Idea for vending machines on UK stock

[jamesontheroad]

Don't some French trains have vending machines?

There aren't many Corail night trains left, but when I last used them in 2007 (Strasbourg - Marseille) a single compartment had been stripped out and fitted with two pretty standard looking vending machines. It was part of the short-lived attempt to reignite interest in the couchette trains when they were branded Corail Lunéa.

(SNCF love a daft brand name even more than privatised British utility companies... )

This issue for TOCs and catering contractors in the UK is that a fair chunk of revenue (if not volume) comes from the sale of alcohol, which cannot happen unsupervised. Installing vending machines might save on staffing, but it would limit the remarkable revenue potential of warm very fizzy lager. I note that Abellio had a chance to do away with the bistro bar on the new London - Norwich stock, but have decided to retain a very small counter. If the usual Friday night beer sales are anything to go by, this is probably why.

 

[bastien]

Russian & Chinese trains have a samovar at the end of the carriage, ideal for making tea/coffee/supernoodles.

But obviously that wouldn't work here because a) we can't be trusted with hot water, and b) we can't bear the idea of anyone getting something for free.

 

[AngusH]

I'd really want a hot drink machine though, because that's not something I can easily provide myself during the journey.

I wonder if it would be possible to design a machine that could dispense a hot drink already in a paper bag?

 

[Three-Nine]

Some shinkansen trains have vending machines, though from memory they only serve cold drinks. Not sure if the latest types in service still have them.

 

[mwmbwls]

The most practical vending machine in these days of DOO would be a TVM. Discuss.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The most practical vending machine in these days of DOO would be a TVM. Discuss.

I agree but more important to be on stations.

 

[xotGD]

The most practical vending machine in these days of DOO would be a TVM. Discuss.

That is in theory a good idea - but during peak hours a lot of passengers would be physically unable to reach the machine to buy a ticket - I have experienced this on a tram in Lisbon.

 

[MG11]

Certainly the Poacher line 153s would benefit from a vending machine, it's actually a decent chunk of time on board from Nott'm to S'ness if going via Grantham. They could be installed above the cycle racks, it would only need to be the size of a mini fridge. If they sold premium products like Kettle Chips, Joe & Seph's Popcorn, Dormen Peanuts, Folkington's juices, Harrogate water & other luxury yet un-perishable products, they could all be neatly packed in. Selecta machines charge £1 for Kettle Chips at stations, so the price could obviously be increased for on-board convenience, perhaps something like £1.40 for crisps, £2 for popcorn and Coca Cola/Sprite. It could be quite a lucrative operation, if marketed well. Northern 158s, which have no catering (bar the Carlisle services) could also benefit. They could install machines where the old BT Payphones were. There are plenty of little nooks and crannies what aren't large enough of a space to install aditional seating, yet could be used for a vending machine.

 

[delt1c]

Used the Italian High Speed stock and they have vending machines for hot drinks , without problems.

 

[mallard]

The most practical vending machine in these days of DOO would be a TVM. Discuss.

Nice idea, but it has some practical problems...

Does the mere presense of the TVM on the train (regardless of the queue, etc.) count as "an opportunity to buy"? You'll end up with people who have to miss their stop in order to avoid getting PF'd on the station. I suppose it's similar to when the conductor is unable to get through the train in time, but PFs aren't unheard of in those cases either...

Most passengers would expect the TVM to "know" which station to issue tickets from. Having to manually select their origin is seriously error-prone; you'll end up with people being charged silly money by accidentally selecting "Loughborough Junction" instead of "Louhborough", "Clapton" instead of "Clapham", etc. While this can happen with online purchasing and with the destination on "static" TVMs, the lesser time pressure in those situations allows passengers a better opportunity to check things. On a train when you're approaching your destination and fearing a hefty PF if you don't get a ticket, mistakes will be common.

The TVM's location could be kept up to date by the same mechanism that keeps the PIS up-to-date, however, that system is far from universally reliable, even on new trains. Passengers could end up being overcharged by buying their tickets "too soon" after boarding (before the system realises the train's arrived), buying tickets for completely different routes if they "location" system is out-of-whack and if there is a queue they could end up inadvertantly short-faring if the train passes another station before they get their ticket. There would obviously have to be a way for passengers to "override" the "from" station, but that would have to be very obvious (e.g. "Please select your origin station" with a list of recently passed and the next upcoming station) to avoid issues.

 

[jon0844]

Vending machines do seem like a good solution. Obviously the experience in other countries (which of course the British industry will steadfastly refuse to draw upon, as per usual) proves that the potential food hygiene issues are not insurmountable. Many trains that currently have pathetic (and disruptive; I've more than once had the trolley cut me off from my luggage when attempting to disembark) trolley services also have disused shop/buffet areas, so replacing those with vending machines wouldn't cost any passenger space.

For a country that has invented so much, it is always strange when we are so against some things that other countries have already demonstrated works, or can work.

We now have London installing lower down lights for bikes. Something I saw in Sweden 30 or 35 years ago. We made a big fuss over the pedestrian 'X' crossing at Oxford Circus, even though you could have seen that in Japan decades ago.. Oh, and the countdown timer on crossings was the same.. TfL deciding to do extensive testing, as if all the countries around the world had somehow not noticed any potential flaws and we were going to do so.

I get the argument that a vending machine takes up luggage/seating space, but that's about the only reason I can think of to be against them - and it wouldn't apply to every single bit of rolling stock.

Vending machines at stations, often the only way to get a can of drink or chocolate bar, don't seem to be regularly cleaned. Someone comes along every now and then and restocks them and takes the money.

It might be different for fresh sandwiches or hot drinks, but I would have thought water, coke, lemonade and some confectionery would work. Make them take cards only (including contactless, Android/Apple Pay etc of course) and you do away with a major security concern.

You could even have a barcode reader so that a TOC could offer a complimentary selection to some passengers, either perhaps travelling first class or as a loyalty reward. The good thing about that is you give a voucher, and if the machine is empty or out of service the voucher can be used another time.

 

[Carntyne]

I don't see any big issues with it techincally, it is possible, but when capacity is such a hot topic, would you want to be taking 2-4 seats out to carry crisps about?

 

[MG11]

I don't see any big issues with it techincally, it is possible, but when capacity is such a hot topic, would you want to be taking 2-4 seats out to carry crisps about?

It wouldn't take anywhere near that amount of space. What it would likely be is about the size of a hotel minibar. Class 153s have extra large luggage space for parcels, which is now redundant, as parcels are no-longer carried. Class 142s have ample space in the outer ends of the saloons. The 150s have very large IMO luggage racks above the cycle spaces, which wouldn't suffer from sacrificing space for a mini vendor.

 

[221129]

Or we could stop looking at stupid ideas to put people out of jobs?

 

[MG11]

Or we could stop looking at stupid ideas to put people out of jobs?

Did you completely ignore the OP? The suggestion is for machines on routes without a trolley service. That does not "put people out of jobs". On the contary, it secures employment for service centre staff to replenish the machines. I don't see how it is stupid either, some journeys take a long time, but not long enough to warrant a trolley, it seems the perfect compromise.

 

[221129]

It is a ridiculous idea, it would be unprofitable and if it was workable it would have been done already.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Some of the 158's have one of the bogs taken out of use and are left unused (which have a private sign on them), there would be ample space to bung in a machine there. So if a trial was ever rolled out it would have to be where the machines can be retrofitted into 158's and where they currently operate.

 

[jhy44]

It is a ridiculous idea, it would be unprofitable and if it was workable it would have been done already.

Well, it is workable, and it has been done already, they're well used by myself included on Norwegian Trains.

One issue no one here is mentioning is how ineffective a Trolley is on a packed train; so packed that the Trolley cannot even move due to people standing in the aisles. A Vending Machine would not have that issue.

Vending Machine coffee is often of a great quality these days, the machines freshly grind the beans when you order the coffee and brew it there and then; much better than the reheated dibble kept in a flask that most trolley services that had beans ground weeks/months ago and then was brewed 12 hours earlier (if you're lucky). Vending Machine coffee also tends to be much cheaper, around 50p-£1 in most of the high-quality machines, compared to £2+ for aforementioned dribble.

I'm confident that were a trial to be initiated on a long-distance route, not only would it be popular and profitable, but it would be much more so than a trolley service.

Of course, the RMT would probably scream bloody-murder and claim that not having on-board catering staff is a 'danger to the public' and would call national strikes. That'll be the real reason the DfT daren't remove the trolley requirement from Franchising Specifications.

 

[221129]

One issue no one here is mentioning is how ineffective a Trolley is on a packed train; so packed that the Trolley cannot even move due to people standing in the aisles. A Vending Machine would not have that issue

No passengers wouldn't be able to get through the train to it.
If it was profitable and worth doing it would already be done in this country. The fact that it hasn't speaks volumes .

 

[MG11]

Which 158s are these? Itake it you mean the space saving toilets and tnot tye weyccl chair accessible ones?

Some of the 158's have one of the bogs taken out of use and are left unused (which have a private sign on them), there would be ample space to bung in a machine there. So if a trial was ever rolled out it would have to be where the machines can be retrofitted into 158's and where they currently operate.

 

[MG11]

No passengers wouldn't be able to get through the train to it.
If it was profitable and worth doing it would already be done in this country. The fact that it hasn't speaks volumes .

TOC Twitter accounts are not profitable. They still exist though, to enhance the customer experience. Anyway, I think vending machines could be profitable, if the prices were high enough.

 

[221129]

TOC Twitter accounts are not profitable. They still exist though, to enhance the customer experience. Anyway, I think vending machines could be profitable, if the prices were high enough.

I think you'll find TOC Twitter accounts etc are not optional.... if the prices are high no one will use it.

 

[pompeyfan]

No passengers wouldn't be able to get through the train to it.
If it was profitable and worth doing it would already be done in this country. The fact that it hasn't speaks volumes .

Chicken and egg though, if you provide it and it proves successful then it would be rolled out. If not then that’s the end of that. There’s been various trials on the Railway, some successful, others not quite so.

My idea was actually to put it on a variety of traction and routes. Sometimes alongside existing trolly services but for out of hours trains or on stopping services etc.

I like the idea of making it contactless only although will a contactless transaction go through when there’s no mobile phone signal? I thought contactless would only be authorised for live transactions.

I don’t think it would be putting people out of jobs, and I can’t see why the RMT would be fussed, those staff would still be required, if not needed more.

 

[Intercity Exec]

Which 158s are these? Itake it you mean the space saving toilets and tnot tye weyccl chair accessible ones?

The 158s in question are the 3cars which originally had 2 toilets on the centre cars. 1 was taken out of use many years ago

 

[HSTEd]

Trolleys are of rather questionable usefulness these days.

It would probably be better if they were taken out entirely - they cost significant amounts to operate and get in the way of passengers on heavily loaded services.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Which 158s are these? I take it you mean the space saving toilets and not the wheelchair accessible ones?

The 158s in question are the 3cars which originally had 2 toilets on the centre cars. 1 was taken out of use many years ago

Plus you'd got the WYPTE spec'd 158's (901 - 910) which have tip up seating in place of the space saving bog - rip the seating out and bung a machine there. You'd also got the hybrid 158's too, but this would mean that the 'centre' coach would have to lose either its small toilet or some seating that is close to the disused cab in order to fit a vending machine.

 

[Kettledrum]

Vending machines are notoriously unprofitable for the company hosting or leasing them. Better to contract out catering to smaller niche caterers who the take risk of whether they make money or not. The vending machine manufacturers and salesmen and women will of course tell you different.

 

[6Gman]

Back in 1962 the WR introduced an Autobuffet car on the Cambrian Coast Express by converting one compartment of a Mk1 SK. ISTR it had technical issues and didn't last long - and that was long before current food hygiene regs.

I actually used that! Or tried to ...

I would have been about 6 or 7 in age and was very excited at the idea of using the only on-train vending machine (I think by then it was in use on an overnight West Country service). Problem - within an hour of departure it had sold out. So it was a failed attempt to use the only on-train vending machine. Keeping such a unit stocked would be difficult, especially given the quick turnrounds these days and the fact that stock levels could only be checked on arrival (unless it becomes another Guard responsibility).

Second problem as I recall was breakdowns. Think how temperamental such machines can be in offices or hotels - now consider them being transported across country - curves, pointwork, acceleration and braking plus - potentially - diesel engines throbbing under the floor.

Add in payment issues, the "hot drink safety" issue, hygiene regs, and the loss of seating ...

 

[jon0844]

If a vending machine sells out within an hour of departure, it seems quite successful. And these days they're smart so report their inventory so it will be known exactly what has sold, and when - plus other metrics that I am sure can be used to better keep the machines stocked, and stocked with the right items.

Seems worthy of another try if the last test was 1962.

 

[6Gman]

If a vending machine sells out within an hour of departure, it seems quite successful. And these days they're smart so report their inventory so it will be known exactly what has sold, and when - plus other metrics that I am sure can be used to better keep the machines stocked, and stocked with the right items.

Seems worthy of another try if the last test was 1962.

I thought somebody would offer a technological solution!

It might sell out within an hour because the capacity is inadequate - or maybe it wasn't loaded properly in the first place. (No way of knowing 50 years later.)