case?