'No room' on train for Paralympian

[gareth950]

Tanni Grey-Thompson told there was 'no room' on train for her
Paralympian Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson has said she was stopped from boarding a train after a passenger told staff there wasn't space for her.

She said in a tweet: "Merry Christmas to the person on the train who just stopped me getting on. Told member of staff 'there's no room for her'."

"Everyone else waiting on the platform got on," added Baroness Grey-Thompson, a wheelchair user with 11 gold medals.

The athlete explained in further tweets that the passenger "wouldn't move".

Baroness Grey-Thompson, 48, said this put the member of train staff in an "awkward position".

News of the incident was greeted with shock by other social media users, including the columnist Grace Dent - while some questioned why the train staff had not intervened.

Baroness Grey-Thompson, one of Britain's most successful disabled athletes, was named a Life Peer in 2010 and also sits on the BBC Board.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42466312

I thought in a situation like this, anyone occupying a disabled/priority seat or wheelchair space had to move, even if it meant the able bodied passenger then standing? Should the staff member (doesn't say whether it was platform staff or TM/guard) have refused to let the train move until Tanni Grey Thompson was allowed on the train?

Interestingly in her twitter exchanges she didn't mention the name of the TOC, but as Tanni GT is originally from Cardiff and may have been going home for Christmas, I'm guessing ATW or GWR?
I've been on an ATW 175 once where the disabled/wheelchair space was literally overflowing with piled high luggage due to the insufficient luggage space on these trains.

 

[Domh245]

Seems to be Virgin

https://twitter.com/Tanni_GT/status/944547888486547457

I think staff member didn’t quite know what to do. Virgin staff are often fab. I was lost for words too. It was only afterwards that I got annoyed. Another train 15 mins behind.

 

[Darandio]

I thought in a situation like this, anyone occupying a disabled/priority seat or wheelchair space had to move, even if it meant the able bodied passenger then standing? Should the staff member (doesn't say whether it was platform staff or TM/guard) have refused to let the train move until Tanni Grey Thompson was allowed on the train?

Between a rock and hard place really, there isn't a great deal they can do. If they threaten to hold the train, it risks making the other hundreds of other passengers angry. They can't physically remove anyone, so count that one out. Call the BTP? Rule that one out as well.

I've noticed some replies on her Twitter feed that are scathing towards staff, doesn't surprise me in the slightest. The only person that should feel the full wrath here is the one that wouldn't move, assuming they didn't actually need the space. I cannot see anywhere that says they weren't entitled to the space.

Interestingly in her twitter exchanges she didn't mention the name of the TOC, but as Tanni GT is originally from Cardiff and may have been going home for Christmas, I'm guessing ATW or GWR?

She often travels up and down the ECML as well.

 

[Starmill]

It sounds like there was in fact room, just that people refused to move out of the wheelchair space. It's difficult to believe that there was no way everyone could be accommodated, using space in First Class if necessary there's a wheelchair space there too, and also tip up seating or vestibule space which some people from Standard could have potentially been asked to relocate to.

 

[gareth950]

Between a rock and hard place really, there isn't a great deal they can do. If they threaten to hold the train, it risks making the other hundreds of other passengers angry. They can't physically remove anyone, so count that one out. Call the BTP? Rule that one out as well.

I've noticed some replies on her Twitter feed that are scathing towards staff, doesn't surprise me in the slightest. The only person that should feel the full wrath here is the one that wouldn't move, assuming they didn't actually need the space. I cannot see anywhere that says they weren't entitled to the space.

I completely agree, passenger(s) just should have moved. I just thought rail staff had more power to move people from a disabled space if a disabled person needs to board the train and it's being occupied.
I guess in a situation as I described where luggage is piled high taking up the disabled space, rail staff then are expected to find room on the train somewhere for that luggage to clear the space for a disabled person, even if it means delaying the train whilst space is found?

 

[Bromley boy]

It sounds like there was in fact room, just that people refused to move out of the wheelchair space. It's difficult to believe that there was no way everyone could be accommodated, using space in First Class if necessary there's a wheelchair space there too, and also tip up seating or vestibule space which some people from Standard could have potentially been asked to relocate to.

Unfortunately if people are selfish and refuse to make room there’s very little the train staff can do in these situations.

People do generally seem to be more and more wrapped up in their own worlds. I’m usually the only able bodied person to offer my seat up to elderly/disabled travellers. Most passengers are too busy staring into their smartphones.

 

[Darandio]

I guess in a situation as I described where luggage is piled high taking up the disabled space, rail staff then are expected to find room on the train somewhere for that luggage to clear the space for a disabled person, even if it means delaying the train whilst space is found?

I'd like to think that people wouldn't be selfish enough to put the luggage there anyway, but that is the world we live in now, @Bromley boy sums that up perfectly.

What we really could do with knowing is how full the train actually was.

 

[Mag_seven]

Unfortunately if people are selfish and refuse to make room there’s very little the train staff can do in these situations.

That unfortunately does not stop the Twitterati taking it out on the staff though.

 

[Robertj21a]

Can anybody clarify what powers the rail staff have if able-bodied passengers won't move out of a designated space for a wheelchair ?

 

[Bromley boy]

Can anybody clarify what powers the rail staff have if able-bodied passengers won't move out of a designated space for a wheelchair ?

Darandio summed things up very well in post #3.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Like with buses, and as in some other countries, there needs to be a legal sanction for this.

 

[a_c_skinner]

She often travels up and down the ECML as well

Lives in Eaglescliffe. Could be Grand Central.

 

[HSTEd]

If we have legal sanctions we risk ending up with a situation of - what happens if a half dozen passengers standing in a wheelchair space on a crush loaded train are required to disembark on pain of punishment?

That would seem to offend natural justice, at least in my opinion

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve never been on a train in the UK where you couldn’t have moved them elsewhere, even if that was to inside the bog or declassifying 1st. People can always squash up a bit more, they just choose not to. In particular, there is almost always room in the middle of the saloon of an end doored coach.

 

[gray1404]

Can we please stop using the term able bodied here. It is 2017 already. Some passengers may not have a physical disability but rather a non visible disability which is hidden (which could be physical or otherwise). They are still disabled and may need a priority seat. Use of language like able bodied is wrong. Do we want a situation whereby we encourage people to say: "You do not look disabled [enough]."

If people really want to use the term "able bodied" how about using the terms "passenger with a disability" and "passenger without a disability" instead.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I'd like to think that people wouldn't be selfish enough to put the luggage there anyway, but that is the world we live in now, @Bromley boy sums that up perfectly.

But where else does luggage go on many trains? I was on a rammed XC voyager once, luggage space in coach D was overflowing already, all other luggage spaces too, only option was wheelchair space. Of course, if a wheelchair wanted to board we would have put the luggage down the aisle, but it seemed pointless doing that and leaving the wheelchair space empty.

We only have one side of the story here, without knowing the full ins and outs it is difficult to comment on this story. But I can see why there was luggage/people in the wheelchair space, but they should move out of the way if it is required. If the train is rammed solid though, should someone on the train get off to allow someone else on? Is one person more important than another? If there is room for everyone, and someone needs a specific space, that is different of course. But until we know which train and where, we can't answer that.

 

[Bromley boy]

Can we please stop using the term able bodied here. It is 2017 already. Some passengers may not have a physical disability but rather a non visible disability which is hidden (which could be physical or otherwise). They are still disabled and may need a priority seat. Use of language like able bodied is wrong. Do we want a situation whereby we encourage people to say: "You do not look disabled [enough]."

If people really want to use the term "able bodied" how about using the terms "passenger with a disability" and "passenger without a disability" instead.

Oh for goodness sake. Able bodied is a perfectly fine term to use.

Its perfectly obvious to most people that priority seats are for those with physical disabilities, and also for non disabled people who are pregnant/elderly/frail.

My autistic brother is disabled, he doesn’t need a priority seat.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Can anybody clarify what powers the rail staff have if able-bodied passengers won't move out of a designated space for a wheelchair ?

In reality, very few, because nobody will hold a train and get the BTP out for this type of incident. Which is a real shame.

There are a lot of pig ignorant people on the ECML at the best of times. The wheelchair space in coach F on VTEC is always full of bags, even though there are plenty of other places.

But where else does luggage go on many trains? I was on a rammed XC voyager once, luggage space in coach D was overflowing already, all other luggage spaces too, only option was wheelchair space.

If TOCs started enforcing the luggage restrictions, both in terms of size and quantity, it'd be a good start.

 

[Deafdoggie]

If TOCs started enforcing the luggage restrictions, both in terms of size and quantity, it'd be a good start.

Not sure it would help too much, I have not seen people with more than the allowance each. The problem is a lot of people bring the allowance, particularity on longer distance trains

 

[Robertj21a]

Darandio summed things up very well in post #3.

Thanks. I was hoping that somebody amongst the rail staff actually had some authority to do something. You have to wonder just how determined/assertive the rail staff were. On buses, where the same problem arises, the driver will attempt to get co-operation from the other passengers, but may also decide to simply switch off until 'passenger-power' encourages some progress.

 

[AlterEgo]

As usual there is insufficient information in the story for us to make a judgement.

We don’t know why the passenger didn’t move from the wheelchair space. Was it a crush loaded train? Was the person sat down in the space? Is there a reason they needed a seat?

We also don’t know what, if any, other options were available to the staff.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

To a large extent it depends on how assertive a guard is prepared to be, it comes more naturally to some than others. My practice on busy trains, for as long as I was still able to get through(!), was to actively discourage occupancy of the designated wheelchair space. On Sprinters this was not a problem as the overhead luggage racks are actually quite spacious but many passengers are unaware even of their existence. Any people in the space would be politely told that they would be expected to vacate it should the need arise. I never had a problem situation arise but frankly I would have had no problem in delaying a train until any obstructive person complied; it helped that my managers had a similar view. If necessary people need to be told that on public transport there is no place for selfishness.

 

[Robertj21a]

To a large extent it depends on how assertive a guard is prepared to be, it comes more naturally to some than others. My practice on busy trains, for as long as I was still able to get through(!), was to actively discourage occupancy of the designated wheelchair space. On Sprinters this was not a problem as the overhead luggage racks are actually quite spacious but many passengers are unaware even of their existence. Any people in the space would be politely told that they would be expected to vacate it should the need arise. I never had a problem situation arise but frankly I would have had no problem in delaying a train until any obstructive person complied; it helped that my managers had a similar view. If necessary people need to be told that on public transport there is no place for selfishness.

Well said, that's far more what I would have hoped was the norm amongst rail staff.

 

[TUC]

I think what staff can do is make the situatuion as socially awkward as possible for the passengers refusing to move by making their actions very publicly obvious. I certainly don't mean shouting or being rude, but I do mean politely asking the passengers to move and explaining the reasons why using a volume that can be heard by others. Some peer pressure and disapproval might be very effective in such situations.

 

[Bromley boy]

Thanks. I was hoping that somebody amongst the rail staff actually had some authority to do something. You have to wonder just how determined/assertive the rail staff were. On buses, where the same problem arises, the driver will attempt to get co-operation from the other passengers, but may also decide to simply switch off until 'passenger-power' encourages some progress.

The trouble is, when the staff are confronted with belligerent, selfish passengers who refuse to move when asked, there’s simply little they can do to escalate matters. They may have the authority to tell people to move but it’s largely toothless.

 

[LowLevel]

If I was the guard what would I do? Park the train up and call for police assistance for byelaw breaches. There are certain situations where you have to stand your ground and assert your authority and no amount of complaints from passengers or indeed control will see me as the designated person in charge potentially putting myself foul of the Equality Act by failing to discharge my duties. It is part of the guard's responsibilities to keep the designated wheelchair spaces free for the use of passengers using wheelchairs. Occasionally you have to suck it up and accept discharging that responsibility may make you unpopular.

It is not like a bus in that byelaws already provide for legal sanctions against those occupying spaces marked out for the use of others or alternatively for failing to obey safety instructions issued by an authorised person (move out of the way so we can safely board and carry this person using a wheelchair).

The passenger is a customer and should be treated with respect but they are never in a position of authority over the railway's employees and some people occasionally need reminding of that.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've noticed some replies on her Twitter feed that are scathing towards staff, doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

There's nothing scathing about staff in the quotes in the BBC item.
Her comments were addressed at a person (presumably another passenger) who prevented her boarding.
In her other tweets she says Virgin staff are usually "fab".

 

[Starmill]

If people refuse flat out to move, or insist that their improperly stowed luggage or whatever it is will not be moved, there is very little that the train company can do, yes. However, up until that point the train company does have a duty to uphold their Disabled People's Protection Policy, which clearly would include making an effort to ask people to move and explaining why, i.e. someone else needs that space.

What actually happened in this case is a very long way from clear.

 

[Darandio]

There's nothing scathing about staff in the quotes in the BBC item.
Her comments were addressed at a person (presumably another passenger) who prevented her boarding.

Read the replies to her Twitter feed then, plenty there.

 

[Starmill]

Read the replies to her Twitter feed then, plenty there.

Wait, wait. You mean to tell me that people are making angry comments and throwing abuse around on Twitter? Unbelievable. So unexpected.