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How should TOCs deal with 16 year olds?

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gray1404

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Mod Note: Thread split from here.

Is it even reasonable though for a TOC to ask for an inflated out of court settlement from a child aged 16? Surely it would only be reasonable for them to request the difference in fare. Is it even reasonable for them to expect a child to write back. Surely a warning letting explaining the importance of travelling on the correct ticket would be most effective.
 
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Llanigraham

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Why not?

A 16 year old can be classed as criminally responsible for their actions, can easily be in work and have money. They have to learn.

For example, I can think of a few that have had speeding tickets!
 
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LWB

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I think it would be more equitable if all persons should pay child rates up until they have reached the statutory school leaving age. Not a view I expect to be popular but enforceable and fair.
 

Fawkes Cat

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There's an issue waiting to explode here. We had the millionaire's daughter a few weeks ago (if I remember rightly, she was entitled to a child fare but was refused) and now we have on the thread parallel to this someone who isn't entitled but who was buying child tickets.

At some point, the media will pick up on this in a big way, and there'll be a good old muddled moral panic with (probably the same) commentators arguing that fare evasion by adults buying child tickets must be clamped down on while for the safety of our children they must be allowed to get home even without a ticket. That'll be fun while it lasts.

As a first step, it really would help if the transport industry as a whole could come up with a common definition of when you move from buying child tickets to adult tickets. I'm not really too fussed as to what that age would be - it just needs to be uniform so on any bus, train or tram a passenger will have no reason not to know what ticket to ask for. Getting this in place should present no difficulty for anyone skilled in herding cats (which isn't much easier than herding transport undertakings).

Secondly, there are various schemes out there that provide proof of age cards. My impression is that most of those these days are to prove that you are old enough to do something - but I don't see any reason why the idea can't be flipped to have a card proving that you are young enough instead. If it comes to that, whoever issues railcards has the mechanism for producing photocards: how about a free / low cost 'child railcard', followed (subject to data protection) by an invitation to buy a young person's railcard when the top age is approaching?

Moving on, is there some way of guaranteeing that (alleged) children will get to their destination safely while protecting the railway's revenue? To just say that some sort of free ticket will be issued is asking for trouble. But (in cases of doubt - if someone is undoubtedly of age for a child ticket there's nothing to worry about) how about issuing a child ticket - but only on condition of the 'child' providing their name and address. The railway could then follow up with a notice requiring EITHER payment of the difference between the child and adult fare OR proof of entitlement to a child fare. This isn't a fool proof plan - it wouldn't deal too well with false names and addresses, and would potentially generate a lot of low value debts that would have to be expensively pursued to avoid the scheme coming into disrepute - but it would at least allow trouble free, fare paid travel for those young people who wanted to pay the right fare (but no more) and a clear deterrent (a letter to your parents asking for money) for those who are trying it on.
 

island

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A child photocard can already be had from any ticket office which has them in stock on production of proof of age and a passport photo.
 

Puffing Devil

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I think tfgm have go it right - balancing revenue protection with proof of age

Low-cost tram travel for children
You can buy a child’s fare Metrolink ticket or travelcard if:

  • you have an igo pass, and it's between your fifth birthday, and 31 August after your 16th birthday;

  • you do not have an igo pass, and it's between your fifth birthday and the day before your 16th birthday.
From age 11 you must carry proof of your age. Use your igo pass if you have one. If not, carry official ID with a photograph and your date of birth.
It's like a reverse Challenge 25 policy for buying Alcohol - if you're in the boundary zone of age then you must prove your entitlement. If you travel enough a child photocard is worth getting.
 

rs101

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Was even more confusing on the buses here in Essex when I was at sixth-form college and had a bus pass for free travel - that also entitled me to child fares on the buses while my friends who weren't still in education had to pay full fare.
 

island

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I think tfgm have go it right - balancing revenue protection with proof of age

Low-cost tram travel for children
You can buy a child’s fare Metrolink ticket or travelcard if:

  • you have an igo pass, and it's between your fifth birthday, and 31 August after your 16th birthday;

  • you do not have an igo pass, and it's between your fifth birthday and the day before your 16th birthday.
From age 11 you must carry proof of your age. Use your igo pass if you have one. If not, carry official ID with a photograph and your date of birth.
It's like a reverse Challenge 25 policy for buying Alcohol - if you're in the boundary zone of age then you must prove your entitlement. If you travel enough a child photocard is worth getting.
And they give you up to an extra year of child rate travel as an incentive for getting the ID.
 

30907

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And they give you up to an extra year of child rate travel as an incentive for getting the ID.
To the end of the academic year, which makes good sense to teenagers who tend to go by their year group.
 

roversfan2001

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The problem with a scheme like that is that the ID cards the individual operators use aren't standardised and are often only available for children in the area, which results in children not from the area having to risk any inspectors not pulling them up for a lack of ID, or having to purchase adult fare, neither of which is ideal.
 

Puffing Devil

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The problem with a scheme like that is that the ID cards the individual operators use aren't standardised and are often only available for children in the area, which results in children not from the area having to risk any inspectors not pulling them up for a lack of ID, or having to purchase adult fare, neither of which is ideal.

No need for a local pass:

tfgm said:
From age 11 you must carry proof of your age. Use your igo pass if you have one. If not, carry official ID with a photograph and your date of birth.
 

island

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The buses will not sell a child fare without it.
The TfGM website says that a child fare can be had by someone eligible for same on production of any official photo ID, which seems to contradict you. I accept that I don’t live locally to the area and local custom and practice may vary.
 

185143

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The TfGM website says that a child fare can be had by someone eligible for same on production of any official photo ID, which seems to contradict you. I accept that I don’t live locally to the area and local custom and practice may vary.
I had an Igo for 5 years and bus drivers would 100% refuse to sell a child ticket if you'd forgotten it. I never did, bit plenty of my friends did and were charged full fare-even when travelling to school.

The trams will let you use a child ticket with any ID, but the buses insist on an Igo card.
 

roversfan2001

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I had an Igo for 5 years and bus drivers would 100% refuse to sell a child ticket if you'd forgotten it. I never did, bit plenty of my friends did and were charged full fare-even when travelling to school.

The trams will let you use a child ticket with any ID, but the buses insist on an Igo card.
I was never been asked for ID when I had my ticket inspected on the tram when I had a child ticket.
 

MG11

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Mod Note: Thread split from here.

Is it even reasonable though for a TOC to ask for an inflated out of court settlement from a child aged 16? Surely it would only be reasonable for them to request the difference in fare. Is it even reasonable for them to expect a child to write back. Surely a warning letting explaining the importance of travelling on the correct ticket would be most effective.
To me age makes no difference, an offence is still an offence.
 

MikeWh

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To me age makes no difference, an offence is still an offence.
I'm sorry. So if a 7-year-old is caught without a valid ticket you do the same as if they were 17?
 

MG11

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I'm sorry. So if a 7-year-old is caught without a valid ticket you do the same as if they were 17?
It would more likely fall on the parents to take the punishment in that situation! 3
 

Tetchytyke

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It's like a reverse Challenge 25 policy for buying Alcohol - if you're in the boundary zone of age then you must prove your entitlement.

The problem is that most local schemes are precisely that: local. In West Yorkshire a non-resident 12yo has to pay adult fares. In Tyne and Wear non-residents are not entitled to the concessionary fare at all, reliant on the discretion of commercial child fares. The ID cards are only available to locals, and permanently resident locals at that: I can't get a card for my daughter as her mother, out of the county, is her primary carer. And, more annoyingly, her Cumbrian school pass isn't accepted either.

As I said on another thread, it is very hard to prove a negative, and proving childhood is proving a negative. If you don't have a passport (and at £70 a pop a lot of people don't) then what other official ID is there? Up here a school pass from the next county doesn't wash. What else is there?

Of course, I don't think anyone under the age of 18 should be charged adult fares, as they are not adults. They're not allowed to leave education and take a job. So why are they being charged adult fares when the buses are full of rich twirlies who don't pay a penny?
 

yorkie

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To me age makes no difference, an offence is still an offence.
It would more likely fall on the parents to take the punishment in that situation! 3
So who would pay the court costs for the seven year old then...?
Posts like this expose not just a lack of knowledge (which is ironic given what you said previously on that subject, which I quote below), but a lack of thought.

You had previously told us:
I know more than you, I have been shortlisted out of 80 applicants for the role of Revenue Protection Officer and spoken with Revenue Protection managers in great detail!!
I think you need to accept the fact that being shortlisted for an RPO job and having discussions with managers doesn't negate the fact you have much to learn.

Unfortunately I am aware of numerous encounters with revenue protection offices who think they know more than others, but actually do not. I think you would be wise to take a step back and do a bit more research and ensure you do not fall into that trap, if you are successful.
 

MG11

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Posts like this expose not just a lack of knowledge (which is ironic given what you said previously on that subject, which I quote below), but a lack of thought.

You had previously told us:

I think you need to accept the fact that being shortlisted for an RPO job and having discussions with managers doesn't negate the fact you have much to learn.

Unfortunately I am aware of numerous encounters with revenue protection offices who think they know more than others, but actually do not. I think you would be wise to take a step back and do a bit more research and ensure you do not fall into that trap, if you are successful.
I don't claim to know everything Yorkie, just a great deal regarding Rev Pro.
 

farleigh

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MG11 - your posts make no sense:

  • No matter what their age a person is criminally responsible.
  • 7 year olds are not responsible for their actions - their parents are.
 
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