ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[swaldman]

There are more disused toilets in B, D and E. One of these spaces is being used for Guard's equipment such as detonators etc. One of these spaces is only present on the 5 coach train. But it should be possible to convert an additional space for 2 bikes on every service if someone is willing to pay for it.

Moving away from the bike question (and sorry if this was answered 35 pages ago) - do we know why HSTs in Scotland are considered to need fewer toilets per passenger than elsewhere?

(OK, fewer toilets per car. Granted that's not the same thing, but even compared to GWR high-density there can't be only half as many pax now...!)

 

[47271]

Thanks. I get the current status of matters. What frustrates me is that Scotrail are going out of their way to avoid saying anything. When I linked to some of the pictures on page 1 of this thread, they immediately started asking detailed questions about the origin of them and how widely available they are. For the entire world was pretty much my answer. That they didn't know the info was out there was pretty shocking.

Has it occurred to you that they might just be waiting until the first set has been converted and is available for inspection before making any further commitments, that's what it looks like to me? The mk3s are getting a pretty radical internal reworking, it isn't just about bikes, and if I was them I'd be pretty cagey about practical details right now too.

 

[scotraildriver]

Moving away from the bike question (and sorry if this was answered 35 pages ago) - do we know why HSTs in Scotland are considered to need fewer toilets per passenger than elsewhere?

(OK, fewer toilets per car. Granted that's not the same thing, but even compared to GWR high-density there can't be only half as many pax now...!)

Because there's only enough space at one end of the coach to fit a retention tank. The same reason Mk3 sleepers have 2 toilets at one end as they had tanks from new in the same position.

 

[swaldman]

Because there's only enough space at one end of the coach to fit a retention tank. The same reason Mk3 sleepers have 2 toilets at one end as they had tanks from new in the same position.

Ah, thanks.

 

[gsnedders]

Because there's only enough space at one end of the coach to fit a retention tank. The same reason Mk3 sleepers have 2 toilets at one end as they had tanks from new in the same position.

Off-topic, I know, but why did the sleepers have retention toilets from new?

 

[najaB]

Off-topic, I know, but why did the sleepers have retention toilets from new?

Because they spend a lot of time sitting in stations. I'll leave the rest of the post to your imagination...

 

[brel york]

For the record , the bike space is only in one Coach TS (B) I’ve got access to angels drawings not some design brief

 

[route:oxford]

These "exciting" plans better not be a van driving up the A9, as I believe has been used on the Far North Line.

Is it related to the gossip that a Mk3 Sleeper is going to be converted into a bike & luggage storage vehicle for the peak holiday season?

 

[route:oxford]

Although since Croy has almost twice as many passengers as Lenzie, there would be more commercial reason to call there.

It's not always about the commercial reason, sometimes it's about the ambience.

There is a considerable class difference between the slack jawed rabble boarding at Croy and the more refined boarding at Lenzie.

 

[47271]

Is it related to the gossip that a Mk3 Sleeper is going to be converted into a bike & luggage storage vehicle for the peak holiday season?

Well, maybe, but it strikes me as unlikely. You can't just stick a loco hauled mk3 into an HST without a lot of work, and the internal layout of a sleeper makes it very difficult to manhandle large items in and out.

Given the number of surplus HST trailers about to be washing around surely it would be a lot easier just to turn one or two into giant luggage vans?

 

[brel york]

Well, maybe, but it strikes me as unlikely. You can't just stick a loco hauled mk3 into an HST without a lot of work, and the internal layout of a sleeper makes it very difficult to manhandle large items in and out.

Given the number of surplus HST trailers about to be washing around surely it would be a lot easier just to turn one or two into giant luggage vans?

Has it occurred to you that they might just be waiting until the first set has been converted and is available for inspection before making any further commitments, that's what it looks like to me? The mk3s are getting a pretty radical internal reworking, it isn't just about bikes, and if I was them I'd be pretty cagey about practical details right now too.

Has it occurred to you that they might just be waiting until the first set has been converted and is available for inspection before making any further commitments, that's what it looks like to me? The mk3s are getting a pretty radical internal reworking, it isn't just about bikes, and if I was them I'd be pretty cagey about practical details right now too.

Lol don’t be daft , our yard is full of them , we can’t plan as a business to wait and see ! Drawings have been done and long lead time parts ordered , vehicles stripped out etc , this isn’t a model railway in your attic or garage it’s real life !

 

[snakeeyes]

Any pictures of the conversion taking place?

 

[brel york]

Any pictures of the conversion taking place?

I can get some but won’t put them on here , someone’s likely to show them to the first minister to prove a point

 

[brel york]

I can get some but won’t put them on here , someone’s likely to show them to the first minister to prove a point

First car is painted

 

[route101]

Same at Lenzie - Lenzie gets a non-stop to GLQ at 0820 Mon-Sat that's ex Aberdeen and on a Sunday morning, the first service LNZ heading North/East is GLQ-ABD too. I'd assume in the fullness of time these will all be HST services. I can see it being worth putting the signs up at Croy if only for the situations where other trains are cancelled and they need to stick a stop-order on, or - as you say - if stock needs to move between Glasgow and Edinburgh or vice-versa.

Maybe the daily Fife-GLQ and return services will end up HST too, although they don't stop at Croy either, as I've learned to my "get-off-and-head-back-at-Larbert" cost before.

Im sure Lenzie and Bishopbriggs had more calls on Glasgow to Edinburgh trains in the past .Now i think they get people to change at Croy .
Id like to see a HST on Glasgow to Edinburgh turn but feel all services will run as EMU .

 

[snakeeyes]

I can get some but won’t put them on here , someone’s likely to show them to the first minister to prove a point

Can you pm them please?

 

[InOban]

Im sure Lenzie and Bishopbriggs had more calls on Glasgow to Edinburgh trains in the past .Now i think they get people to change at Croy .
Id like to see a HST on Glasgow to Edinburgh turn but feel all services will run as EMU .

I can remember when Bishopriggs only had a peak hour service. Never through trains to Edinburgh. Lenzie only had a couple of peak trains to Edinburgh.

 

[brel york]

Can you pm them please?

Pm me and tell me what you want

 

[170401]

There is a considerable class difference between the slack jawed rabble boarding at Croy and the more refined boarding at Lenzie.

From personal experience I'd strongly contest that statement. If anything their is no difference although Lenzie folk seem to be more bitter in their attitudes.

 

[47271]

Lol don’t be daft , our yard is full of them , we can’t plan as a business to wait and see ! Drawings have been done and long lead time parts ordered , vehicles stripped out etc , this isn’t a model railway in your attic or garage it’s real life !

I'm talking about Scotrail's comms on the subject, not your plans for converting the trains. All I was saying was that they're unlikely to commit publically to capacities until the first set is complete, but tell us if you know otherwise?

Also, did you mean to quote my post on the sleepers, you read like you've got a yard full of the things waiting to be converted into HST luggage vans?!

 

[brel york]

I'm talking about Scotrail's comms on the subject, not your plans for converting the trains. All I was saying was that they're unlikely to commit publically to capacities until the first set is complete, but tell us if you know otherwise?

Also, did you mean to quote my post on the sleepers, you read like you've got a yard full of the things waiting to be converted into HST luggage vans?!

Sorry I meant we have a yard full of mk 3s for the various operators

 

[Highland37]

Sorry but I take no responsibility for the availability of information sourced from Scotrail, and posted by others. The information could be removed at any time by those with the ability to do so. It's no one else's responsibility.

I don't think waiting is going to increase the numbers of bike spaces. Indeed, other campaigns are running into the same issue (Spokes of Edinburgh) that Scotrail will avoid saying anything to the point they deny what was previously said. I take the opposite view. Keep the pressure up as they aren't going to do what they said (and probably wont anyway) unless there is additional pressure to do so.

 

[InOban]

Scotrail are paid by ScoGov. He who pays the Piper.... So you need to keep up the pressure on your MSPs.

 

[Highland37]

I am however, just as politicians are not involved in the clinical decisions in hospitals, this issue is dealt with by the experts, in this case Scotrail (Abellio) who came up with the spec of "at least 20" bike spaces.

I don't doubt for one second that they don't know what they are doing but clearly the planning and delivery have not been good if something was promised that cannot be delivered.

Solution wise, if the dwell times are an issue, then end to end (as everyone says) bikes could go in the power cars and others in the coaches. But even this seems too far a step for Scotrail even to talk about. Remember, the only reason we know of any change is through the leaked documents.

I hope they can come up with a solution that fits both the needs of commuters such as myself and tourists. I can't see a reason that they can't other than an ingrained culture and rigid adherence to practice.

 

[Chrisyd]

Am I the only person who is expecting to see complaints on here about how the coach based bike spaces where full when they left the first station with people who were travelling the length of the line, but did not want to wait for the guard to unlock the power cars at the other end and thus everyone at intermediate stations could not get there bikes on?

 

[Highland37]

And they would be right to complain if the situation has not been managed well enough.

The simple solution to the issue you identify is signs:

Power car doors: All cycles for Inverness, Aberdeen, Glasgow & Edinburgh
Cycle spaces in coaches: NO cycles for Inverness, Aberdeen, Glasgow & Edinburgh
Platform: Cycles spaces for Inverness, Aberdeen, Glasgow & Edinburgh at each end of train. Cycles spaces for all other stations in coaches.

 

[BRX]

Is opening up a door on a power car really such an onerous task that it needs to have a big impact on dwell times? If the power car adjacent to the catering carriage where apparently the guard is to be based is used, it's hardly a long walk. It does seem like something that doesn't have to be a problem if there's a genuine will for it not to be.
I've used bike compartments in DVTs on both the east coast and Anglia services; they seem to manage it on trains which are much longer, and in the anglia case, with slam door stock so the guard is having to look out for that too.

 

[Macwomble]

The simple solution to the issue you identify is signs:

Power car doors: All cycles for Inverness, Aberdeen, Glasgow & Edinburgh
Cycle spaces in coaches: NO cycles for Inverness, Aberdeen, Glasgow & Edinburgh
Platform: Cycles spaces for Inverness, Aberdeen, Glasgow & Edinburgh at each end of train. Cycles spaces for all other stations in coaches.

....and I can guarantee you there will be a substantial minority who'll claim they didn't see the signs OR simply can't be a***d complying.

 

[Highland37]

....and I can guarantee you there will be a substantial minority who'll claim they didn't see the signs OR simply can't be a***d complying.

Fair enough. Dealing with the public is part of a public service.

I am with BRX on this, it doesn't seem a huge "ask" to get this sorted given there is the space.

I used to live with a girl from Denmark. She often bemoaned the lack of service and forward thinking in the UK and trains were part of her gripe. She still maintains that the attitude in the UK is one of the reasons British workers are less productive than German workers for example. We took two bikes from Copenhagen to Arhus. It was no issue and there were at least 5 oor 6 bikes on there.

 

[mcmad]

Looking forward to this thread getting back to the HST's and less greeting about bikes.