Huddersfield-Penistone - Worst route in the country for non-collection of fares?

[70014IronDuke]

I've just been looking at the Huddersfield-Penistone(-Barnsley) line's passenger figures for 2016-17. It's not a line I've ever been over (bar the short bit at Penistone that was shared with the Woodhead route of yore) - and I was just looking at the timings between stations and wondering how the hell the conductor-guard (or is he/she just a conductor?) can possibliy collect all the fares on busy trains? Most of the stops are a mere 3 minutes apart, and trying to go through all the safety checks at stops and collect fares must be a nightmare on anything but the lightest of loaded trains?

It made me wonder how waht percentage of fares go uncollected on this route - and if it is one of the worst in the country for missing revenues simply because the conductor only has time to approach a small proportion of passengers in the rush hours. And I can't imagine it can be much fun trying to get fares on Friday and Saturday night late departures from Barnsley or Huddersfield either.

Still, I'm sure the well-travelled, experienced contributors in here will have a few rivals for missing farebox income.

 

[yorkie]

Most of the stops are a mere 3 minutes apart, and trying to go through all the safety checks at stops and collect fares must be a nightmare on anything but the lightest of loaded trains?

There are loads of lines like this, and unless you have a person on board dedicated to collecting fares, there isn't much that can be done.

People have written to Northern offering to pay uncollected fares, and Northern just say not to worry about it. The exception to this is when Northern's contractors, such as Carlisle Security, are at the destination station. If that happens, they ask passengers whose fares were not collected for their names and addresses and send a bill for a single fare. The customer then has to incur postage or non-standard rate telephone costs in order to pay. If the customer wanted a return they have to incur further costs disputing the amount.

 

[70014IronDuke]

There are loads of lines like this, and unless you have a person on board dedicated to collecting fares, there isn't much that can be done.

People have written to Northern offering to pay uncollected fares, and Northern just say not to worry about it. The exception to this is when Northern's contractors are at the destination station. If that happens, they ask passengers whose fares were not collected for their names and addresses and send a bill for a single fare. The customer then has to incur postage or non-standard rate telephone costs in order to pay. If the customer wanted a return they have to incur further costs disputing the amount.

Are there? (Sorry, I so rarely travel by train north of London these days). Why is this allowed? I mean, is it because the local PTEs subsidise services anyway, so (in this case) NT just shrugs its shoulders and takes what it can and reckons it's not worth the bother of chasing to hard? But in that case, it distorts the whole market, and planners can't see the true traffic flows, and plan accordingly?
In the case of Huddersfield - Penistone, we are talking of 10 stations - 11 sections - between the two main stations. That's in about 45 minutes travel time. So four minutes per section. And the conductor-guard must need a minute's breather now and then too. What percentage of fares are lost over such sections? Have there been any studies done?
It seems barmy to me.

 

[Adam0984]

During the morning up until lunchtime I believe most have an assistant revenue collector who can wander up and down collecting fares plus the guard can do as many as they can between letting people on and off

 

[yorkie]

What percentage of fares are lost over such sections? Have there been any studies done?

​

No idea but it's not just limited to Northern. It's a similar scenario on the Welsh Valley Lines. Some of them have even greater frequency of stations, with just 1 or 2 minutes between stops.

It would be similar on the Glasgow suburban network, but most of these have a member of staff who is dedicated to ticket sales, so they can continue checking and selling fares without interruption, regardless of stations called at. There are plans for the same or similar approach to be adopted on Northern (as discussed in other threads, e.g. this one).

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

​

No idea but it's not just limited to Northern. It's a similar scenario on the Welsh Valley Lines. Some of them have even greater frequency of stations, with just 1 or 2 minutes between stops.

It would be similar on the Glasgow suburban network, but most of these have a member of staff who is dedicated to ticket sales, so they can continue checking and selling fares without interruption, regardless of stations called at. There are plans for the same or similar approach to be adopted on Northern (as discussed in other threads, e.g. this one).

Not to mention that there are plenty of booking offices around the Strathclyde network. The trick is in persuading a reasonable number of passengers to use them, thus leaving the TE free to deal with fares from those stations without facilities. Indeed even on Northern's network there are plenty of stations with a booking office open for at least some of the day even if some passengers avoid using them. But the ideal solution will involve far too much joined up thinking for this country.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Travelled off peak in November - quite a busy train- conductor impressively caught all the fares.

 

[sheff1]

In my experience on that line the majority of passengers will be approached for ticket checking/selling. This contrasts with my experience in SE London or on lines such as Havant to Brighton where passengers travelling between open stations seem to be approached very rarely.

 

[LowLevel]

Northern are very prescriptive about their door operation which doesn't help the guards get around. On our trains we are basically left to work as required with the exception of slam door trains which have dispatch positions and I would imagine that we get about much more efficiently.

On a 2 car train stopping at a 10 car platform I know it's on and I can see myself away from where I like. I would expect the driver to buzz me if the platform had been stolen by aliens.

On busy trains at night it's usually at the back. In the day at local stops where I am picking everyone up and have good sighting of the entrance/exit there's often no one left on the platform so I go from the front or middle. My judgement has seen me through so far!

 

[Iskra]

Often two conductors on these services. But there is an obvious hardcore of folk that don’t want to pay especially between Sheffield-Meadowhall-Chapeltown-Barnsley, that seem to get away with it a lot by boarding at the front of the 3-coach trains, giving a solo conductor little chance on any train that is over half full in my experience.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I use the Sheffield-Penistone-Huddersfield route on a semi-regular basis, usually off-peak admittedly, and it is most unusual not to have a ticket check within a reasonable distance. Additional ticket sellers on three-car Class 144s in the mornings as noted above.

Certainly not the worst Northern route for revenue protection in my experience, at least if you are travelling a moderate distance. (Sheffield <-> Meadowhall doesn't count.)

[Edit: Meant to add that the long-standing Community Rail culture on the route has been a positive influence on both staff motivation and passenger willingness to pay to support 'their' line, even to the extent of discreetly drawing attention to less-forthcoming travellers.]

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I will admit its a bit tight between Huddersfield and Brockholes as there is only three minutes between stations, but one way to collect fares would be to install ticket machines which accept both cash and card.

 

[alansheppard77]

All the more reason to have drivers operating the doors

 

[Graeme]

Got on a 3-car 144 at Brockholes bound for Sheffield on Saturday morning. Guard doing doors and selling tickets. He only had time to serve me before arriving at Stocksmoor as i was paying by card but the ticket machine wouldn't work in the tunnel and then didn't like my card a couple of times once the signal had been restored.

He missed some passengers in the rear and middle cars out after leaving Barnsley, mentioning that he wanted to catch those who had decided to sit in the front car, possibiy with the intention of not paying.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's got better on this route since the barriers went in at Huddersfield. Some still try to chance it knowing they'll only have to pay if the gates are in operation, which they aren't always during off-peak times. One problem with the barriers though, is if the guard hasn't been able to get down you'll be stuck with the scrum around the one poor staff member who drew the short straw and has the hand-held ticket machine!

 

[MG11]

It's got better on this route since the barriers went in at Huddersfield. Some still try to chance it knowing they'll only have to pay if the gates are in operation, which they aren't always during off-peak times. One problem with the barriers though, is if the guard hasn't been able to get down you'll be stuck with the scrum around the one poor staff member who drew the short straw and has the hand-held ticket machine!

According to a very old newspaper article, Huddersfield is manned by Revenue Protection Officers. In many cases, "chancers" would be interviewed under caution and MG11d, especially for deliberate evasion that you allude to. It's not simply a case of "paying up if you get caught". That's whst makes RPOs so great, they can actually take things further than just an excess fare.

 

[xotGD]

According to a very old newspaper article, Huddersfield is manned by Revenue Protection Officers. In many cases, "chancers" would be interviewed under caution and MG11d, especially for deliberate evasion that you allude to. It's not simply a case of "paying up if you get caught". That's whst makes RPOs so great, they can actually take things further than just an excess fare.

So someone who gets on at a station with no ticket machine, chooses to sit in the front carriage (perhaps because it is closest to the exit at Hudds) and then is unable to buy a ticket on the train because the guard never makes it out of the back carriage should be interviewed under caution when they ask to buy a ticket at the barriers at Hudds?

 

[craigybagel]

If Northern bothered to fit their stock with extra door controls and let their guards use them (like most other TOCs) their conductors would be able to do a lot more then they can at the moment - tied by a regulatory bungee chord to the rear most set of doors.

 

[MG11]

So someone who gets on at a station with no ticket machine, chooses to sit in the front carriage (perhaps because it is closest to the exit at Hudds) and then is unable to buy a ticket on the train because the guard never makes it out of the back carriage should be interviewed under caution when they ask to buy a ticket at the barriers at Hudds?

It depends, if the person says they boarded at a station with no machine but RPOs are doing a block at that station that day, then the RPO would have reason to believe they are evading. RPOs will know if a block is being done atma station on the route.

The people who I was referring to was the "chancers" as previously mentioned. These are people who deliberately set out to evade the fare due.

 

[mwmbwls]

Somewhere in the attic of my memory I recall a requirement for the guard to always ride in the back set of a two x two car train formation - 2 x 150, 2x 142 etc. Is the correct? If so what is the rationale?

 

[MG11]

Somewhere in the attic of my memory I recall a requirement for the guard to always ride in the back set of a two x two car train formation - 2 x 150, 2x 142 etc. Is the correct? If so what is the rationale?

IIRC, the rear part of the 2nd car on a DMU is the door to despatch from, so on one unit, it will be the rear, on 2 multiple units, it will be the middle. I think is different on high speed DMUs, i.e. Meridians though, for some reason.

 

[roversfan2001]

IIRC, the rear part of the 2nd car on a DMU is the door to despatch from, so on one unit, it will be the rear, on 2 multiple units, it will be the middle. I think is different on high speed DMUs, i.e. Meridians though, for some reason.

IME on Northern it's always the rear door, meaning that whenever there is no corridor connection between the two units then the front unit doesn't have a guard present. I have noticed an increase in the number of services with a third member of staff on-board though

 

[InOban]

In Glasgow nearly everyone is travelling to the central stations which have gates. Most stations I've used have had ticket offices, and I've also usually had a ticket inspector. I think that there's no doubt that, when gates were installed by the previous TOC, revenue on several lines rose significantly.

 

[Andyh82]

IME on Northern it's always the rear door, meaning that whenever there is no corridor connection between the two units then the front unit doesn't have a guard present. I have noticed an increase in the number of services with a third member of staff on-board though

Thinking about the dispute at the moment, I'm surprised the RMT ever agreed to that and didn't expect a guard in each part of a train without a corridor connection, either that or lock one half out of use

 

[craigybagel]

IME on Northern it's always the rear door, meaning that whenever there is no corridor connection between the two units then the front unit doesn't have a guard present. I have noticed an increase in the number of services with a third member of staff on-board though

Not quite.

The rule at Northern is that you can't dispatch from the front - middle or rear is fine. The problem is, because Northern never installed extra door controls in their BR era DMUs, for all DMUs (except 158s) the only door controls are at the extreme ends - and as guards aren't allowed use the ones at the front, that only leaves them with the ones at the back.

Where two DMUs are coupled together, that can dispatch from the front of the rear set (ie the middle of the train) - and the same goes for their EMUs which in general do have more controls. On the 319s for example, which had door controls fitted at every single door when they were modded for Northern, they can dispatch from any door rearwards of a certain point (I think it's the rear most set of doors in the second car from through front IIRC).

 

[roversfan2001]

Not quite.

The rule at Northern is that you can't dispatch from the front - middle or rear is fine. The problem is, because Northern never installed extra door controls in their BR era DMUs, for all DMUs (except 158s) the only door controls are at the extreme ends - and as guards aren't allowed use the ones at the front, that only leaves them with the ones at the back.

Where two DMUs are coupled together, that can dispatch from the front of the rear set (ie the middle of the train) - and the same goes for their EMUs which in general do have more controls. On the 319s for example, which had door controls fitted at every single door when they were modded for Northern, they can dispatch from any door rearwards of a certain point (I think it's the rear most set of doors in the second car from through front IIRC).

That's quite interesting, thanks. I've only ever seen the guard dispatch from the rear set of doors but it's not really something I look out for.

 

[Spankthemonkey]

Sections of the Brum suburban/cross city lines are like this, very high rates of fare evasion.

 

[LowLevel]

IIRC, the rear part of the 2nd car on a DMU is the door to despatch from, so on one unit, it will be the rear, on 2 multiple units, it will be the middle. I think is different on high speed DMUs, i.e. Meridians though, for some reason.

It's a train operating company specific instruction. As you mentioned Meridians EMT only prescribe dispatch positions for the HST sets (and possibly some long 222 lashups, I don't sign them).

Otherwise it's left up to the guard.

Northern specify much more rigourously where their crews should work from for train dispatch. So on EMT services you'll often see staff dispatching from the front of the train and you won't on Northern except for local door long train short platform working.

 

[ajdunlop]

Why doesn't every station in the country that doesn't have always open ticket offices or TVMs have a 'permit to travel' machine? They must be really cheap as they just print a time on a permit. Make having a ticket or PTT mandatory. That way revenue is collected even if never checked and if a check is done the passenger can be charged the correct fare (not just claim they got on at the last stop when they didn't). Might even be possible these days to have PTT machines that have a cheap 3G module in them that would allow Contactless payment so no cash wouldn't be an excuse.

Even better would be if there was an oyster style system where everyone would have to tap in and out (and therefore have paid) being found on a train without a tapped in card would be an offence.

 

[yorkie]

Sections of the Brum suburban/cross city lines are like this, very high rates of fare evasion.

Complete opposites scenarios.

In the case of the Cross City line, I believe most stations do have facilities to issue tickets, but most of the time there is no-one checking tickets on the train.

In contrast, the Penistone line sees staff trying their best to sell tickets to as many people as possible, but due to the lack of facilities at most stations, and the short stops between stations, not always being able to.

Why doesn't every station in the country that doesn't have always open ticket offices or TVMs have a 'permit to travel' machine? They must be really cheap as they just print a time on a permit. Make having a ticket or PTT mandatory. That way revenue is collected even if never checked and if a check is done the passenger can be charged the correct fare (not just claim they got on at the last stop when they didn't). Might even be possible these days to have PTT machines that have a cheap 3G module in them that would allow Contactless payment so no cash wouldn't be an excuse.

There are thousands of stations. How much do you think this would cost to implement (including CCTV)? Don't forget the total cost of ownership, ie the ongoing maintenance, collection of cash etc.

Even better would be if there was an oyster style system where everyone would have to tap in and out (and therefore have paid) being found on a train without a tapped in card would be an offence.

Feel free to make a new thread if you think you can make a British-wide system that works in the same way. Let us know what the maximum fare would be, what the maximum journey times would be, how the zones would be arranged, and what would happen if people don't tap out