'No room' on train for Paralympian

[Bletchleyite]

Ok, I can agree with you here. I think having adequate capacity is a utopian dream. I get the impression there isn't enough space on the lines to run a large enough number of trains on the busiest routes, and making them longer is problematic if the platforms aren't long enough and trains would end up sticking out and interfering with points.

The only thing I can think of is if companies start locating their offices in big cities other than London to spread the load of commuting, but given that London is a prestige address for a company head office, I can't see how that is going to happen any time soon.

There are far more capacity issues in the North than the South East. And in the South East, there's often another train along soon enough.

 

[Llanigraham]

There has to be good cause though surely? Removing someone for simply standing in an area of the train because its busy would potentially infringe that person's own rights, particularly if they had already been on the service prior to the stop where a disabled person wishes to board.

I think you will find that if a Guard asks you to do something and you refuse, then he has every right to call BTP and get you removed from the train. That is "good cause".

Certainly happened at Wolverhapton the other Saturday.

 

[6Gman]

As you say, it’s one thing BTP doing it, although that assumes they’re nearby, not doing something more important, and interested. I don’t believe it’s for anyone else to do, except in emergency. From a conflict avoidance point of view it’s definitely not a good idea, and I wonder how far a company would support a member of staff assaulted in that situation.

I think you will find that if a Guard asks you to do something and you refuse, then he has every right to call BTP and get you removed from the train. That is "good cause".

Certainly happened at Wolverhapton the other Saturday.

Indeed. Going back to the luggage/ passenger in the wheelchair scenario By-laws 10(2), 13 1 (ii), 19 (potentially) and 24 (2) offer all the powers needed and - potentially - allow railway staff to use reasonable force to remove said passenger (though I appreciate TOC policies may not generally sanction the use of this power).

[The last time I encountered a TM seeking BTP assistance three of them were waiting for her ... and for the scrote who had profered a false address ...]

 

[Tetchytyke]

the Police ought to be involved where such situations arise, which suggests that they would see fare paying customers taken off trains against their will.

If they won't- rather than can't- move themselves and their suitcases out of the wheelchair bay, then I do not see an issue with this. Just as "fare paying customers" who smoke, for instance, are removed.

 

[bramling]

Indeed. Going back to the luggage/ passenger in the wheelchair scenario By-laws 10(2), 13 1 (ii), 19 (potentially) and 24 (2) offer all the powers needed and - potentially - allow railway staff to use reasonable force to remove said passenger (though I appreciate TOC policies may not generally sanction the use of this power).

[The last time I encountered a TM seeking BTP assistance three of them were waiting for her ... and for the scrote who had profered a false address ...]

As I say, involve BTP to heart’s content - subject to the proviso that one can look a total fool if you threaten BTP and then they never show for whatever reason - which can be quite likely even if you’ve been given assurance they will be there.

But I reiterate it’s *not* a good idea for staff to try using force to move people or interfering with belongings. Likewise it’s not good for other passengers to do it either - in both cases a conflict situation is highly likely to develop, which is quite likely to be regarded as unnecessary. It may cause delay, it may cause an assault, and if the latter happens then apart from a staff member being assaulted which is bad enough, that staff member may well then be unavailable for duty for some time after, which could result in uncovered duties, cancellations etc. It’s simply not worth all this just to enforce a disabled space, no matter how technically and/or morally wrong the original misdemeanour was.

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm not sure how many posters on this thread realise how few BTP officers there are and how thinly they're spread.

Asking them to turn up to evict a passenger who is occupying a disabled bay would result in a very, very long delay indeed and simply wouldn't be practical, especially in the south east.

 

[bramling]

One public address message stating that this train will not be moving because of three people in couch X who refuse to move to allow a disabled passenger on board would solve everything. Probably even a message asking for any police on board to make their way to car number X as three passengers were delaying the train would do it.

Maybe, as long as you can repeat it in about 15 different languages. In the London area, at least.

 

[bramling]

I think you will find that if a Guard asks you to do something and you refuse, then he has every right to call BTP and get you removed from the train. That is "good cause".

Yes. But he may well also find himself on the receiving end of a please explain for the delay. The good cause better be a good enough cause worth causing a delay for.

 

[maire23]

Or if you’re travelling on some services (I’m naming no names) if you’re a wheelchair passenger who has moved from a seat back to their wheelchair as you do not feel safe remaining in your seat because of your disability you still get told to move out of your wheelchair and stand because there’s now no seats free and someone else needs it more......
and said train company tells you that everyone who is able to do so must get out of their wheelchair and occupy a seat.... and that they can’t do anything about your safety because if you get out of your wheelchair at any point you have to stay out of it regardless of whether it is unsafe to do so!!! Moral of the story is that some train companies consider wheelchair users to be unauthorised blockers of wheelchair spaces.......
I’m surprised at Virgin though. They are one of the better companies who allow me to transfer between seat and chair as they have said my safety is paramount and if I feel safer in my chair I must be allowed to switch between the 2. Their staff also usually have fantastic disability awareness.

 

[Bantamzen]

You would be wrong then.

Is there a link to any legislation that allows the BTP to remove someone from a train for standing in a disabled area when a train is full?

 

[6Gman]

Is there a link to any legislation that allows the BTP to remove someone from a train for standing in a disabled area when a train is full?

I quoted the relevant bylaws upthread. 10(2) and 13 I (ii) cover standing in the disabled area; 24 (2) covers the power of removal (which covers railway staff as well as BTP).

 

[TheEdge]

I'm not sure how many posters on this thread realise how few BTP officers there are and how thinly they're spread.

Asking them to turn up to evict a passenger who is occupying a disabled bay would result in a very, very long delay indeed and simply wouldn't be practical, especially in the south east.

Cleary very few do. I've had times where I called the BTP to Norwich and the nearest officers were in Peterborough...

 

[WatcherZero]

Has she? I can't see a tweet saying that. And I've looked.

Tweet saying a moment of anger, now been edited to ‘a moment in time’
https://twitter.com/Tanni_GT/status/944585813077188608?s=17

Tweets saying train was packed.
https://twitter.com/Tanni_GT/status/944622092749766659?s=17
https://twitter.com/Tanni_GT/status/944625229678235650?s=17
https://twitter.com/Tanni_GT/status/944696940817797120?s=17
https://twitter.com/Tanni_GT/status/944698172349218816?s=17
https://twitter.com/Tanni_GT/status/944698345028767745?s=17

Shes also replied to other people that she booked a seat on the train but didnt give disabled notice as she didnt feel it was right that she had too when cyclists didnt. Virgin replied that they dont need 24 hours notification, if you tell them your in a wheelchair when you book they can accomodate you right up to 15 min before departure.

 

[AlterEgo]

Tweet saying a moment of anger, now been edited to ‘a moment in time’
https://twitter.com/Tanni_GT/status/944585813077188608?s=17

Must be some confusion with that one as tweets can’t be edited.

 

[WatcherZero]

You can delete and republish. Some twitter clients even have it as a asingle press button function.

 

[Cheds]

Cheds here. Some of you may remember that I have a severe learning disability (so my dad writes this) and am sometimes, shall we say, a little unsteady.
We use VTWC often and yes, station staff (particularly further north) and on train staff are consistently good. I help myself by pre booking wherever possible (which is just sensible..). For walk ups, I've been on a train once which was full and someone offered a seat quickly for me (dad stood up, but that's fair enough). Just once I had a pre booked seat which someone else was in and wouldn't move. Staff gave me a seat in first, which was nice. For that sort of thing, maybe BTP could greet people when they get OFF the train. That would give time to get organised and delay the person not the train. A few stories like that might get the word round,

My Dad always thinks the label people use (able bodied, special needs, handicapped even) is rather lesss important than what they actually do and how they treat you, by the way. So thank you to the people above for the debate about not 'able bodied' - we just took it as people who can't stand up for a long time, which is I think what was meant.

And a happy new year to all.

 

[sefton]

Yes. But he may well also find himself on the receiving end of a please explain for the delay. The good cause better be a good enough cause worth causing a delay for.

To which the reply is they were ensuring the company was meeting its commitment to disabled customers and it is unfortunate BTP is short staffed but this incident has highlighted how management need to address that issue with BTP which caused the delay.

 

[Bantamzen]

I quoted the relevant bylaws upthread. 10(2) and 13 I (ii) cover standing in the disabled area; 24 (2) covers the power of removal (which covers railway staff as well as BTP).

Those sections don't fully answer the question though. What if a train is already full with passengers with valid tickets whilst stood in a disabled area and there is nowhere else for them to go? The sections do not specifically require a member of crew or BTP to detrain someone in this situation, they simply state that persons shall not remain there. But if there is nowhere else to go, what should other passengers do? As I said, BTP do not have at least the resources and with view of this possibly no moral, possibly legal mandate to do so. All crews cab do in situations like this is to try and ask if passengers would be willing to detrain. Hauling someone off would almost certainly see media coverage, maybe even legal action against the TOC and/or BTP.

 

[AlterEgo]

All crews cab do in situations like this is to try and ask if passengers would be willing to detrain. Hauling someone off would almost certainly see media coverage, maybe even legal action against the TOC and/or BTP.

The thing is, what if the person being hauled off has a disability, particularly an invisible one?

 

[sefton]

What if a train is already full with passengers with valid tickets whilst stood in a disabled area and there is nowhere else for them to go?

There is always somewhere to move to. It may not be comfortable, but tough. Don't like it and argue with BTP, then they have their legal justification to remove you from the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The thing is, what if the person being hauled off has a disability, particularly an invisible one?

They could, er, say so?

 

[Bantamzen]

There is always somewhere to move to. It may not be comfortable, but tough. Don't like it and argue with BTP, then they have their legal justification to remove you from the train.

Tough? What if as suggested the person being thrown off has their own disability? What if the service was the only one they could use to complete their journey? What if they would be left vulnerable? They should be treated as criminals and dragged from the train? This is not some nightclub we are talking about here, this is a public service and the TOCs have responsibility for all it's passengers. If for some reason some disadvantaged people are unable to board because of chronic overcrowding it is the TOC's responsibility to try and make alternative arrangements, not simply shut down a service (and possibly others) until the BTP come along to drag passengers off the train.

I know this may not seem fair, but disabled people in need of assistance and/or a disabled space are encouraged to contact the TOC prior to travelling / boarding to try and prevent such instances occurring. On many of our nation's trains a walk up service for many able bodied people means shoehorning themselves onto a packed unit, which will make it all the more difficult for those using chairs, sticks or even cycles or suitcases. Until there is sufficent capacity to allivate such congestion issues, then there will always be problems I'm afraid.

 

[AlterEgo]

They could, er, say so?

They may not be able to say so. They might have a learning disability for example, or a mental disability.

 

[al78]

They could, er, say so?

But anyone could say so, whether it is true or not. Is a guard really going to question them and ask for proof beyond reasonable doubt?

 

[sefton]

Tough? What if as suggested the person being thrown off has their own disability? What if the service was the only one they could use to complete their journey? What if they would be left vulnerable? They should be treated as criminals and dragged from the train? This is not some nightclub we are talking about here, this is a public service and the TOCs have responsibility for all it's passengers. If for some reason some disadvantaged people are unable to board because of chronic overcrowding it is the TOC's responsibility to try and make alternative arrangements, not simply shut down a service (and possibly others) until the BTP come along to drag passengers off the train.

I know this may not seem fair, but disabled people in need of assistance and/or a disabled space are encouraged to contact the TOC prior to travelling / boarding to try and prevent such instances occurring. On many of our nation's trains a walk up service for many able bodied people means shoehorning themselves onto a packed unit, which will make it all the more difficult for those using chairs, sticks or even cycles or suitcases. Until there is sufficent capacity to allivate such congestion issues, then there will always be problems I'm afraid.

The point you are missing is there was plenty of room on the train as many other (able bodied) people got on.

Trains are never completely full, so yes if someone will not move to allow a disabled person to use the wheelchair space, then tough - choose between moving to somewhere less comfortable or standing on the platform and wait for the next train.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Tweet saying a moment of anger, now been edited to ‘a moment in time’

You can't edit tweets.

Tweets saying train was packed.

She said the train was busy, but that everyone else on the platform managed to get on it.

There is always somewhere to move to. It may not be comfortable, but tough. Don't like it and argue with BTP, then they have their legal justification to remove you from the train.

In extreme cases the train will be crush loaded. Nobody expects people on a crush loaded train to get off.

But 99/100 the "packed" train has loads of room on board, it's just that people won't move down the aisle and won't move out of the relative comfort of the perch seats in disabled areas. There's nearly always somewhere to move to.

 

[sefton]

In extreme cases the train will be crush loaded. Nobody expects people on a crush loaded train to get off.

But 99/100 the "packed" train has loads of room on board, it's just that people won't move down the aisle and won't move out of the relative comfort of the perch seats in disabled areas. There's nearly always somewhere to move to.

Had exactly that at New Street a couple of weeks back. Delayed train rolls in, try to get on but everyone in vestibule claims it is 'full'. I have seen that there are only half a dozen people actually stood in the carriage but have to argue and make people move so I can get through to stand there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They may not be able to say so. They might have a learning disability for example, or a mental disability.

I find this line rather ridiculous, as the ultimate end of it is the abuse of these facilities by those who do not need them. Were I unable to say so I would likely carry some kind of card saying so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But anyone could say so, whether it is true or not. Is a guard really going to question them and ask for proof beyond reasonable doubt?

Few people are brazen enough to lie about having a disability to someone’s face.

 

[AlterEgo]

I find this line rather ridiculous. Were I unable to say so I would likely carry some kind of card saying so.

I’ve never known it to happen where a person was removed from a disabled space. However I can recall a few incidents where passengers have been left at stations or been denied something for whatever reason, only to later discover they have a disability which wasn’t mentioned at the time.

As an example I can recall a Crohn’s sufferer on a train with no functioning loo being denied a toilet stop very shortly afer the train had already made one, and then having an accident. It turned out that the person was also on the autistic spectrum and had a panic and didn’t mention their Crohn’s at the time.