'No room' on train for Paralympian

[47802]

I've heard some stuff in my time, but goodness me, that's a corker.

You may think its a corker and perhaps goes against a lot of politically correct nonsense we have in this country but I am serious, I also happen to know a wheelchair user and she finds the idea of using either the train or the bus an option of last resort.

 

[Bromley boy]

You may think its a corker and perhaps goes against a lot of politically correct nonsense we have in this country but I am serious, I also happen to know a wheelchair user and she finds the idea of using either the train or the bus an option of last resort.

Many able bodied people also consider the train or bus to be options of last resort.

I'm afraid your suggestion is indeed a "corker". How on earth do you believe a "countrywide bespoke subsidised Taxi service for disabled Travellers" - in lieu of adaptions to public transport - would make any kind of sense from a financial or practical perspective?!

 

[Darandio]

Personally I think the whole thing is complete nonsense instead of spending fortune trying to make Trains/Buses/Stations wheelchair compatible etc, I think we would have been better using the money instead to develop a countrywide bespoke subsidised Taxi service for disabled Travellers.

How does this work then? I assume as the money wasn't spent on compatibility then the wheelchair user isn't allowed on the train?

So taking a simple example, a train can get me from Darlington to Kings Cross in 2hr 40m or thereabouts, but on your system I have to take a 5hr taxi journey?

 

[Tetchytyke]

You may think its a corker and perhaps goes against a lot of politically correct nonsense we have in this country

Nothing about "political correctness" and everything to do about practicality.

I sometimes need to be in London for a 10am meeting with my colleague. They are in York. They can get the train and be there in 100 minutes. The "expensive adaptation" is a ramp. But under your genius plan, you're going to buy a taxi, adapt it for wheelchair use, and then make them have a 5-6 hour journey instead. Who will pay for this, who knows.

Of course infrastructure adapations such as ramps and lifts aren't just used by people in wheelchairs. Parents of young children and those with heavy luggage also fully benefit. Not to mention station staff moving equipment around the station, or even loading the catering trolley on to the train. Will you be paying for their taxi too?

All these daft ideas to solve a problem that doesn't exist, just because the bus enthusiasts wish we still got to use the Bristol VR.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

We do not know that, your presumption is not helpful. All we actually know is that the would be passenger could/did not travel.
It is not actually possible to know from the train door that the designated space is occupied.
Have you tried it against a rammed vestibule? No of course you haven't!

Not sure how you presume to know what I have or have not done. I have travelled on plenty of crowded trains. I have worked plenty of overcrowded trains. All TOCs are mandated within their franchise agreements to have some sort of Disabled Persons Protection Policy. Such policies certainly don't say it's ok to accommodate all waiting passengers except the one in the wheelchair. The problem with longer Inter-City services is having just a single guard to manage the whole train. On shorter trains, such as those I am experienced in working, in such a situation I would very quickly have been able to direct any standing passengers who were blocking access to the wheelchair space to move, albeit temporarily, to the platform to allow the wheelchair-bound passenger to board. Indeed I have done precisely that on many occasions though of course it is often necessary to reassure any passengers so directed that they will certainly be allowed back on the train and that it would not depart without them. My suspicion, given that Lady G-T's tweets didn't mention them, is that the Train Manager had no involvement in this incident and therefore nobody was actively managing the situation. And so selfishness ruled.

She said later she would have been happy to sit in the vestibule, the woman in the door was insisting there was not enough room for her to board though which gives an indication of the level of crowding on the service. It may have been physically impossible for her wheelchair to make it to the disabled space even if it wasn't occupied.

As above it requires assertive crowd management by rail staff. It appears this was sadly lacking in this situation. I do not accept "impossible" as all other intending passengers were able to board. People confined to a wheelchair have enough challenges to deal with in life without having to deal with apartheid on public transport.

 

[47802]

Nothing about "political correctness" and everything to do about practicality.

I sometimes need to be in London for a 10am meeting with my colleague. They are in York. They can get the train and be there in 100 minutes. The "expensive adaptation" is a ramp. But under your genius plan, you're going to buy a taxi, adapt it for wheelchair use, and then make them have a 5-6 hour journey instead. Who will pay for this, who knows.

Of course infrastructure adapations such as ramps and lifts aren't just used by people in wheelchairs. Parents of young children and those with heavy luggage also fully benefit. Not to mention station staff moving equipment around the station, or even loading the catering trolley on to the train. Will you be paying for their taxi too?

All these daft ideas to solve a problem that doesn't exist, just because the bus enthusiasts wish we still got to use the Bristol VR.

I think it' a bit more than a ramp including toilets that can take wheelchairs and consequent loss of space, station access etc. As for a bespoke taxi service I think it should certainly have been investigated it wouldn' be free but comparable to the costs of rail travel.

 

[robertclark125]

One thought. The person in the wheelchair space on the train, who refused to move, maybe did have a disability. I wonder, what the reaction from the Baroness would've been if that person was able to produce a disabled persons railcard.

Flipping it the other way, it appears that there are still those in society who think that, as they've paid their train fare, they can sit where they like, even if it's not provided or meant for them.

 

[6Gman]

Personally I think the whole thing is complete nonsense instead of spending fortune trying to make Trains/Buses/Stations wheelchair compatible etc, I think we would have been better using the money instead to develop a countrywide bespoke subsidised Taxi service for disabled Travellers.

And if they want/ need to travel with family/ colleagues?

 

[Tetchytyke]

think it' a bit more than a ramp including toilets that can take wheelchairs and consequent loss of space, station access etc.

Station access? Really? Stations have had lifts and ramps since the days of parcels traffic. There's nothing new to see here.

And how much space does one bigger loo- also helpfully used as a baby change facility, among other things- really have on anything?

Still, how dare those pesky wheelchair users dare to travel independently. They should stay at home where they belong, instead of wanting things like buses without a step. It's interfering with bus spotters' desire to see clapped out RTs everywhere.

PS You HAVE seen the purchase cost of wheelchair-accessible taxis haven't you?

 

[Tetchytyke]

And if they want/ need to travel with family/ colleagues?

Don't be silly, wheelchair users don't have friends or jobs. Why would they need to travel?

 

[Bromley boy]

I think it' a bit more than a ramp including toilets that can take wheelchairs and consequent loss of space, station access etc. As for a bespoke taxi service I think it should certainly have been investigated it wouldn' be free but comparable to the costs of rail travel.

I don’t think you’ve thought your idea through. You need to explain how on earth you think it would work, refuting the criticisms levelled in the above posts.

You say it wouldn’t be free but comparable to the costs of rail travel. On what basis do you believe this? Have you done any research? Can you give any figures?

Practicality is a bigger concern than cost. Consider journeys from (to choose some cities at random) Newcastle, Manchester, Birmingham or Sheffield to London. Which is quicker. Taxi or train? Once again, a modicum of research will tell you it’s the train.

Who will provide these “nationwide” taxis, where will they be based and how much notice will be required to book them?

 

[Ianno87]

I think it' a bit more than a ramp including toilets that can take wheelchairs and consequent loss of space, station access etc. As for a bespoke taxi service I think it should certainly have been investigated it wouldn' be free but comparable to the costs of rail travel.

Aside from the ludicrous cost, you appear to forget that wheelchair users are human beings too! Why do you think it is so wrong that as a society we should aspire to moving towards a world where wheelchair users can do all the same things able bodied persons can? If I were in that situation, I couldn't bear the thought of a taxi ride through London traffic to work and back every day. It would be a truely soul-destroying way to live.

I'm sorry to hear how you find such provision to be such a personal inconvenience.

And as I've found, such 'space' comes in handy when encumbered with a baby buggy. Even 15-20 years ago a simple trip to town would have been a virtual no-go on the buses of the time.

 

[LAX54]

If passengers are so uncaring and have the I'm alright Jack attitude these days, which seems to be more and more, maybe time to follow Airlines and Long Distance Coaches and make trains pre-booked all ticket with seat.
Boarding if you arrive with no ticket, only if there is a seat available,

But in reality.... too difficult to bring in

 

[philthetube]

One public address message stating that this train will not be moving because of three people in couch X who refuse to move to allow a disabled passenger on board would solve everything. Probably even a message asking for any police on board to make their way to car number X as three passengers were delaying the train would do it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Works on buses. Engine off, newspaper out...

 

[daikilo]

One public address message stating that this train will not be moving because of three people in couch X who refuse to move to allow a disabled passenger on board would solve everything. Probably even a message asking for any police on board to make their way to car number X as three passengers were delaying the train would do it.

I support the idea of the PA message, particularly if the issue is luggage, but I am not sure if solving the issue is the role of the police, especially if they are off duty.

I am wondering if a member of traincrew has the right to off-load any luggage blocking a wheel-chair space assuming it then goes into the custody of station crew. I suspect it may need a warning notice.

 

[Bantamzen]

I really don't think that the Police have the time, resources or even the authority to forcibly remove passengers standing in a disabled space. And I'm pretty certain that any train manager / guard sitting down a service until the passengers sort themselves out would be finding themselves being invited to a meeting to explain why they delayed not just their service, but potentially many others.

Unfortunately situations like this can only be resolved with the goodwill of other passengers. At the end of the day these situations arise because of a continued willingness to run a network with less capacity than is actually needed. On this occasion it was a disabled person involved, but how often do able-bodied people find themselves stranded because services are over-crowded and they cannot board because of the unwillingness of some to move?

 

[Llanigraham]

I really don't think that the Police have the time, resources or even the authority to forcibly remove passengers standing in a disabled space. And I'm pretty certain that any train manager / guard sitting down a service until the passengers sort themselves out would be finding themselves being invited to a meeting to explain why they delayed not just their service, but potentially many others.

Unfortunately situations like this can only be resolved with the goodwill of other passengers. At the end of the day these situations arise because of a continued willingness to run a network with less capacity than is actually needed. On this occasion it was a disabled person involved, but how often do able-bodied people find themselves stranded because services are over-crowded and they cannot board because of the unwillingness of some to move?

I don't think that is correct. I think you will find that anyone can be removed from anywhere on a train by a member of the BTP.

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't think that is correct. I think you will find that anyone can be removed from anywhere on a train by a member of the BTP.

There has to be good cause though surely? Removing someone for simply standing in an area of the train because its busy would potentially infringe that person's own rights, particularly if they had already been on the service prior to the stop where a disabled person wishes to board.

 

[al78]

Unfortunately situations like this can only be resolved with the goodwill of other passengers.

Oh dear.

 

[Bantamzen]

Oh dear.

That may not be what you would like to read, but do you honestly think that enforcing policies by forcibly throwing off passengers holding valid tickets because TOCs don't have enough capacity is a good idea?

 

[al78]

That may not be what you would like to read, but do you honestly think that enforcing policies by forcibly throwing off passengers holding valid tickets because TOCs don't have enough capacity is a good idea?

Who said anything about throwing off people holding valid tickets? I certainly didn't, so can we dispense with that strawman please.

My comment was merely saying that it is a shame we have to rely on something that is horribly unreliable. If we could rely on the goodwill of other people, we wouldn't need to bother with laws, regulations, or authoritive forces. In the case discussed here, then it depends on whether the person in the wheelchair couldn't board at all, meaning there really was no space without turfing other people off the train, or whether there was space for the wheelchair to get into the carriage, but no room to move to the disabled space. in the former case, it is hard luck, the wheelchair-bound person cannot board if there is physically no space, and it is not fair to evict people who have paid for a ticket. If the latter, then there is a logical solution. Ask enough people to get off the train for a short period of time. Using the now cleared space, move the wheelchair to the designated disabled space. Ask the passengers to get back on the train, using the space near the door which was formerly occupied by the wheelchair as standing room. Just a minor bit of shuffling, everyone gets on the train, no-one is thrown off and left behind, everyone's happy. To maximise cooperation you would probably need an authoritive figure to explain the plan and assure people that no-one is getting left behind.

Ultimately, if you are going to have a rule which states vulnerable passengers have priority (be that seating or disabled space) then there needs to be a way of enforcing that rule, otherwise the rule is pointless and has zero authority. That is why a lot of motorists violate traffic laws, because they gain from it and mostly get away with it, because there is no-one around to enforce the rule. It has got to the point where a minority feel entitled to break the rules when they feel like it, because the consequences are externalised onto others.

 

[Bantamzen]

Sorry, my comment wasn't worded as well as it should have been. I didn't mean to aim it directly at you, but some people have seemingly implied that the Police ought to be involved where such situations arise, which suggests that they would see fare paying customers taken off trains against their will.

I'm not sure if there is any scope in law to enforce priorty / disabled spaces, more often than not these are controlled at the discretion of the company and / or staff with the goodwill of any other passengers involved. And I am sure that for the vast majority of the time people will do what they can to assist, but sadly a small minority will go against the grain and become part of the problem.

Of course if there was better capacity on our nation's trains, less people would have to stand and this issue would be lessened.

 

[al78]

Sorry, my comment wasn't worded as well as it should have been. I didn't mean to aim it directly at you, but some people have seemingly implied that the Police ought to be involved where such situations arise, which suggests that they would see fare paying customers taken off trains against their will.

I'm not sure if there is any scope in law to enforce priorty / disabled spaces, more often than not these are controlled at the discretion of the company and / or staff with the goodwill of any other passengers involved. And I am sure that for the vast majority of the time people will do what they can to assist, but sadly a small minority will go against the grain and become part of the problem.

Of course if there was better capacity on our nation's trains, less people would have to stand and this issue would be lessened.

Ok, I can agree with you here. I think having adequate capacity is a utopian dream. I get the impression there isn't enough space on the lines to run a large enough number of trains on the busiest routes, and making them longer is problematic if the platforms aren't long enough and trains would end up sticking out and interfering with points.

The only thing I can think of is if companies start locating their offices in big cities other than London to spread the load of commuting, but given that London is a prestige address for a company head office, I can't see how that is going to happen any time soon.

 

[221129]

I'm not sure if there is any scope in law to enforce priorty / disabled spaces, more often than not these are controlled at the discretion of the company and / or staff with the goodwill of any other passengers involved.

You would be wrong then.

 

[6Gman]

There has to be good cause though surely? Removing someone for simply standing in an area of the train because its busy would potentially infringe that person's own rights, particularly if they had already been on the service prior to the stop where a disabled person wishes to board.

If they are standing in an area designated for other users (be that the wheelchair space, staff accommodation etc) then removing them from that space would be perfectly legitimate.

 

[221129]

If they are standing in an area designated for other users (be that the wheelchair space, staff accommodation etc) then removing them from that space would be perfectly legitimate.

And if it was luggage I would have no problem leaving it and it's owners if they were uncooperative on the platform.

 

[bramling]

And if it was luggage I would have no problem leaving it and it's owners if they were uncooperative on the platform.

Try it and see what happens - especially on a packed train at an emotive time of year like Xmas. I’m a little sceptical that a lot of the things we read on here like this would actually be carried out anyway - easy to write about it, doing it is another matter entirely. Two wrongs do not make a right.

 

[6Gman]

Try it and see what happens - especially on a packed train at an emotive time of year like Xmas. I’m a little sceptical that a lot of the things we read on here like this would actually be carried out anyway - easy to write about it, doing it is another matter entirely. Two wrongs do not make a right.

It all depends on the circumstances. But (IMO) if the only thing obstructing a wheelchair user from using the wheelchair space was an "ordinary" passenger and their suitcases obstructing the wheelchair space then the TM (or other appropriate member of staff) would be within their powers to instruct said passenger to relocate themselves and their luggage. And if co-operation was not forthcoming they would be within their powers to instruct said passenger to leave the train, and to seek the assistance of other staff, and BTP, to achieve that.

Of course, given other factors [potential delays, other options for the wheelchair user etc.], they might choose not to exercise those powers.

 

[bramling]

It all depends on the circumstances. But (IMO) if the only thing obstructing a wheelchair user from using the wheelchair space was an "ordinary" passenger and their suitcases obstructing the wheelchair space then the TM (or other appropriate member of staff) would be within their powers to instruct said passenger to relocate themselves and their luggage. And if co-operation was not forthcoming they would be within their powers to instruct said passenger to leave the train, and to seek the assistance of other staff, and BTP, to achieve that.

Of course, given other factors [potential delays, other options for the wheelchair user etc.], they might choose not to exercise those powers.

As you say, it’s one thing BTP doing it, although that assumes they’re nearby, not doing something more important, and interested. I don’t believe it’s for anyone else to do, except in emergency. From a conflict avoidance point of view it’s definitely not a good idea, and I wonder how far a company would support a member of staff assaulted in that situation.