My suggestion to increase the prices charged by on-board trolleys

[sjoh]

You are missing the fact that most people do not share your view and simply will not pay £4.50, therefore the resulting poor sales figures mean you are not increasing profit margins, in fact you would be achieving quite the opposite!

The only trolleys I will consider using are the reasonably priced ones such as the S&C and West Highland lines.

There is no way I'd pay from the trolley on a journey like York to London: it is easy to stock up before the journey to avoid the ludicrous prices charged by the likes of Virgin.

I think this is rather the point though - yes, trolleys/buffets could lower their prices if they had a relatively guaranteed level of income on a product with a relatively high PED. Stop people taking beer on trains, and they will probably buy a few if they fancy it - but most who fancy a beer on a train have thought ahead.
Yes, you pay more for a beer in a pub than you do from Tesco.
1) You're given a warm and inviting place to sit and enjoy it (which costs money)
2) Someone prepares it all for you, (which costs money).
3) Your drink is kept and treated at industry level standards before it is served to you.
It's a tad different to being passed a can of luke warm carlsberg on a train.

Let's say VTEC banned taking alcohol onto their trains - they'd then have two options: lower their prices to try and soak up a fair bit of that demand, or rocket their prices given they have a captive clientele. And this is exactly where PED comes to play.


Edit: Yorkie, sorry - this sort of reads like I'm having a go at/disagreeing with you - in fact quite the opposite, I simply felt your post was a good hook into what I wanted to say. My apologies!

 

[Bromley boy]

I think this is rather the point though - yes, trolleys/buffets could lower their prices if they had a relatively guaranteed level of income on a product with a relatively high PED. Stop people taking beer on trains, and they will probably buy a few if they fancy it - but most who fancy a beer on a train have thought ahead.
Yes, you pay more for a beer in a pub than you do from Tesco.
1) You're given a warm and inviting place to sit and enjoy it (which costs money)
2) Someone prepares it all for you, (which costs money).
3) Your drink is kept and treated at industry level standards before it is served to you.
It's a tad different to being passed a can of luke warm carlsberg on a train.

Let's say VTEC banned taking alcohol onto their trains - they'd then have two options: lower their prices to try and soak up a fair bit of that demand, or rocket their prices given they have a captive clientele. And this is exactly where PED comes to play.


Edit: Yorkie, sorry - this sort of reads like I'm having a go at/disagreeing with you - in fact quite the opposite, I simply felt your post was a good hook into what I wanted to say. My apologies!

So you're suggesting TOCs ban brought-on alcohol to boost on-board catering?

That's a bit like suggesting Esso reduces petrol prices by 10p per litre in order to sell more packets of crisps at petrol stations.

The point you're overlooking is that this might risk ticket sales which are the TOC's main business. On train catering services are incidental to that and therefore need to make themselves pay. It would be totally irrational for a TOC to take any action that might reduce ticket sales in order to boost on board catering.

 

[sjoh]

So you're suggesting TOCs ban brought-on alcohol to boost on-board catering?

That's a bit like suggesting Esso reduces petrol prices by 10p per litre in order to sell more packets of crisps at petrol stations.

The point you're overlooking is that this might risk ticket sales which are the TOC's main business. On train catering services are incidental to that and therefore need to make themselves pay. It would be totally irrational for a TOC to take any action that might reduce ticket sales in order to boost on board catering.

er, no. Not at all. Please re-read the post. I was pointing out that this is something of a devil's pic'n'mix. Apologies if that wasn't clear, although I can't help but admit to being baffled by your inference that I suggest banning bringing goodies on-board.

 

[Bromley boy]

er, no. Not at all. Please re-read the post. I was pointing out that this is something of a devil's pic'n'mix. Apologies if that wasn't clear, although I can't help but admit to being baffled by your inference that I suggest banning bringing goodies on-board.

In that case, I must say, I'm at a bit of a loss. No offence but your previous post is somewhat confused and doesn't seem to actually say anything.

Please could you elaborate on what your point is?

 

[sjoh]

In that case, I must say, I'm at a bit of a loss. No offence but your previous post is somewhat confused and doesn't seem to actually say anything.

Please could you elaborate on what your point is?

My post was simply to say that I was in agreement with yorkie et al, but to absolutely clarify:

I do not think there is a silver bullet to reasonable product price management onboard trains, I was pointing out a few obstacles to this.

Part of my job currently is to order and price goods for sale: I'm very aware of how difficult it is both financially and ethically to get that balance right. I think we essentially need to accept our lot when it comes to onboard catering.
Put a Tesco Express beside every train station and of course you're going to see a decrease in demand for on board catering, and subsequent attempts by caterers to reclaim their margins. And, ultimately fail. It's a losing battle.

 

[delt1c]

Using the same theory, over crowding could be eased by dramatically increasing rail fares, traffic congestion could be eased by in the same way.

 

[route:oxford]

Let's say VTEC banned taking alcohol onto their trains - they'd then have two options: lower their prices to try and soak up a fair bit of that demand, or rocket their prices given they have a captive clientele. And this is exactly where PED comes to play.

They'd continue to have the third option they already have on their dry services and not sell any booze at all.

Banning alcohol on trains has been going on for years - it's usually helpful...

But if you're carrying a £50+ bottle of single malt to give as a gift or you've just finished work and bought your Christmas dinner from M&S along with a few bottles of Prosecco - it's an absolute pest to be told you can't board a train.

 

[yorksrob]

My post was simply to say that I was in agreement with yorkie et al, but to absolutely clarify:

I do not think there is a silver bullet to reasonable product price management onboard trains, I was pointing out a few obstacles to this.

Part of my job currently is to order and price goods for sale: I'm very aware of how difficult it is both financially and ethically to get that balance right. I think we essentially need to accept our lot when it comes to onboard catering.
Put a Tesco Express beside every train station and of course you're going to see a decrease in demand for on board catering, and subsequent attempts by caterers to reclaim their margins. And, ultimately fail. It's a losing battle.

Arguably hot drinks are the "silver bullet" because they are difficult for passengers to recreate on their own, however many Tesco Expresses you have near stations. They should avoid Twining's "Everyday" tea as it tastes like dishwater.

Beer is notoriously tricky as a lot of TOC's trolleys don't even stock a decent ale, so you're never going to please all potential beer drinkers.

 

[yorksrob]

They'd continue to have the third option they already have on their dry services and not sell any booze at all.

Banning alcohol on trains has been going on for years - it's usually helpful...

But if you're carrying a £50+ bottle of single malt to give as a gift or you've just finished work and bought your Christmas dinner from M&S along with a few bottles of Prosecco - it's an absolute pest to be told you can't board a train.

Dry trains are a nuisance which should only be resorted to in extremis.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But if you're carrying a £50+ bottle of single malt to give as a gift or you've just finished work and bought your Christmas dinner from M&S along with a few bottles of Prosecco - it's an absolute pest to be told you can't board a train.

I think TfL's ban is more sensible - a ban on *open* containers. You can carry it home, but when you open it you are committing an offence. If there is ever a blanket ban (on which I'm fairly neutral, as TBH coffee is more my railway tipple, as it were) I would hope it would take this more sensible line.

 

[12guard4]

I believe WMT have introduced dry trains on a Friday and Saturday evening. Not sure how well implemented it will be. Quite hard I imagine telling a drunk passenger they cant have anymore.

 

[Holly]

Given the times and the mores, the change I expect to see (but will not welcome) is that trolley ladies will be replaced by robots. Perhaps when the next generation of rolling stock comes in.

Personally, I would prefer the system on Russian trains - free hot water, bring your own mug and teabag.

 

[jdxn]

Given the times and the mores, the change I expect to see (but will not welcome) is that trolley ladies will be replaced by robots. Perhaps when the next generation of rolling stock comes in.

I presume that's not serious. Robots get mentioned for replacing every job, but its not going to happen. A robot that moves that weight across, bumpy corridor connections and navigates bags, toddlers etc will be way too expensive to make/maintain compared to the small market they would serve. They will still need to be stocked and setup. Automation is great for certain things - but akin to all the driverless train threads there have been, actually humans do many things better and cheaper.

I now never buy anything on board because a meal deal at the station is always cheaper and beer is rubbish lukewarm. Even an expensive bottle of water from WH Smith at KX is cheaper that a not cold one on board.

 

[bishdunster]

Lets bring back the old Southern Railway Tavern Cars !

 

[185]

So, 1999 - some years ago when self employed, here were (roughly) the prices on Northern Spirit's (MTL) Transpennine Express.

£1 Coffee Tea Hot Choc
£2 Stella (500ml)
£0.70 Mars Twix Snickers Kitkat
£0.50 Crisps
£1.70-2.20 Sandwiches
£1 Peanuts
£2.50 Spirits - Miniatures
£3 Wine QB

Profitable? We sold a fortune. Well marketed, bulk amounts ram-packed into the old (br, flatbed) trolleys. Normally leave with 8 sleeves of coffees.

I do look at the modern contraptions and laugh, what an unstable, top heavy, low capacity / sold-out mess. The only good thing on it is the Epos (subject to it working).

And. My till had a bell. The novelty wore off one day, so I had a fight with it on the way to Appleby and the bell went out the window of a 156 near Dent.

 

[185]

Given the times and the mores, the change I expect to see (but will not welcome) is that trolley ladies will be replaced by robots. Perhaps when the next generation of rolling stock comes in.

Oh, don't give them ideas

(picture credit: railfaneurope)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the times and the mores, the change I expect to see (but will not welcome) is that trolley ladies will be replaced by robots. Perhaps when the next generation of rolling stock comes in.

They have had robots that flog you tea and chocolate for years. They call them "vending machines"

If you're going to have that it might as well be fixed in a particular area of the train with a few standing tables etc.

Personally, I would prefer the system on Russian trains - free hot water, bring your own mug and teabag.

Some kind of water cooler might genuinely not be a bad idea but I can see it not being maintained properly and being vandalised and spilt all over the floor.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Profitable? We sold a fortune. Well marketed, bulk amounts ram-packed into the old (br, flatbed) trolleys. Normally leave with 8 sleeves of coffees.

But wasn't that to some extent before the "quality coffee" revolution? People just won't go for Nescafe these days.

OTOH Ryanair "filter lid" coffee is excellent and ideal for the trolley - does any TOC sell that? I half recall one does but I can't remember which, Eurostar maybe?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe WMT have introduced dry trains on a Friday and Saturday evening. Not sure how well implemented it will be. Quite hard I imagine telling a drunk passenger they cant have anymore.

LM have had it on Liverpool-Birmingham services for quite a long time due to specific problems on those services but there was never any real need to roll it out, as the only alcohol-related issues on late evening trains out of Euston are due to that already consumed rather than on board consumption. I can't decide if LNR/WMR have rolled it out across the network or if it's yet another case of the badly done website full of misinformation.

 

[BlueFox]

OTOH Ryanair "filter lid" coffee is excellent and ideal for the trolley - does any TOC sell that? I half recall one does but I can't remember which

I had a couple of coffees with a filter in the lid on Transpennine Express services, several months ago. Don't know if that was a trial or whether that's standard for them now.

 

[Holly]

...

Personally, I would prefer the system on Russian trains - free hot water, bring your own mug and teabag.

Some kind of water cooler might genuinely not be a bad idea but I can see it not being maintained properly and being vandalised and spilt all over the floor.

Hot and cold water urns could not be too expensive. And a drain in the floor to carry away spills.
Add a vending machine that sells teabags and overpriced china mugs in cute souvenir boxes for those who forgot to bring their own. Add the obligatory elf safety notice ("Children are advised to refrain from scalding themselves to death").
Real rocket science engineering stuff this.
It works for the Russians, why not us?

 

[al78]

Using the same theory, over crowding could be eased by dramatically increasing rail fares, traffic congestion could be eased by in the same way.

Might well work if done over a long enough timescale. At some point the transport costs wouild increase to the point where it makes more financial sense for people to look for local jobs instead of choosing a job and a home 50 miles apart for the sake af another couple of thousand a year.

 

[MG11]

So, 1999 - some years ago when self employed, here were (roughly) the prices on Northern Spirit's (MTL) Transpennine Express.

£1 Coffee Tea Hot Choc
£2 Stella (500ml)
£0.70 Mars Twix Snickers Kitkat
£0.50 Crisps
£1.70-2.20 Sandwiches
£1 Peanuts
£2.50 Spirits - Miniatures
£3 Wine QB

Profitable? We sold a fortune. Well marketed, bulk amounts ram-packed into the old (br, flatbed) trolleys. Normally leave with 8 sleeves of coffees.

I do look at the modern contraptions and laugh, what an unstable, top heavy, low capacity / sold-out mess. The only good thing on it is the Epos (subject to it working).

And. My till had a bell. The novelty wore off one day, so I had a fight with it on the way to Appleby and the bell went out the window of a 156 near Dent.

Very interesting prices, thanks for sharing. I guess that would have been a premium price back then

 

[Bromley boy]

Hot and cold water urns could not be too expensive. And a drain in the floor to carry away spills.
Add a vending machine that sells teabags and overpriced china mugs in cute souvenir boxes for those who forgot to bring their own. Add the obligatory elf safety notice ("Children are advised to refrain from scalding themselves to death").
Real rocket science engineering stuff this.
It works for the Russians, why not us?

Self service urns of scalding hot water on moving trains sound like a really practical, safety conscious idea for Britain’s railways.

You should immediately write to your local TOC and suggest it.

 

[Busaholic]

Catering on trains is all too staid. What is needed is differential pricing, as with rail fares: it'd keep everyone on their toes, and might result in a few more threats of prosecution or BTP being called. Basically, on all those trains where people are paying hundreds of pounds for a humdrum journey between Manchester and London, say, at peak times, then they're obviously rich gets who should be strung for every penny() the TOC can get out of them, so why not £10 for a cup of tea (cash only, extra £2 by card): on the other hand, the one person on the train who's somehow managed to get a SuperAdvance for £13.50 for the same journey should only pay 10p per cup. To make it more exciting, you could make it the other way round of course, and an absolute essential (apart from the scrutiny of your ticket by the catering staff, so they know how much to charge you) would be that passengers (sorry, customers) were all too aware of the staggering differences in price and could have heated arguments about it all the way, perhaps with polystyrene cups of lukewarm coloured water being thrown around. Commuting would be far less dull and it'd be another way of enticing people from their cars: well, about as much as the original suggestion, anyway.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

You can't have a hot drink on a train without a Thermos. Also its not a good idea to make different hot drinks in the same one because of the potential for cross-contamination of coffee with everything else you might put in it later. So, to me, the cost of potentially lots of different Thermos flasks, the time and inconvenience of remembering to fill it up and then having to carry it around all day, even after its empty mean I never bother with it. Thus a hot drink on a Scotrail train for only £1.60 represents great value as it saves all of that bother and is inexpensive. The same fairly small very basic cup of tea for double the price does not fly, however.

Oh I forgot about hot drinks - mainly because I never have them; I use a plastic water bottle - re-filled from the tap at home...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh I forgot about hot drinks - mainly because I never have them; I use a plastic water bottle - re-filled from the tap at home...

I do that for water (it's actually a stainless steel[1] one in my case) and often take a flask for coffee.

[1] Used to be ally but I was getting headaches.

 

[185]

Very interesting prices, thanks for sharing. I guess that would have been a premium price back then

Hardly, I'd say. Back then, for Coffee - Virgin were still £1.90, the stations £1.80 to £2 and we were half their prices, and the passengers knew we'd be there. We made a roaring trade by being cheap. (National Express coaches were 60p, only they could beat us).

 

[Chrisgr31]

I'd be more likely to buy from a trolley if...

1. It was near-guaranteed to be there (this is the most important), and ALWAYS on the PIS if for any reason it was not
2. It had enough stock of what I wanted
3. It sold quality products - such as decent filter coffee and actually cold premium bottled beers and ciders

4. It was at a reasonable price
5. Clear, visible price list

The whole strategy of online and at station catering seems designed to put off as many shoppers as possible. You have a captive market and therefore it would seem that it should be relatively easy to sell lots of product. However instead inflated prices are charged and its just as easy for potential customers to go to the nearest Sainsbury or Tesco local.

Boots manage to sell an adequate Tuna sandwich for a pound, most supermarkets do a meal deal for less than £4, so I am not going to spend £4 or more for a sandwich, £1.50 or more for a bottle of drink and £1 for a bag of crisps on a train.

Having to buy your food and drinks before boarding is a pain, you have to carry or drag your bag round the shop, you then have to try and get your ticket out and out it through the barrier whilst juggling your food and luggage etc.

It would be much easier to buy it on the train but you need to be able to guarantee it will be there, and a price which is acceptable.

Bearing in mind the supermarkets and Boots can do reasonable deals surely a solution would be for the trolleys to sell own brand goods from one of the supermarkets? Would be a trusted product and a premium could be charged. Stocking would be relatively simple as it could be done from a store near the stations on the line. If the trolley was short of food they could phone a store near a station the train stops at fr them to bring out additional stock.

I think trusted products at a reasonable price, accepted a markup is needed from supermarket prices, for convenience. I also think there need to be clear price lists displayed on the train. Some people wont buy as they dont know the price.

 

[Statto]

4. It was at a reasonable price
5. Clear, visible price list

The whole strategy of online and at station catering seems designed to put off as many shoppers as possible. You have a captive market and therefore it would seem that it should be relatively easy to sell lots of product. However instead inflated prices are charged and its just as easy for potential customers to go to the nearest Sainsbury or Tesco local.

Boots manage to sell an adequate Tuna sandwich for a pound, most supermarkets do a meal deal for less than £4, so I am not going to spend £4 or more for a sandwich, £1.50 or more for a bottle of drink and £1 for a bag of crisps on a train.

Having to buy your food and drinks before boarding is a pain, you have to carry or drag your bag round the shop, you then have to try and get your ticket out and out it through the barrier whilst juggling your food and luggage etc.

It would be much easier to buy it on the train but you need to be able to guarantee it will be there, and a price which is acceptable.

Bearing in mind the supermarkets and Boots can do reasonable deals surely a solution would be for the trolleys to sell own brand goods from one of the supermarkets? Would be a trusted product and a premium could be charged. Stocking would be relatively simple as it could be done from a store near the stations on the line. If the trolley was short of food they could phone a store near a station the train stops at fr them to bring out additional stock.

I think trusted products at a reasonable price, accepted a markup is needed from supermarket prices, for convenience. I also think there need to be clear price lists displayed on the train. Some people wont buy as they dont know the price.

The last sentence sums it up, i won't buy any food & drink from WH Smiths because of the ridiculous markups they have on there items, think maybe around the £2 mark for one 500ml bottle of soft drink, many main stations have a Boots or now Sainsbury's with more reasonable markups, such as Boots at stations about around the £1.40 mark for a one 500ml bottle of soft drink, plus will have meal deals sandwich/snack/drink at reasonable prices.

Most of the time nowadays i'll stock up before i travel much cheaper than the overpriced trolley with limited items, even if i was in a rural area they'll be a shop not far away which will still be reasonable prices