Debate regarding trains advertised as conveying Standard class accommodation only

[JN114]

Moderator note: split from GWR 158s Exeter and West

so First Class will be declassified.

At the discretion of the Guard.

 

[superalbs]

At the discretion of the Guard.

Really? Even when the service has no First Class?

 

[PHILIPE]

At the discretion of the Guard.

An SWR 158 have been on lease to GWR daily for years and I'm sure 1st Class status is just ignored.

 

[TheAdelante]

Really? Even when the service has no First Class?

Hi,
Some guards are just awkward and may just penalty fare you sadly. There is a very unpleasant TM lady on the HSTs who looks like that news presenter Saira Khan - if you ended up with her she’d penalty fare you for sure!
R

 

[JN114]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C58422/2017/12/28/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57759/2017/12/28/advanced

The services are advertised as standard only on RTT, and also on the timetables.

Right, and can you point me to where in the NRCoT it says First Class is automatically declassified if it’s not advertised.

I have no doubt, in this case, that it will be declassified. I just wish people would stop wheeling out the assumption as if it’s fact or some kind of rule. It isn’t. An awkward guard would be perfectly entitled to have it as First Class if they wanted.

 

[JN114]

An SWR 158 have been on lease to GWR daily for years and I'm sure 1st Class status is just ignored.

Seen it used as First Class with First Class tickets required on the Cheltenhams plenty of times. It’s the discretion of the guard; not some imaginary rule that is to be taken as gospel that determines whether it is First Class or not.

 

[yorkie]

If the train is advertised as only conveying Standard accommodation, then that means exactly that: Standard class only.

If there is accommodation which is labelled 1st on a Standard only train, then assuming it is not locked out of use, it is available for Standard class ticket holders.

Some guards are just awkward and may just penalty fare you sadly.

A Penalty Fare cannot be issued for travelling on a Standard class ticket on a train that is advertised as only conveying Standard class accommodation.

Also it is not best practice for Guards to be authorised Penalty Fare collectors; I am aware of a few exceptions where train companies do train their Guards to be authorised collectors, but I don't believe GWR are among them?

An awkward guard would be perfectly entitled to have it as First Class if they wanted.

Is this official GWR policy? If so, then the matter may need to be investigated.

 

[TheAdelante]

If the train is advertised as only conveying Standard accommodation, then that means exactly that: Standard class only.

If there is accommodation which is labelled 1st on a Standard only train, then assuming it is not locked out of use, it is available for Standard class ticket holders.

A Penalty Fare cannot be issued for travelling on a Standard class ticket on a train that is advertised as only conveying Standard class accommodation.

Also it is not best practice for Guards to be authorised Penalty Fare collectors; I am aware of a few exceptions where train companies do train their Guards to be authorised collectors, but I don't believe GWR are among them?

I saw a TM giving people a penalty fare on GWR train to Oxford.

Also I saw a guard giving a guy a penalty fare on a Thameslink Wimbledon loop train back in February, for sitting in first on a Standard class train.

But ok

 

[yorkie]

I saw a TM giving people a penalty fare on GWR train to Oxford.

Also I saw a guard giving a guy a penalty fare on a Thameslink Wimbledon loop train back in February, for sitting in first on a Standard class train.

But ok

GTR services branded "Thameslink" are driver only operated. They do not have Guards.

 

[TheAdelante]

GTR services branded "Thameslink" are driver only operated. They do not have Guards.

That’s weird... I’m sure I saw a guy in an orange vest arguing with this other dude in the first class area...

 

[yorkie]

That’s weird... I’m sure I saw a guy in an orange vest arguing with this other dude in the first class area...

Are you sure the "guy with an orange vest" was a Guard?

 

[TheAdelante]

Are you sure the "guy with an orange vest" was a Guard?

You make a good point
I’ll shut up now - I might have been mistaken

 

[JN114]

If the train is advertised as only conveying Standard accommodation, then that means exactly that: Standard class only.

If there is accommodation which is labelled 1st on a Standard only train, then assuming it is not locked out of use, it is available for Standard class ticket holders.

But where does it say that in the NRCoT or any other relevant documentation? As I said above, I accept that it’s a commonly held belief. I accept that that is how many train crew choose to operate their trains. But no-one has ever actually been able to point at the rule or clause that actually empowers a customer to make that assertion when challenged. As far as I can see the only thing that “standard class only” does is negate the requirement for the TOC to compensate customers with First Class tickets when accommodations are NOT provided.

I cannot comment on what is, or is not official GWR policy.

 

[yorkie]

But where does it say that in the NRCoT or any other relevant documentation?

No, the onus is on you to say where it is stated that a train advertised as Standard Class only can convey 1st class accommodation.

The fact that the train is adverised as Standard only cannot simply be ignored.

As I said above, I accept that it’s a commonly held belief. I accept that that is how many train crew choose to operate their trains. But no-one has ever actually been able to point at the rule or clause that actually empowers a customer to make that assertion when challenged. As far as I can see the only thing that “standard class only” does is negate the requirement for the TOC to compensate customers with First Class tickets when accommodations are NOT provided.

I cannot comment on what is, or is not official GWR policy.

So you made it up.

If it was official policy, you would of course know

My advice to anyone asked to pay an excess fare: pay it, and appeal it, and if the company does not provide adequate compensation, the matter can be escalated. And if asked to move, offer to pay the excess to remain in that accommodation. Also collect evidence on the day showing the train being advertised as only conveying Standard class accommodation, and see if you can get something in writing from the person charging you, as if they admit to charging a fare when they know the train is advertised as Standard only, this is good evidence that a clear breach of consumer law has occurred. I will be happy to help anyone in such a situation, and I know of some solicitors who would be interested in such a case.

Don't just move to standard, as it is then very difficult to demonstrate a loss or breach of contract occurred.

 

[JN114]

No, the onus is on you to say where it is stated that a train advertised as Standard Class only can convey 1st class accommodation.

The fact that the train is adverised as Standard only cannot simply be ignored.

I guess it’s a hang up on the wording. Can “only” be construed into its literal sense? What order of precedence applies when both CoT and byelaws make it unequivocally clear that First Class is for First Class ticket holders only. Does consumer law trump that?

 

[JN114]

So you made it up.

If it was official policy, you would of course know

Being very careful with what I say - I can see nothing that would prevent a Guard from doing so. That’s not a statement on policy; but an observation. Perhaps use of the word entitled was incorrect.

I have been charged an upgrade on a train advertised standard class only, admittedly 8 or 9 years ago now. I saw no grounds to appeal further than my assertions to the train crew at the time - I was “bang to rights” as one might say. Perhaps my past experience has made me overly cautious on the matter, and don’t get me wrong I think that it should be the case that First becomes automatically declassified (as otherwise operators could use it as a loophole to circumvent compensation requirements on a wide scale basis). I just don’t think people should treat it as automatic without some kind of backup.

 

[Starmill]

Historically the national rail timetable made it completely clear by saying that all trains in the timetable convey standard class only unless otherwise shown.

 

[JN114]

Historically the national rail timetable made it completely clear by saying that all trains in the timetable convey standard class only unless otherwise shown.

That’s not even a historic thing - I’ve seen printed TOC timetables say the same thing in modern times. What the timetables etc don’t make clear - and why this debate exists - is what happens to any First Class accommodations on the train. As yorkie says above consumer law would likely be on your side; but there’s the argument of precedence - does that trump CoT/Byelaws that say 1st Class is 1st Class? I’m genuinely not sure and prefer to err and advise on the cautious side that it doesn’t until someone comes along and proves otherwise.

 

[Starmill]

I ought to have been clearer but yes it is a past and current thing. I don't have time to investigate exactly what it says where right now.

This, however:

What the timetables etc don’t make clear - and why this debate exists - is what happens to any First Class accommodations on the train.

is actually made completely clear by that statement. The only reason the debate exists is because you have decided there should be a debate on it.

 

[infobleep]

I saw a TM giving people a penalty fare on GWR train to Oxford.

Also I saw a guard giving a guy a penalty fare on a Thameslink Wimbledon loop train back in February, for sitting in first on a Standard class train.

But ok

Was the first one of the very few daily Wimbledon loop trains that does convey first class? Confusing or otherwise, they convey first class.

 

[yorksrob]

Of course, the Rail Delivery Group could remove all doubt by publically re-iterating the convention that if a train is not shown in the public timetable as having first class accommodation, any first class accommodation is effectively declassified. This would simplify things for everyone, staff and passengers included.

Come on RDG - isn't simplification like this what you're always calling for ?

 

[185143]

GTR Thameslink station announcements and PIS screens usually say that passengers can sit in ANY part of the train on a Sutton loop service IME...

 

[yorkie]

Of course, the Rail Delivery Group could remove all doubt by publically re-iterating the convention that if a train is not shown in the public timetable as having first class accommodation, any first class accommodation is effectively declassified. This would simplify things for everyone, staff and passengers included.

Come on RDG - isn't simplification like this what you're always calling for ?

It would be clarification, not simplification.

It's pretty obvious that a Guard cannot overrule advertised terms & conditions or consumer laws. National Rail Enquiries says "This train has Standard Class seating only" and that is definitive. It cannot be over-ruled by someone acting far beyond their authority.

Nevertheless, I did once encounter a GWR Guard who claimed that a Penzance to Plymouth train contained 1st class accommodation even though the timetable stated otherwise. I called Customer Services, who agreed he was wrong to be charging people Weekend First upgrades. I put him on my phone to them, they told him the facts, and he disagreed and started arguing with them! Unbelievable behaviour.

I now wish I had paid for an upgrade myself as I would not only have been able to obtain a refund but I could have ensured the matter was appropriately dealt with and a suitable letter of apology was received. I'll be sure to do that in future if the situation arises. There are still a small minority of Guards who are of the view 'it's my train, my rules apply' and believe they can disregard contract law, consumer law, and the relevant T&Cs, but this is completely inappropriate behaviour and it needs to be reported and then dealt with.

 

[yorksrob]

It would be clarification, not simplification.

It's pretty obvious that a Guard cannot overrule advertised terms & conditions or consumer laws. National Rail Enquiries says "This train has Standard Class seating only" and that is definitive. It cannot be over-ruled by someone acting far beyond their authority.

Nevertheless, I did once encounter a GWR Guard who claimed that a Penzance to Plymouth train contained 1st class accommodation even though the timetable stated otherwise. I called Customer Services, who agreed he was wrong to be charging people Weekend First upgrades. I put him on my phone to them, they told him the facts, and he disagreed and started arguing with them! Unbelievable behaviour.

I now wish I had paid for an upgrade myself as I would not only have been able to obtain a refund but I could have ensured the matter was appropriately dealt with and a suitable letter of apology was received. I'll be sure to do that in future if the situation arises. There are still a small minority of Guards who are of the view 'it's my train, my rules apply' and believe they can disregard contract law, consumer law, and the relevant T&Cs, but this is completely inappropriate behaviour and it needs to be reported and then dealt with.

I agree that "clarification" would be a more appropriate term.

The RDG are clearly the people to give it. Will they do so ....

 

[talltim]

GTR Thameslink station announcements and PIS screens usually say that passengers can sit in ANY part of the train on a Sutton loop service IME...

Bagsie the driver’s seat then, I’ve heard they are the comfortable ones

 

[GW43125]

I often use the Waterloo-Weybridge via Hounslow route and often sit in first.
I have been challenged only once on these services, and on that one occasion we had a calm discussion at the time, at the end of which he said that he had been told similar (ie that it was declass) in his training (he was new to that route). He was happy to let us stay there. On any other route I always ask the guard first.
Thameslink usually have "this accommodation may be used by standard class ticket holders" (or words to that effect) as one of the information screens above the compartments concerned. It's a good habit to check these.

 

[GW43125]

Bagsie the driver’s seat then, I’ve heard they are the comfortable ones

Just about the only remotely bearable seat. Brighton to Croydon was bloody awful!

 

[LowLevel]

My TOC automatically declassifies first accommodation on standard only services. Otherwise I'd expect it to be locked out of use. We run quite a lot of these as it happens for one reason or another. There's no point getting precious over what is functionally a railway carriage rather than the guard's own parlour.

 

[IanXC]

This is an area where I believe the wording in the National Rail Conditions of Travel differ materially from those in the previous Conditions. Whereas the Conditions spelt out these situations quite specifically, the NRCoT has this to say:

15. Using first class accommodation

15.1 Some train services include first class accommodation. Where first class accommodation is available, the relevant seats and area(s) of the train will be clearly marked.

15.2 Unless Train Company staff, or notices on the train give you specific permission, you cannot travel in first class accommodation with a standard class Ticket. This applies even if there are no vacant seats in standard class.

15.3 A standard class Ticket can in most cases be upgraded to first class. Where this is the case you should pay the additional fare due before you board the train. The amount you pay will be the difference between the fare you have already paid and the appropriate first class fare for the journey you wish to make.

15.4 Some Train companies allow you to upgrade on train on payment of a supplement. Where this is the case it will be made clear by announcements or notices.

15.5 If you travel in first class accommodation without a valid first class Ticket or permission from staff to occupy that accommodation, the Conditions set out in section 9 will apply.

15.6 If you are given permission to sit in a first class seat when holding a standard class Ticket, it is on the basis that you may be later required to give up your seat to a passenger holding a valid first class Ticket. If you hold a first class Ticket and the first class accommodation on your train service has been declassified or you are unable to sit in it because it is full, you will be entitled to a refund as set out in section 31.

You will notice that the word timetable does not appear, and that the only definition of first class accomodation is based on what is physically present on the train. Whether the intention is thus or that this is an oversight seems unclear.

 

[island]

And it can only be declassified by notices on the train or train staff, not the platform information screens