No tail lamp displayed - serious?

[ComUtoR]

One question though regards the 700’s. Does it know if it’s dark outside? Or do you need to select day and night running? The most modern train I use was built in 1999!

Still need to select Night/Day

 

[Bromley boy]

Still need to select Night/Day

From a distance the 700s look like they display two head lights of equal intensity - interesting to know it’s still marker/headlamp.

I expect that’s down to the (rather too bright?!) LED bulbs that are used.

 

[Filton Bank]

One thing that surprises me is that newer electrostar units can be driven with tails on the front (I’ve seen it with my eyes) you’d think opening up the desk would turn the tails off.

Depends what position the headlight switch is in. If it's set to 'Auto' then yes the tails turn off when the cab is activated. But if it's set to tails, the tails will stay on (or go to markers if it's set to markers, or off if it's set to off etc...)

 

[rebmcr]

Nobody has shown a “casual attitude” and nobody has suggested lights aren’t a safety critical issue.

Nah mate.

Not serious at all.

It’s definitely not a safety of the line incident and not “serious” but it is potentially inconvenient

It's not a huge issue though it needs resolving. The crew may get a ticking off for incurring delay minutes.

Equally common for trains to leave with reds on the front - see that every few weeks

 

[Filton Bank]

Nah mate.

Indeed. Not quite sure why the issue has been dismissed so lightly in some posts.

 

[Domh245]

From a distance the 700s look like they display two head lights of equal intensity - interesting to know it’s still marker/headlamp.

I expect that’s down to the (rather too bright?!) LED bulbs that are used.

They do put both headlights on - the markers are for tail lamps and shunting. The day/night setting should be the brightness of the lamps - bright during the day, dimmed during the night

 

[fulmar]

The Rule Book quote in #17 was "You need not" [set the lamps when doing a short shunting move]. That means you can set the lamps if you want (and it's OK if they set themselves automatically) but it's not compulsory.

Could you point me to where that instruction is in the Rule Book please. I'm more than happy to be educated when I am in the wrong. There is an instruction to that effect regarding wrong direction moves of less than 400 metres in TW7, but that applies to wrong direction moves, which the vast majority of shunting moves are not.

Nobody has shown a “casual attitude”

Read the first couple of responses.

If I saw reds up on any unit that wasn't on my line. My first thought isn't 'emergency'

It is possible of course that you only drive trains which are fitted with hazard lights but many are not. For trains that are not fitted with hazard lights the drivers first actions in an emergency should be to display a red light forwards. Clearly there are situations where seeing a train on the adjacent line displaying reds forwards is not an emergency and there are situations where it is obviously a driver error. However in any situation where I see a train travelling towards me on plain line with reds on the front for no immediately obvious reason, as I have seen many times in my driving career, I am personally always going to assume emergency until proven otherwise. I think it would be highly irresponsible to do otherwise.

(edited for typos)

 

[driver9000]

There’s no need to over ride the lights for wrong direction movements. All the rule book states is

“When making a wrong direction movement of less than 400 metres (440 yards), you need not change the normal head or marker lights or the tail lamp” [copied from a hard copy of the rule book so no link for quote, I typed that out myself]

And for assisting you need normal running lights for the direction you are travelling.

So you can simply have the lights change over to the direction of travel. When shunting I make many moves of less than 400 metres but I always change the lights over as force of habit. Every time I get out of a cab I switch to tail lamps, even if the train is due to carry on in the same direction. (Obviously I don’t do this when changing drivers half way through a run)

Basically, my point is, there’s no need to incorporate a manual override of any automatic lights. Simply, key in and that end shows head and marker lights.

One question though regards the 700’s. Does it know if it’s dark outside? Or do you need to select day and night running? The most modern train I use was built in 1999!

White lights both ends when going to assist in the wrong direction.

 

[ComUtoR]

It is possible of course that you only drive trains which are fitted with hazard lights but many are not.

Currently yes but only recently.

For trains that are not fitted with hazard lights the drivers first actions in an emergency should be to display a red light forwards.

I would say my first action in an emergency would be to hit the big red button on the GSMR.

Clearly there are situations where seeing a train on the adjacent line displaying reds forwards is not an emergency and there are situations where it is obviously a driver error.

Yes, and that's my point. You see so many reds up on other lines that they become insignificant. You are focused on your line and use target fixing to prevent reading across etc. Red on a different line has so many other meanings that emergency is never my first thought.

However in any situation where I see a train travelling towards me on plain line with reds on the front for no immediately obvious reason, as I have seen many times in my driving career, I am personally always going to assume emergency until proven otherwise. I think it would be highly irresponsible to do otherwise.

Reds traveling towards you ? or you traveling towards reds up ? In an emergency I have doubts that the unit would be moving at all. It would be a very serious emergency if the unit was moving and had reds up. Why would that happen ? In an emergency, you stop your unit.
If I intend to stop or warn another train then flags, dets, red hand lamp, lights waved vigorously, TCOCs, horn etc etc are actions I'm going to prioritize.

Reds traveling towards me would always be something serious but on my line and traveling toward me would be exceptionally rare.

 

[SPADTrap]

I would respectfully disagree with the above comment, on Desiro stock that I’ve seen, drivers have got well above 8mph with no lights on the front (putting the key in obviously turned the tails off) tails should be on automatically on the rear.

One thing that surprises me is that newer electrostar units can be driven with tails on the front (I’ve seen it with my eyes) you’d think opening up the desk would turn the tails off.

You'd respectfully disagree with someone who sounds like they drive them? Hmm

Electrostars will after a while give you a TCMS yellow warning 'headlight not illuminated in leading cab'..

 

[Bromley boy]

Read the first couple of responses.

We will agree to disagree there.

The context of this was the OP asking if incorrect lights were a safety of the line incident.

As far as I can tell the first couple of responses (mine was one them!) simply explain that this issue is not a serious one, albeit something that still needs to be reported etc. That certainly sums up how I view the matter, how my instructors viewed it, and all the drivers I now work with view it.

Pointing out that something is not serious/safety of the line in no way indicates a “casual attitude” towards it.

They do put both headlights on - the markers are for tail lamps and shunting. The day/night setting should be the brightness of the lamps - bright during the day, dimmed during the night

That’s funny the three trains I drove this morning all showed one headlamp and one marker for night and then day running. Must be something I’m doing wrong...

 

[ComUtoR]

That’s funny the three trains I drove this morning all showed one headlamp and one marker for night and then day running. Must be something I’m doing wrong...

I'm sure they mean specific to 700s

 

[PHILIPE]

Just an amusing story from back in the 60s when all shot out from hiding and removed it.nipped out from hiding and removed it. tail lamps hung on a bracket. There was a passenger guard at Shrewsbury who was subject to a lot of ribbing due to his character and one evening he was working a train to Wolverhampton but stopped at Abbey Foregate Box due to having no tail lamp. It turned out that just after making a last minute check there was one in place prior to departure, somebody nipped out from hiding and removed it. The following day, not to be caught again, he double checked prior to departure but, alas, got stopped again for having two lamps !!!!

 

[ComUtoR]

That certainly sums up how I view the matter, how my instructors viewed it

And if your instructor has a slightly mean streak he will let you make the mistake and watch your face when a 376 B fault comes up or when another Drivers gives the age old head pat.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Very mindful of the 1972 Rule Book which I was brought up on which says "all staff must closely observe trains , for signs of alarm , etc ...." - not spotted a no tail lamp for a while but often reacted to in many previous occassions.....

Once - way back when SLW in operation after a minor mishap - wrong roaded class 47 on an up Norwich (shows how long ago this was) - we had a train come through with both red and white on the front "old fashioned driver said the Black mack Inspector - his rules are not up to date.....!

Pilot engines like station class 08 shunters used to show red and while both ends , as they were doing bi-directional moves within station limits.

Of course , the old Southern slam door stock like 4 EPB's etc showed 2 red blinds on the rear , which were often fairly dim ......

 

[GB]

Read the first couple of responses.

The first few comments are regarding showing whites at the rear. This is an issue but not quite as serious as some suggest. Certainly not the same as showing reds at the front which can mislead people on or about the line.

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm sure they mean specific to 700s

Fair enough - If that’s the case I withdraw the comment and apologies to Domh245.

 

[fulmar]

Reds traveling towards you ? or you traveling towards reds up ? In an emergency I have doubts that the unit would be moving at all. It would be a very serious emergency if the unit was moving and had reds up. Why would that happen ?

Yes, reds travelling towards me including on occasions at speeds in excess of 100mph. For all I know an emergency has just occurred and the driver has just switched on their red lights as per Rule Book M1. Obviously in this case the train will still be moving when I see it. You are making dangerous assumptions about what you think is going on rather than what you actually know for a fact.

 

[Domh245]

I'm sure they mean specific to 700s

That’s funny the three trains I drove this morning all showed one headlamp and one marker for night and then day running. Must be something I’m doing wrong

Yeah, I was referring to the 700s - not all vehicles. Similar situation on all stock since really (345/800 etc) which have both headlights illuminated during normal operation switching between bright and dimmed for day and night respectively, with another marker light at the top. The 800s go slightly overboard, with both headlights, both lower level markers and the high level marker lit - the 385s may be similarly Christmas Tree esque

 

[fulmar]

this issue is not a serious one.

Well that's something else we'll have to agree to disagree on .

(edited as it didn't make sense before)

 

[Bromley boy]

And if your instructor has a slightly mean streak he will let you make the mistake and watch your face when a 376 B fault comes up or when another Drivers gives the age old head pat.

Quite - now that you mention it my instructor allowed me to set off with reds up once. On the other hand I doubt he would have let me spad to “teach me a lesson”.

That example perfectly demonstrates the distinction between having the wrong lights up (not serious but a learning point that needs to be remembered) and a safety of the line incident.

 

[LAX54]

With more and more 'little' boxes going, where there used to be a Signalman every couple of miles noting the red lights and gives TOS, with big power boxes, they can go hundreds of miles and not be seen at all, the track circuits in the box indicating if train is complete, these days no front lights are far more important that the reds

 

[Filton Bank]

I think I hold the company record for the number of delay minutes lost due to whites up the back.

If that's as a result of your own errors/omissions, I suggest you look at doing some work on your NTS.

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes, reds travelling towards me including on occasions at speeds in excess of 100mph. For all I know an emergency has just occurred and the driver has just switched on their red lights as per Rule Book M1. Obviously in this case the train will still be moving when I see it.

Sorry but that isn't going to happen. If you, as a Driver, just witnessed an emergency or have been involved in a train accident then you must stop your train. You would not continue at 100mph and you would press big red for sure. That is the 'quickest way' I have no doubt that you would also be sounding your horn like a crazy person.

You are making dangerous assumptions about what you think is going on rather than what you actually know for a fact.

Not really. I am using years of experience and making a decision. If I stuck the brake in every single time I saw reds on a unit on an adjacent line then I would be the one pulled in for tea and biscuits. You would be hitting emergency into a terminal station on a daily basis. Not only that If you saw and believed there was an emergency then you would also need to press the big red button.

Train Accident
For the purposes of this module, the term train accident includes:
• a derailment
• a collision involving trains or rail vehicles
• a collision with an obstruction
• a collision with a road vehicle
• a collision with a person
• a fire on a train which might put other trains passing the location
in danger
• a fire on a train which might mean that passengers are
evacuated onto running lines
• an accidental train division which has caused another line to be
obstructed.
Dealing with a train accident or train evacuation

2 What to do after a train accident
2.1 Driver’s actions
You must immediately switch on the hazard warning indication where provided.
If you cannot do this, you must display a red light forward. You must then check:
• if any other lines are obstructed (if in doubt, treat them as obstructed), and decide the quickest way to stop any
approaching trains
• the exact location of your train.

You must tell the signaller about the accident in the quickest way possible and whether the electric traction current needs to be switched off.

Sorry but you really aren't moving at 100mph with reds up after an accident. Our first duty is to protect the line. Stop, big red, contact signaler, emergency protection (if no contact).

Displaying the red light forward is indeed to stop other units and I would 100% agree that but it is not to be taken as the exclusive way to stop an oncoming train.

I also do not believe that you make an emergency stop every single time you see reds on a oncoming unit. You make a decision about what you believe to be correct.

Clearly there are situations where seeing a train on the adjacent line displaying reds forwards is not an emergency and there are situations where it is obviously a driver error.

In your own words you are making that same 'assumption' If you believe there is an emergency then 100% I would support you and say that use the brakes and stop your unit but you then must take action to then protect the line, make an emergency call etc.

With the advent of GSMR emergency protection has never been easier or clearer. It is reasonable now to believe it is not an emergency.

 

[LowLevel]

Indeed. Not quite sure why the issue has been dismissed so lightly in some posts.

I stand by it - whites on the back are not a huge issue. They require rectifying ASAP and require the driver to confirm to the box that a train is complete. Reds on the front are perhaps more concerning but as a guard they're not something I've ever come across given I don't do much work (relatively speaking) on 3 or 4 track railways (though I did once stop an ECS train departing a goods line with reds on the front, by shouting very loudly at the driver!).

It was asked are they a safety of the line incident and the answer is indeed no - the crew won't be removed from duty, interviewed etc over it, they'll just have to put it right and answer for any delay.

 

[ComUtoR]

If that's as a result of your own errors/omissions, I suggest you look at doing some work on your NTS.

Oh absolutely. I freely admit my own errors. To then think that none of us have ever done it would be dishonest. I would say most of us have forgotten our lights at some point. We all make errors.

 

[Filton Bank]

Oh absolutely. I freely admit my own errors. To then think that none of us have ever done it would be dishonest. I would say most of us have forgotten our lights at some point. We all make errors.

Absolutely. The important thing is to reduce the risk of a repeat occurrence. What are you doing to mitigate against doing it again, particularly in relation to the NTS around working methodically/systematically and checking?

 

[Filton Bank]

I stand by it - whites on the back are not a huge issue.

They may not present a huge safety risk, but are likely to be a significant performance risk. And represent an NTS failing that could be indicative of a wider problem if it's repeated behaviour.

 

[Bromley boy]

Well that's something else we'll have to agree to disagree on .

(edited as it didn't make sense before)

If you leave with the wrong lights set do you take yourself off track and ask for a development plan?!

You’ve added a smiley to my text and also somewhat quoted me out of context - what I actually said was:

this issue is not a serious one, albeit something that still needs to be reported etc.

Some right old rubbish has been posted on this thread which has sadly degenerated into the usual forum bunfight.

One other poster on here I know in person to be a very experienced driver and DI. If he agrees with my view then that is good enough for me.

 

[fulmar]

Sorry but that isn't going to happen. If you, as a Driver, just witnessed an emergency or have been involved in a train accident then you must stop your train. You would not continue at 100mph and you would press big red for sure.

Not really. I am using years of experience and making a decision. If I stuck the brake in every single time I saw reds on a unit on an adjacent line then I would be the one pulled in for tea and biscuits.

In your own words you are making that same 'assumption'

It is reasonable now to believe it is not an emergency.

I'm not talking about people having an accident and then continuing at 100mph without stopping My point was specifically about a situation where a driver sees something that they believe is an immediate danger to trains on adjacent lines. If I happen to be approaching in the other direction a few seconds later, they will obviously still be moving when we pass, even if they have made an emergency brake application.

Like you I am basing my decision making on years of experience. I have "stuck the brake in" on numerous occasions and never yet been called in for tea and biscuits.

As to the assumption I am making, I am assuming the worst until proven otherwise. You are assuming the best until proven otherwise. If you are happy with that fine. I would not be.

On that last part, we will have to agree to disagree again.

I also freely admit my errors and have certainly set off on occasions with the wrong lights displayed. I tend to take it very seriously when it happens.

I've got to go and play trains now. See you tomorrow perhaps?

 

[ComUtoR]

Absolutely. The important thing is to reduce the risk of a repeat occurrence. What are you doing to mitigate against doing it again, particularly in relation to the NTS around working methodically/systematically and checking?

Are you my Manager ?

However, what I suggest, as a kind of manager, is that every Driver wo forgets their lights must attend a NTS course of 2 days and then be placed on a skills enhancement plan of no less than 2 years after receiving an informal warning. I would also suggest that the Driver undertake an FDA and have no less than 3 additional OTMR downloads over the course of their Skills enhancement plan.

I have an SEP on my laptop for at least 2 Drivers and I would also suggest that each Driver is given access to those, on the agreement of the Drivers involved. As a Manager I would also add it to the next LADD (learning and development day) due to the high number of occurrences amongst the driving grade.