Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

[Bantamzen]

Risky. If the guard doesn't reach you to sell you a ticket before the train leaves the zone covered by the travelcard, you would fall foul of the "overtravelling" rule, and could be caught by RPIs at your terminating station beyond the travelcard zone.

It has happened on more than one occasion when the train has been busy, and the RPIs I have encountered have just asked me to go to the ticket office to buy a return for the portion of the journey not covered. Whether or not they would still allow this post penalty fare scheme I don't know, but as I said I would more likely be travelling on a 2 Together card anyway, meaning that I would be paying from my starting station and therefore having a valid ticket for the whole of the journey. And frankly if I were going to use my MCard for part of the journey, I'd either buy an M-Ticket in advance for the remainder or simply not chance it and buy the full return from the TVM at the starting station. Most of the concerns that people raise are relatively easy to solve, and most people using the services in the PF area seem to be coping just fine.

 

[Puffing Devil]

The other problem with this is that the genuine traveller from a station without ticket-buying facilities might not have an opportunity to buy a ticket from the guard if the guard is occupied with selling tickets to travellers who could have bought a ticket before they boarded. If he/she then arrives at a barriered station with unhelpful RPIs, he/she could end up in a difficult situation. This will be worse when Northern equip such minor stations with a single TVM which then is not working at the time the traveller uses the unmanned station, and the fact that this TVM is out-of-order is not known to such RPIs.

That's not an issue at the moment, and may be more of an issue when we do get a machine that works.

At present, if I arrive at Piccadilly without a ticket I have to buy one from the RPIs/Contractors. As there is not machine at my station, there is not normally an issue buying a ticket, other than the queues and being sold a peak ticket in the afternoon, when the peak area does not stretch past Alderley Edge. If I know the train is likely to be busy I'll buy a mobile ticket and restrict my phone use to keep the battery alive.

When we have a TVM there may well be fun and games if it doesn't work or malfunctions during a ticket print. I'm not looking forward to the Disputes Section then.

For the example I posted earlier, the short faring group should have been picked up at Piccadilly as they should have bought a ticket at their claimed boarding point of Wilmslow, rather than on arrival. Again, similar fun and games if the facilities at the station are not working.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

I think the issue that I have with new penalty fare scheme is just the amount of time it will add to journeys. Normally one arrives about 5 minutes before the train, and you can normally visit the TVM (if it's on the right platform!) and then hop on the train. If there is a queue you can always abandon the TVM and get it from the guard/at the far end.

Now you have to allow for the possibility there MIGHT be a queue at the TVM and arrive, say, 10 minutes or so before the train, 15 if the TVM is inconveniently located (a la Steeton & Silsden) just to avoid the chance that you might not have got the ticket before the train arrives. Therefore there's a 5/10 minute penalty in excess journey time for every journey made, rather than just on the odd occasion when you had to queue at the destination to buy a ticket.

Given that journey time is one of the key competitive aspects against other modes, it seems a ridiculous handicap when we're trying to encourage modal shift away from private motor traffic. Not to mention the added inconvenience of potentially having to go to a distant platform to get a ticket and walk back, etc. It doesn't make rail any more attractive by making it more inconvenient, a longer journey time and treating everyone as if they are out to stiff the railway.

Given that (as I recall) fare evasion is about 2% it seems a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

EDIT: To correct auto-correct as I was typing on my phone this morning.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think the issue that I have with new penalty fare scheme is just the amount of time it will add to journeys. Normally one arrives about t minutes before the train, and you can normally visit the TVM (if It's on the right platform!) and then hop on the train. If there is a queue you can always abandon the TVM and get it from the guard/at the far end.

Now you have to allow for the possibility there MIGHT be a queue at the TVM and arrive, say, 10 minutes or so before the train, 15 if the TVM is inconveniently located (a la Steeton & Silsden) just to avoid the chance that you might not have got the ticket before the train arrives. Therefore there's a 5/10 minute penalty in excess journey time for every journey made, rather than just on the odd occasion when you had to queue at the destination to buy a ticket.

Given that journey time is one of the key competitive aspects against other modes, it seems a ridiculous handicap when we're trying to encourage modal shift away from private motor traffic. Not to mention the added inconvenience of potentially having to go to a distant platform to get a ticket and walk back, etc. It doesn't make rail any more attractive by making it more inconvenient, a longer journey tome and treating everyone as if they are out to stiff the railway.

Given that (as I recall) fare evasion is about 2% it seems a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Maybe it is a sledgehammer approach, but given the scale of potential fare evasion something had to happen. On the lines concerned on the trial the timings between stops is often just a few minutes, meaning that on busy (often rammed at the peaks) 4 car units (soon to be 6 across 2 non-gangway units on some services) guards struggle to check tickets before the next stop. It was a frequent and depressing sight seeing numbers of passengers playing dodge the guard on almost every service I would catch, or running down to the far end of trains for one / two stop journeys, particularly before the barriers went in at places like Bradford Forster Square. So the one alternative would be to employ more RPIs, but then you might just end up with the same problem except at exits as opposed to entrances with queues forming to pay fares because the guard couldn't check all passengers.

The other alternative would be to ignore the problem and carry on as before, but as previously highlighted in this thread they have a franchise obligation to implement additional fare protection schemes. Just adding TVMs and hoping those passengers that regularly seek to avoid fares are somehow guilted into paying isn't going to work, so some kind of enforcement, or at least the threat of it has to be at least part of the solution. As for arrival times for passengers, yes clearly in some instances this will increase, I'm afraid that is a reality of the situation. We as passengers have the evaders to thank for that, in much the same way that airline passengers have the threat of terrorism to thank for longer queues at security and having to arrive in some cases 3 hours before departure. In order to try to enforce the requirement for all passengers to pay their way, some will be inconvenienced. Perhaps at certain stations Northern will have to review the number and locations of TVMs. Just because they are situated where they are now doesn't mean that they can't be moved or duplicated where the need arises. But frankly if you are travelling to Leeds or Bradford along the the Aire or Wharfe lines, an extra 5 or even 10 minutes time added to the start of your journey isn't going to make much of a difference when the alternative would still be more than double, treble, or even quadruple that by road.

For many evaders it will hopefully only take a few instances of being stung for £20 for a fare of a couple of quid to change their behaviour. Of course some will continue, but there are some that probably do it because it has just been too easy to avoid. And for the vast majority of honest passengers it can offer many to chance to pick up pre-bought tickets at their local station, where previously no opportunity existed. For others it may encourage more use of seasons, smart ticketing (just WY MCards at the moment, but eventually Northern plan to have their own) or M-ticketing solutions, which in the long run help in some small way to reduce costs. The bus operators are rapidly working on new e-solutions, so now is the time for TOCs to also make improvements. For those that do not wish to use online ticketing, they still have the chance to buy either at a TVM or pay onboard with a Promise To Pay (which from what I can see is more or less one click on the screen).

But whatever they did not everyone would be happy about it, you can never design any system that will be to the full satisfaction of all users. All companies like Northern can do is to try and balance the needs of passengers, convenience and revenue protection. Whether or not this is the right way forward remains to be seen, if they get it badly wrong and it causes chaos I will happily admit I was wrong for cautiously supporting it. All I can say at this point is that I see no real changes save the guards selling a few less tickets onboard. Of course that is entirely anecdotal but for me at least not surprising.

 

[Merseysider]

I know there’s a limit to what Northern can afford but 2 TVMs on every platform would largely solve that. No excuses for not purchasing, arriving 5 minutes before departure would largely be sufficient, and no need to go traipsing over a railway line/stairbridge/road if one is out of order.

As it is, I’ve certainly noticed improvements on my local line, with most stations between Manchester and Stoke now getting one TVM on each platform, although as of Friday the two at Poynton had been out of use for two weeks straight despite being reported twice

 

[Deerfold]

But frankly if you are travelling to Leeds or Bradford along the the Aire or Wharfe lines, an extra 5 or even 10 minutes time added to the start of your journey isn't going to make much of a difference when the alternative would still be more than double, treble, or even quadruple that by road.

That's fine if you're arriving by car or walking - but if you're catching one of the less frequent buses first this could mean adding a lot more time to your journey.

Your timings are probably right for going to Leeds, but going to Bradford there's a lot less in it - especially if you're not wanting that end of town.

 

[Clip]

I think the issue that I have with new penalty fare scheme is just the amount of time it will add to journeys. Normally one arrives about t minutes before the train, and you can normally visit the TVM (if It's on the right platform!) and then hop on the train. If there is a queue you can always abandon the TVM and get it from the guard/at the far end.

Now you have to allow for the possibility there MIGHT be a queue at the TVM and arrive, say, 10 minutes or so before the train, 15 if the TVM is inconveniently located (a la Steeton & Silsden) just to avoid the chance that you might not have got the ticket before the train arrives. Therefore there's a 5/10 minute penalty in excess journey time for every journey made, rather than just on the odd occasion when you had to queue at the destination to buy a ticket.

.

Well you could always use their app to purchase your tickets and take away all the issues of finding a tvm. Not everyone will be happy with me saying this on here but its another option just like buying in advance is too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know there’s a limit to what Northern can afford but 2 TVMs on every platform would largely solve that. No excuses for not purchasing, arriving 5 minutes before departure would largely be sufficient, and no need to go traipsing over a railway line/stairbridge/road if one is out of order.

I agree. On the urban services I can't see any reason why they could not duplicate Metrolink policy and provision of ticketing facilities exactly. Yes, including the need to telephone for a reference number if the TVM is broken.

 

[Bantamzen]

That's fine if you're arriving by car or walking - but if you're catching one of the less frequent buses first this could mean adding a lot more time to your journey.

Your timings are probably right for going to Leeds, but going to Bradford there's a lot less in it - especially if you're not wanting that end of town.

Well bus connections are a whole other matter, my views on provision in my area are well known & notorious!!

But seriously, if the bus journey begins in West Yorkshire & the journeys frequent, then in this context then it would probably make sense to obtain an MCard anyway, meaning that they could be renewed in advance at the home or destination station.

As for travelling into Bradford, as someone who occasionally picks up a bus from Shipley homewards I've often stood in the shelter (or in the pub!) and watched the boards display my bus being 10 mins away for a straight 20 minutes. It can sometimes take a service in excess of half an hour to get up Manningham Lane, especially given the mad junction at Carlisle Road where the Northbound traffic is filtered into one lane right where there is an often used bus stop. And even by car it can take a depressingly long time to get out of Bradford in any direction.

Well you could always use their app to purchase your tickets and take away all the issues of finding a tvm. Not everyone will be happy with me saying this on here but its another option just like buying in advance is too.

Judging by the growing number of people using M-tickets on the buses, its really not too difficult to see their increasing use on the trains too. Its not a solution for everyone of course, but more and more people use their mobiles for every transaction they can, so the more that take up the option the less the queuing issue becomes.

 

[Clip]

Judging by the growing number of people using M-tickets on the buses, its really not too difficult to see their increasing use on the trains too. Its not a solution for everyone of course, but more and more people use their mobiles for every transaction they can, so the more that take up the option the less the queuing issue becomes.

Indeed - more and more people are making the change but some cant give up their little orange piece of card

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

Well you could always use their app to purchase your tickets and take away all the issues of finding a tvm. Not everyone will be happy with me saying this on here but its another option just like buying in advance is too.

I agree, and I do see your point. However, I think that Advance ticket purchasing is great for inter-city travel or long-planned trips, but adding in an extra step or an app download for a purchase or whatever will discourage the occasional user or the first-time user, the very people we want to encourage out of their cars and onto the trains. Similarly, regular users have M-Cards or Season Tickets and so it isn't an issue - but these are already a 'captive' audience for the train; if the overall aim of the company is to grow the market, then I'm not sure that making life more inconvenient or convoluted for new or occasional users is the way to go, even if that does hit the sub-goal of limiting fare evasion somewhat.

Especially with regard to the (relatively) short-term look out for ticketing. On lines like the Aire/Wharfe, for example, I can imagine tap in/tap out contactless travel with platform validators happening within the next decade, as they are (as pointed out above) essentially a metro service. This would be great for the kind of customer outlined above (as would a carnet of tickets, but let's not get ahead of ourselves), whilst season tickets/M-Cards and doubtless other smart cards will continue to work for the regulars. Obviously that doesn't work for Carlisle/Hexham, but then they aren't piloting this scheme there.

Maybe it is a sledgehammer approach, but given the scale of potential fare evasion something had to happen...the one alternative would be to employ more RPIs, but then you might just end up with the same problem except at exits as opposed to entrances with queues forming to pay fares because the guard couldn't check all passengers.

The other alternative would be to ignore the problem and carry on as before, but as previously highlighted in this thread they have a franchise obligation to implement additional fare protection schemes. Just adding TVMs and hoping those passengers that regularly seek to avoid fares are somehow guilted into paying isn't going to work, so some kind of enforcement, or at least the threat of it has to be at least part of the solution.

True. I guess this links into my point above - I think we're going to see ticketing and such on these lines change in the next wee while, so it seems an odd choice of time to make a massive investment into the existing technology - I guess this is just a function of the franchise agreement being 'poorly timed' in that regard. I would have muddled through as before for another 5 years or so (hey, it's worked fine for the last 170!) maybe with a few more RPIs and then taken a view of how technology was shaping up and working from there, but I concede that the pressure was to do something sooner rather than later.

But whatever they did not everyone would be happy about it, you can never design any system that will be to the full satisfaction of all users. All companies like Northern can do is to try and balance the needs of passengers, convenience and revenue protection. Whether or not this is the right way forward remains to be seen, if they get it badly wrong and it causes chaos I will happily admit I was wrong for cautiously supporting it.

Well said, we don't know if this was the right call or not. I guess they were obliged to do something and they have. I don't think it's going to cause chaos, I just don't think it's going to help the broader aim of encouraging and supporting the widening of sustainable travel options to current non-users; and in fact will discourage use by them by making it more convoluted than just turning up and hopping on the train. Similarly it will make occasional trips more of a hassle for regular users (say you had a 1 - 5 M-Card to do SON - LDS, but wanted to go to Skipton - the extra minutes to walk to the other platform, allow for any queue at the TVM, etc.) means that you may choose to get the bus instead). I imagine it will be normalised pretty quickly, and life will, of course, go on, it just strikes me as being somewhat disproportionate in its downsides of discouraging more travel by train and fitting physical infrastructure all over the place for the small benefits of preventing a tiny percentage of currently un- or under-paid trips.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Make a Freedom of Information request to DfT. Easy and free!

Having waited the maximum period allowed under the law, Dft has declined to confirm, thus far, that Northern have an approved Penalty Fares Scheme. Indeed they have declined to provide, thus far, any information whatsoever. But they do hold some information. Next update in another 20 days. A partial response would have been useful but, hey ho, that's the Sir Humphreys for you.

 

[Deerfold]

Well bus connections are a whole other matter, my views on provision in my area are well known & notorious!!

But seriously, if the bus journey begins in West Yorkshire & the journeys frequent, then in this context then it would probably make sense to obtain an MCard anyway, meaning that they could be renewed in advance at the home or destination station.

For these journeys, yes - but I'm sometimes doing a journey once a week - and doing a rail journey either starting before 0930 (so a DayRover is out) or finishing beyond the county. I have connections at the moment of just a few minutes - and a fairly reliable bus. There are also bus links from outside the county.

As for travelling into Bradford, as someone who occasionally picks up a bus from Shipley homewards I've often stood in the shelter (or in the pub!) and watched the boards display my bus being 10 mins away for a straight 20 minutes. It can sometimes take a service in excess of half an hour to get up Manningham Lane, especially given the mad junction at Carlisle Road where the Northbound traffic is filtered into one lane right where there is an often used bus stop. And even by car it can take a depressingly long time to get out of Bradford in any direction.

Of course it does make a difference what time you're travelling.

I'm not suggesting any of these are going to apply to the majority of travellers - but looking at the edge cases shows how well the scheme's been planned (or not).

I've caught two trains within the area today. Conductors were selling lots of tickets. I didn't hear anyone being told about the PF scheme. Does anyone know if the tickets issued on trains have a warning notice on them?

 

[Puffing Devil]

I've caught two trains within the area today. Conductors were selling lots of tickets. I didn't hear anyone being told about the PF scheme. Does anyone know if the tickets issued on trains have a warning notice on them?

And this is one of the major problems - assuming, of course, that tickets were available at the departure station.

 

[ainsworth74]

On lines like the Aire/Wharfe, for example, I can imagine tap in/tap out contactless travel with platform validators happening within the next decade, as they are (as pointed out above) essentially a metro service.

Yes it would work well on those routes as the fares are almost ideally suited to the concept of Pay As You Go from a cost perspective. An Anytime Day Return from Skipton to Leeds is £10.90 so there's no reason why you couldn't have a smart card with balance on it for PAYG fares or as TfL are trying to do cut out the middle man and go straight to using people's contactless debit/credit cards. Or even, being a bit more radical, considering that West Yorkshire's already divided nicely into Zones move to a zonal fares!

All that being said the simpler initial solution is to just make sure that Northern have TVM's coming out of their ears on routes where they're introducing the PF scheme. Two TVMs at least on the platform where the greatest weight of traffic is leaving (I would guess Leeds at most stations) and at least one on the other platform (Shipley will be a bit of pain though! )

 

[ainsworth74]

Does anyone know if the tickets issued on trains have a warning notice on them?

I'm not sure but as far as I'm aware they should have warnings on them as part of having a PF scheme.

 

[Deerfold]

And this is one of the major problems - assuming, of course, that tickets were available at the departure station.

Oh they were - Keighley and Shipley, with both ticket offices open and 1 TVM at each. I transferred between platforms without passing or seeing a PF notice.

There was a scrolling message on screen saying "Please purchase tickets before boarding as this station is a penalty fare station". Shouldn't this be a bit stronger than *please*?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I've caught two trains within the area today. Conductors were selling lots of tickets. I didn't hear anyone being told about the PF scheme. Does anyone know if the tickets issued on trains have a warning notice on them?

That depends upon the Penalty Fares Scheme that they are operating i.e. guards trained as Authorised Collectors or not. Whichever, the continued selling on-board is frowned upon by the rules as it detracts from the effectiveness of the Penalty Fares Scheme, which is dependent upon the passenger knowing that they must (not could or should or may) buy before boarding save for the small number of exceptions thoroughly discussed in this thread e.g no facilities, cash payment, rail voucher payment, ticket not available.

Have any Penalty Fares been issued?

 

[Bantamzen]

I agree, and I do see your point. However, I think that Advance ticket purchasing is great for inter-city travel or long-planned trips, but adding in an extra step or an app download for a purchase or whatever will discourage the occasional user or the first-time user, the very people we want to encourage out of their cars and onto the trains. Similarly, regular users have M-Cards or Season Tickets and so it isn't an issue - but these are already a 'captive' audience for the train; if the overall aim of the company is to grow the market, then I'm not sure that making life more inconvenient or convoluted for new or occasional users is the way to go, even if that does hit the sub-goal of limiting fare evasion somewhat.

Especially with regard to the (relatively) short-term look out for ticketing. On lines like the Aire/Wharfe, for example, I can imagine tap in/tap out contactless travel with platform validators happening within the next decade, as they are (as pointed out above) essentially a metro service. This would be great for the kind of customer outlined above (as would a carnet of tickets, but let's not get ahead of ourselves), whilst season tickets/M-Cards and doubtless other smart cards will continue to work for the regulars. Obviously that doesn't work for Carlisle/Hexham, but then they aren't piloting this scheme there.

I'm a big advocate of the principle of tap-in, tap-out. Having a fully utilised smartcard system not only helps reduce cost & time, it helps gather data on passenger flows & generate some additional data that was previous unavailable with older style season tickets. It might if ever gather by a PTE from train and bus operators help identify needs for better inter-modal integration to further encourage use. But that's all for another thread!

True. I guess this links into my point above - I think we're going to see ticketing and such on these lines change in the next wee while, so it seems an odd choice of time to make a massive investment into the existing technology - I guess this is just a function of the franchise agreement being 'poorly timed' in that regard. I would have muddled through as before for another 5 years or so (hey, it's worked fine for the last 170!) maybe with a few more RPIs and then taken a view of how technology was shaping up and working from there, but I concede that the pressure was to do something sooner rather than later.

To he honest putting the tech in first is a really smart move, get the basic infrastructural and procurement costs out of the way then tweak the tech as needed, be this subtle software changes or installing additional TVMs, as the connectivity is already there. It makes it far easier to make required changes if you have the necessary technology in already, for example the day before the penalty fare scheme went live I checked out the newly commissioned TVM at my home station as my MCard was due to expire the next day. However that function wasn't available (nor was the Promise To Pay function), which surprised me slightly so I contacted Northern and asked why. They simply replied that it would go live for the start of the scheme, which I was if I'm honest slightly sceptical about. However the very next morning on inspection again, the display had two new icons, one for MCard renewals, one for PTP. This is the beauty of getting ahead of the game, you can tweak & update with minimal fuss.

Well said, we don't know if this was the right call or not. I guess they were obliged to do something and they have. I don't think it's going to cause chaos, I just don't think it's going to help the broader aim of encouraging and supporting the widening of sustainable travel options to current non-users; and in fact will discourage use by them by making it more convoluted than just turning up and hopping on the train. Similarly it will make occasional trips more of a hassle for regular users (say you had a 1 - 5 M-Card to do SON - LDS, but wanted to go to Skipton - the extra minutes to walk to the other platform, allow for any queue at the TVM, etc.) means that you may choose to get the bus instead). I imagine it will be normalised pretty quickly, and life will, of course, go on, it just strikes me as being somewhat disproportionate in its downsides of discouraging more travel by train and fitting physical infrastructure all over the place for the small benefits of preventing a tiny percentage of currently un- or under-paid trips.

Steeton does seem to be a bit of a problem, as I don't use the station is the TVM closer to the Leeds bound platform or the Skipton? I'm assuming from your post it is the Leeds-bound one? If so once the PF scheme widens then there may be a very strong case for for an additional TVM. But its far from the only station with long walks between ticket facilities, if you consider Shipley for example. There is obviously the ticket office & TVM between platforms 3 & 5, a TVM on P1 but none on P2 for Skipton meaning a walk across the car park if you are approaching from the footbridge over P1 & P2, or going up to the office to get a ticket for Bradford bound trains on P4 before crossing over or passing under to P4 if coming from Station Road. There are probably other examples of this on the two lines, but hopefully if they do become an issue Northern will look to invest further.

 

[Bantamzen]

Oh they were - Keighley and Shipley, with both ticket offices open and 1 TVM at each. I transferred between platforms without passing or seeing a PF notice.

There was a scrolling message on screen saying "Please purchase tickets before boarding as this station is a penalty fare station". Shouldn't this be a bit stronger than *please*?

Are you sure? Because I pass through Shipley every day, and I have seen them at the entrance to P1, P3, & at the Station Road subway entrance. I must admit I haven't noticed them on P2, though I haven't really looked (but I will tonight!) and haven't used P4 since the scheme started, although I'm fairly certain I've seen one at the top of the ramp to it (again I'll make a note to look). I'm not doubting that you didn't notice them BTW, but as another poster previously commented that they had seen ones at both entrances to platforms at Keighley so you may just be missing them. Also have you not heard the audio announcements, they are pretty frequent & I've heard them at Shipley, Baildon & Guiseley so far.

 

[Deerfold]

Are you sure? Because I pass through Shipley every day, and I have seen them at the entrance to P1, P3, & at the Station Road subway entrance. I must admit I haven't noticed them on P2, though I haven't really looked (but I will tonight!) and haven't used P4 since the scheme started, although I'm fairly certain I've seen one at the top of the ramp to it (again I'll make a note to look). I'm not doubting that you didn't notice them BTW, but as another poster previously commented that they had seen ones at both entrances to platforms at Keighley so you may just be missing them. Also have you not heard the audio announcements, they are pretty frequent & I've heard them at Shipley, Baildon & Guiseley so far.

I passed from P5 to P3. There may well be one at the entrance to P3 from the car park. The one on Platform 2 at Keighley is very easy to miss, especially in low light.

Still not heard any announcements. I'm usually waiting at Steeton, Keighley, Shipley, Leeds or Bradford.

 

[xotGD]

Two points:

1) If you are travelling to Leeds, Bradford or Skipton there are ticket barriers, so you cannot get away with not paying. The "Promise to Pay" ought to cut out short-faring. If you Penalty Fare everyone turning up at Leeds without a Ticket or PtP, then you are essentially saying that you think they are all attempting to short fare (N.B. not Not Paying, since these passengers know they can't leave the station at Leeds without buying a ticket) and deserve to be punished.

2) If you are travelling between two of the intermediate stations (say Steeton to Shipley) and don't wish to pay, you just have to get a "Promise to Pay (if the guard comes round)", have a banknote in your hand and hope that the guard does not reach you. The only way to deal with this is more staff on trains or at station exits.

 

[Bantamzen]

I passed from P5 to P3. There may well be one at the entrance to P3 from the car park. The one on Platform 2 at Keighley is very easy to miss, especially in low light.

Still not heard any announcements. I'm usually waiting at Steeton, Keighley, Shipley, Leeds or Bradford.

There is one underneath the screen at the car park entrance. I'm sure there was a poster inside the ticket office too, but can't be totally sure. The announcements sound like they've been recorded at one of the ticket offices because there is a slight bit of background noise, similar to when station staff make similar announcements about last minute changes to services. I can't say how frequently they replay, but certainly at Guiseley & Shipley they seem to play a few minutes before a service arrives & I've heard it loop at least twice in the evening st Shipley connecting from Leeds back home.

 

[Deerfold]

(N.B. not Not Paying, since these passengers know they can't leave the station at Leeds without buying a ticket)

There are certain times when it's quite easy to leave the station at Leeds without a ticket. I have done it without showing my ticket. There's also a certain amount of people following others through the barriers.

 

[Clip]

I agree, and I do see your point. However, I think that Advance ticket purchasing is great for inter-city travel or long-planned trips, but adding in an extra step or an app download for a purchase or whatever will discourage the occasional user or the first-time user, the very people we want to encourage out of their cars and onto the trains. Similarly, regular users have M-Cards or Season Tickets and so it isn't an issue - but these are already a 'captive' audience for the train; if the overall aim of the company is to grow the market, then I'm not sure that making life more inconvenient or convoluted for new or occasional users is the way to go, even if that does hit the sub-goal of limiting fare evasion somewhat.

Apologies if I am just being a bit thick here but how is having an app on yor phone which you will have in your hand on the way to the station or indeed even that morning over a bit of breakfast more inconvenient or convoluted of having to queue up behind others and work your way around a TVM - especially if you are a first time user?

 

[sheff1]

Two points:

1) If you are travelling to Leeds, Bradford or Skipton there are ticket barriers, so you cannot get away with not paying.

Stand near the barriers a Leeds for a while and observe how many people pass through without showing a ticket or putting one in the barrier. Of course, they may have all paid

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

Apologies if I am just being a bit thick here but how is having an app on yor phone which you will have in your hand on the way to the station or indeed even that morning over a bit of breakfast more inconvenient or convoluted of having to queue up behind others and work your way around a TVM - especially if you are a first time user?

You decide, for whatever reason, to catch the train, and so you pop down to the railway station. You may have checked the nationalrail app for times or you might just be winging it (which a surprising number of people still seem to do). You get there, there is a train in 5 minutes but there is a queue for the TVM. Your options are to either queue and hope you get there before the train does, or to go and read a poster, download an app (using up data - maybe It's the end of the billing period and you're a bit light?) and then enter all your payment details, be presented with the usual gamut of ticket options, select one and then purchase it. A process that'll take damn near 5 minutes. Basically It's a faff and it puts you off bothering, either on that occasion or more generally.

Compare that to just walking to the railway station and getting on a train.

That is what I meant. A lot of mobility is spur of the moment or at least, not planned out like a military campaign days or even hours in advance. We should be enabling and making it easier, not making it so that the only spontaneous means of travel is by car (or bike if you're prepared to do battle with the rest of the traffic).

 

[northwichcat]

The Northern app states to allow 15 minutes for your tickets to appear, so downloading the app and buying the ticket 5 minutes before a train arrives should not be recommended to anyone.

 

[Bantamzen]

The Northern app states to allow 15 minutes for your tickets to appear, so downloading the app and buying the ticket 5 minutes before a train arrives should not be recommended to anyone.

Looking at the FAQs of the new version there's no mention of a 15 minute wait, just that the ticket must be activated at the station.

 

[skyhigh]

Stand near the barriers a Leeds for a while and observe how many people pass through without showing a ticket or putting one in the barrier. Of course, they may have all paid

The barriers at Leeds are rubbish. The number of times I've seen tickets get stuck in the workings/valid tickets rejected/barriers get stuck open so that people can walk through is silly. (Also, unless it's since been fixed, why give the error 'Reject Passback' when you've got a staff barrier pass!)

To confirm, there are no announcements regarding penalty fares at Leeds.