Another fatality on WCML, this time near Wigan NW 19Dec17

[LeylandLen]

Trains being cancelled at Preston and Warrington as a result of another sad incident near Wigan NW .such as : 1M07 This service was cancelled between Preston and London Euston due to a person hit by a train

 

[Boodiggy]

Train involved is 1M91

 

[Oxfordblues]

Oh dear, it seems like almost every day on the WCML.

I don't know what the answer is, but they respond differently elsewhere. I was travelling across Russia last year on the Trans-Siberian Express when I spotted a dead body on the platform of a wayside halt as we sped past. I was astonished, but not really surprised, because no trains are allowed to be delayed on the main line to the Soviet Far East for fear of deportation to the Gulag! It could perhaps have been someone comatose from vodka, but I believe it's more likely he'd been hit by a train and his body thrown to one side for the police to deal with once the driver had reported it at the next booked stop.

 

[Mathew S]

It does feel like this is happening with depressing regularity. This is the service I often catch to work in the morning (thankfully not today), and is usually full and standing south of Preston. I was glad to see several passengers praising on social media on the care they received (and which the driver received) from TPE onboard staff.

 

[dizzie]

It does worry me when I read of these services that possibly have standing passengers at the time of an emergency breaking situation. The risks of injury are too terrible to consider, if people are standing, unsupported by anything, and the train suddenly lurches to a halt, especially if the train was doing top speed at the time. Can anything be done to ensure passenger safety in these situations?

 

[Lrd]

Can anything be done to ensure passenger safety in these situations?

Holding on. An emergency brake application still takes a few miles to stop a train.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The 'emergency' braking rate for trains only used to be about 12%g IIRC.

It is well understood that a hypothetical octegenarian walking to the toilet on an EMU at 110mph has over 13 times the kinetic energy of a similar individual getting up to walk to the door of a bus at 30mph.

 

[Mathew S]

I've been on a Class 350 (the same type as involved in this morning's incident) as a standing passenger during an emergency brake application, albeit due to a passenger alarm activation rather than anything more serious. I can confirm that I, and my fellow standees, remained vertical at all times

 

[6Gman]

I've been on a Class 350 (the same type as involved in this morning's incident) as a standing passenger during an emergency brake application, albeit due to a passenger alarm activation rather than anything more serious. I can confirm that I, and my fellow standees, remained vertical at all times

I was standing on the 221 which met downed wires at Wembley three weeks ago. The braking was firm, the deceleration impressive but I was in no danger of suffering injury.

 

[GB]

Generally, the braking pressure of an emergency brake application is not all that different from a full service brake application. Its the sudden stop at the very end that usually throws people of balance.

 

[bramling]

It does worry me when I read of these services that possibly have standing passengers at the time of an emergency breaking situation. The risks of injury are too terrible to consider, if people are standing, unsupported by anything, and the train suddenly lurches to a halt, especially if the train was doing top speed at the time. Can anything be done to ensure passenger safety in these situations?

An emergency brake application can happen at any time for any number of reasons. Normally it's less likely to affect passengers from higher speed, as people have time to brace themselves - although the jolt stop can still catch some by surprise. It's far more likely to catch people out when a train makes an emergency stop from low speed out of the blue. A full emergency stop from high speed can have bad consequences for the train's wheels if the railhead conditions are poor though - a whole train's worth of flatted wheels is quite likely.

 

[Minilad]

Holding on. An emergency brake application still takes a few miles to stop a train.

I doubt there is any passenger train operating in the UK that would take a "few miles" to come to a stand under emergency braking even from top speed

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I doubt there is any passenger train operating in the UK that would take a "few miles" to come to a stand under emergency braking even from top speed

Prior to introduction into service of the HST a high-speed braking trial was carried out to prove that it could stop from 125mph in no more distance than the current trains needed to stop from 100mph. I remember very clearly the distance achieved as being "one mile and one carriage length".

 

[furnessvale]

Prior to introduction into service of the HST a high-speed braking trial was carried out to prove that it could stop from 125mph in no more distance than the current trains needed to stop from 100mph. I remember very clearly the distance achieved as being "one mile and one carriage length".

I believe the requirement is for any train to be able to stop in 1.25 miles.

 

[Signal Head]

Holding on. An emergency brake application still takes a few miles to stop a train.

I hope not, we don't give them that long to stop between signals, and that's with a 'normal' brake application.

 

[AndrewE]

Holding on. An emergency brake application still takes a few miles to stop a train.

I doubt there is any passenger train operating in the UK that would take a "few miles" to come to a stand under emergency braking even from top speed

"one mile and one carriage length".

I believe the requirement is for any train to be able to stop in 1.25 miles.

It's clearly well over a mile, so "a few miles" isn't a gross exaggeration. We have been told many times that a train can't possibly stop within sighting distance, hence single and double yellow signal aspects. Given that there only seem to be about 2 signal sections visible southwards from Crewe nowadays, I would think that it must allow about 5 miles from a green to a red.

I hope not, we don't give them that long to stop between signals, and that's with a 'normal' brake application.

is irrelevant as there are 3 or 4 sections warning!

 

[tsr]

The existence of yellow and double yellow signal aspects can also vary with the length of a signal section - if a yellow signal is displayed to a train travelling at (say) 80mph, the driver will simply need enough space to react and slow down before the red. There are some pretty high linespeeds on three-aspect signalling.

But if this is not possible, a double yellow signal needs to warn the driver of the cautionary yellow aspect further down, so that the driver is expecting this. There are places around the country where four-aspect signalling with double yellows is specifically provided due to allow drivers to be warned of the need to stop within a shorter distance than usual, for example if the distance between the two subsequent signals would not allow the train to reduce speed from the maximum permitted upon seeing a single yellow, in time for a red. There are also places where there is only the warning of a yellow aspect and sufficient stopping distance is accordingly provided.

In all cases, signal section length may also end up exceeding the distance ever realistically needed to slow to a stop, so there are plenty of lines where the distance would vary. Sometimes a driver may not actually need to brake until some time after a single yellow is displayed. They may even need to stop at a station and then proceed towards a red signal which is still some way away. This often occurs where signalling has been "rationalised" and there is no longer a station platform starter signal, but a distant signal now warns of a danger signal some way beyond the station. Anyway, that's a bit off-topic!

We can then boil this down further to two-aspect running, which can effectively be on line-of-sight in some cases. Linespeeds would reflect this, and are unlikely to be practical for intercity services running at higher speeds.

Emergency braking should not be routine and is designed to stop the train as quickly as possible in out-of-course situations where the driver has to react to something in their field of vision - or if the driver may be unresponsive and could not respond to signals or events occurring in front of them. The original topic of conversation regarding emergency braking is not about stopping in time for normal signal aspects, and in fact emergency braking should not normally be used to stop at signals in routine running. In this case, the designed overall distance of (say) a few miles between green and red signals would be irrelevant.

In the event of a train accident (the definition of which, according to the RSSB Rule Book, includes a person hit by a train), the train crew would be expecting a train to need at least a mile and a quarter to stop - when protecting the line in a worst-case scenario, you place detonators at a mile and a quarter from the accident, and then you may need to continue until you find help or can call for help, being prepared to stop oncoming trains.

 

[voyagerdude220]

A little off topic, but apparently all lines blocked for the time being to/from London Euston, owing to a suicidal person threatening to jump from an over bridge (not sure precisely where). I believe the power supply to the overheads has been turned off for the time being.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Edit: All lines were re opened relatively quickly at London Euston. Services running normally again.

 

[Mathew S]

The existence of yellow and double yellow signal aspects can also vary with the length of a signal section - if a yellow signal is displayed to a train travelling at (say) 80mph, the driver will simply need enough space to react and slow down before the red. There are some pretty high linespeeds on three-aspect signalling.

But if this is not possible, a double yellow signal needs to warn the driver of the cautionary yellow aspect further down, so that the driver is expecting this. There are places around the country where four-aspect signalling with double yellows is specifically provided due to allow drivers to be warned of the need to stop within a shorter distance than usual, for example if the distance between the two subsequent signals would not allow the train to reduce speed from the maximum permitted upon seeing a single yellow, in time for a red. There are also places where there is only the warning of a yellow aspect and sufficient stopping distance is accordingly provided.

In all cases, signal section length may also end up exceeding the distance ever realistically needed to slow to a stop, so there are plenty of lines where the distance would vary. Sometimes a driver may not actually need to brake until some time after a single yellow is displayed. They may even need to stop at a station and then proceed towards a red signal which is still some way away. This often occurs where signalling has been "rationalised" and there is no longer a station platform starter signal, but a distant signal now warns of a danger signal some way beyond the station. Anyway, that's a bit off-topic!

We can then boil this down further to two-aspect running, which can effectively be on line-of-sight in some cases. Linespeeds would reflect this, and are unlikely to be practical for intercity services running at higher speeds.

Emergency braking should not be routine and is designed to stop the train as quickly as possible in out-of-course situations where the driver has to react to something in their field of vision - or if the driver may be unresponsive and could not respond to signals or events occurring in front of them. The original topic of conversation regarding emergency braking is not about stopping in time for normal signal aspects, and in fact emergency braking should not normal be used to stop at signals in routine running. In this case, the designed overall distance of (say) a few miles between green and red signals would be irrelevant.

In the event of a train accident (the definition of which, according to the RSSB Rule Book, includes a person hit by a train), the train crew would be expecting a train to need at least a mile and a quarter to stop - when protecting the line in a worst-case scenario, you place detonators at a mile and a quarter from the accident, and then you may need to continue until you find help or can call for help, being prepared to stop oncoming trains.

Thanks @tsr for a genuinely useful and interesting post. I've learned something there

 

[tsr]

A little off topic, but apparently all lines blocked for the time being to/from London Euston, owing to a suicidal person threatening to jump from an over bridge (not sure precisely where). I believe the power supply to the overheads has been turned off for the time being.

It was close to Euston and fortunately resolved quite quickly, as you say. I won't say which exact bridge. The power to the overhead lines was isolated in the area. A number of trains were close by.

Thanks @tsr for a genuinely useful and interesting post. I've learned something there

No problem!

 

[DarloRich]

It does worry me when I read of these services that possibly have standing passengers at the time of an emergency breaking situation. The risks of injury are too terrible to consider, if people are standing, unsupported by anything, and the train suddenly lurches to a halt, especially if the train was doing top speed at the time. Can anything be done to ensure passenger safety in these situations?

overreaction? Please do calm down. Even with an emergency brake application it will take a time for the train to stop. It wont stop dead instantly.

 

[al78]

Is there any correlation between the frequency of suicide attempts on the railway and the current weather conditions? I'm curious because the Met Office are predicting large parts of the country will experience zero sunshine from today for a full week at least, accompanied by rain. The near-continuous twilight-like light levels can't do much for well-being, especially if someone is already feeling low.

 

[DarloRich]

Is there any correlation between the frequency of suicide attempts on the railway and the current weather conditions? I'm curious because the Met Office are predicting large parts of the country will experience zero sunshine from today for a full week at least, accompanied by rain. The near-continuous twilight-like light levels can't do much for well-being, especially if someone is already feeling low.

if that held any water those of us from the north east would be in trouble. It's called winter in the rest of the country and everyday for us!

I suspect it is just that many people in our society are finding life tough at present, that the government doesn't care cuts willy nilly, leaves the authorities so short of money that they cant care and people are cast adrift bereft of support. The shocking state of mental health provision in this country is one of the biggest issues. As and example it is 12 weeks (and i suspect it is closer to 20 weeks as the fist contact offers you a phone chat) minimum from referral to first contact with a mental health practitioner in the MK area.

Draw you own conclusions..................................................

 

[al78]

if that held any water those of us from the north east would be in trouble. It's called winter in the rest of the country and everyday for us!

No it isn't. NE England receives over 1300 hours of sunshine per year averaged over 1981-2010. NE Scotland is a little bit lower, but only much lower in the Grampian mountains. To claim zero sunshine is an everyday occurence is absurd.

It would not surprise me if day after day after day of gloom and poor light levels would amplify the effects of depression if it coincided with another tragic event in a persons life. I can appreciate that government policies over recent years and the consequences could be a major factor. I am just curious if some of the inter-annual variability in depression and suicide rates could be explained by the weather. I vaguely remember hearing that suicide rates in the Scandinavian countries are highest in the winter, where winter daylight is a lot lower than here.

 

[DarloRich]

No it isn't. NE England receives over 1300 hours of sunshine per year averaged over 1981-2010. NE Scotland is a little bit lower, but only much lower in the Grampian mountains. To claim zero sunshine is an everyday occurence is absurd.

It would not surprise me if day after day after day of gloom and poor light levels would amplify the effects of depression if it coincided with another tragic event in a persons life. I can appreciate that government policies over recent years and the consequences could be a major factor. I am just curious if some of the inter-annual variability in depression and suicide rates could be explained by the weather. I vaguely remember hearing that suicide rates in the Scandinavian countries are highest in the winter, where winter daylight is a lot lower than here.

WOW - it certainly feels like we get those hours when it is dark at 1400 and raining sideways. BTW - humour fail.

I am fairly certain the lack of access to mental health support and the inability/unwillingness of men (and especially young men) to seek support/help is the bigger issue. You blame the sun if you like. It may play apart but if it does I suspect it is a minor part.

 

[Harbouring]

As someone in the “system” the state of mental health care has deteriorated rapidly in the past 5 years, Mr Hunt will claim otherwise but the proof of the pudding..... There are days when people need to travel hundreds of miles out of their area if they need to be admitted just because they have closed beds and whole wards everywhere. Community care has been peeled back and “reorganised” it has left the hard working staff chasing their tails in order to provide care. Minor problems are not picked up early so exacerbate into crisis situations that increase the workload. The seemingly official response to people in a crisis is “have you tried breathing differently” or “ok, maybe have a bath or a cup of tea” (I wish I was joking)

The weather may not be the direct causal factor and you could find studies that support that supposition and those that don’t. Bad weather can increase then isolation of people and that can stack up.

It’s an awful situation. Thoughts to the staff involved in this latest tragic event.

 

[WatcherZero]

As a local note the location of this was only 250m north of Wigan North Western on Park Road where there is a waist high access gate and steps up the embankment from the road, the rear of the train would have barely cleared the platform.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5...4!1sfvXtVMyyC-8lHTjsbkFv8Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

[Elecman]

That access is no different to thousands of others all round the country

 

[WatcherZero]

Its different locally, none of the other road crossings for at several miles either direction have access and its right in the town centre in a heavily trafficked area leading to a high number of trespass incidents at that particular location.