Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Clip]

All I have to say is that my view of this project, noting the original commercial raison d'etre of its originators, remains unchanged, as my view will be that of any managerial view of a commercial project that requires ongoing overheads to facilitate the continuance of it. Others seem to totally ignore the financial realities of the business world and put forward "wait and see" scenarios that would be ideally found in a university R & D project where such well-meaning platitudes have a home.

And yet the backers of the programme who are more than acutely aware of the financial realities of the business world AND this venture are still keen to back it.

So now that we are once again aware of your views upon this project, do you mind putting a sock in it and all the negativity you spout over this project?

 

[northwichcat]

Perhaps the D78s could run a service into Toronto? No need for aircon there!

Really? Toronto is as far south as Madrid and Rome. While it gets cold winters, in July the average temperature is 27oC, with a record temperature of over 40oC once being recorded.

They closed all of their passenger railways and have no idea on how to build a train or run a decent train service!

Having used the Montreal-Toronto service myself I get the impression Via Rail know more about running high quality long distance services than Virgin Trains do.

 

[Rail Blues]

All I have to say is that my view of this project, noting the original commercial raison d'etre of its originators, remains unchanged, as my view will be that of any managerial view of a commercial project that requires ongoing overheads to facilitate the continuance of it. Others seem to totally ignore the financial realities of the business world and put forward "wait and see" scenarios that would be ideally found in a university R & D project where such well-meaning platitudes have a home.

Which is all utterly irrelevant because this is a private initiative backed by private money. Unless you are a shareholder in Vivarail (which I strongly suspect you aren't) then the profit or loss making nature of the business shouldn't concern you. Nevertheless for all yourvaunted experience, you aren't privy to their business case and you have little direct knowledge of the rail industry. The class 230s could be a terrific success or an utter failure, I don't know and neither do you, because we are both mere enthusiasts with no specialist knowledge playing guessing games, the difference being I am fully prepared to admit it.

 

[DarloRich]

I find the argument that "well-to-do" people on rural branch lines would have an adverse reaction to a 230 turning up strange, given that their alternatives at present are:

• 150/2s (built mid-1980s. Tired, dated, increasingly decrepid, no open gangway).
• 153s (technicalities aside, built late 1980s. Single carriage, starting to creak, great big rivets in the side that scream "modern unit".)
• 143s (built mid-1980s. They're Pacers.)

There's no question of 230s replacing 16Xs, so let's drop that one right now. The comparable units they're actually mooted to replace, however, are on their last legs without feasible replacements in the pipeline from any other company - there's only so much cascading of 17Xs you can do, and their capabilities render them over-engineered for rural branch services anyway.

All that in mind, is there really going to be a negative reaction from passengers to a 230 taking over the service? In terms of interior, capacity and component age they're far newer in 90%+ of aspects, and comparable in others. The interior is most important for a passenger, and by all accounts Vivarail have nailed that in their demonstration models.

Their outside appearance isn't really that stark - the slab look is still present on the sides but the cabs look passably "modern" - they remind me a bit of 360s.

Being one of these "well to do patrons" (!) of the very branch line where the street word suggests these trains are heading I will say that we quite like our 150. Chug 2 is old but solid and reliable. The 153's are bobbins. Utter bobbins. They are very tired, unreliable, smelly, cold and increasingly too small for the loadings on our line. We seem likely to lose both types in the impending reshuffle. The 150's can be used to better effect elsewhere on the network and the 153's have a future as capacity enhancers on other sprinter routes after a proper overhaul and some mechanical tlc.

Actually; a couple of pacers would be fine, capacity wise, on our line but I doubt that would happen or go down well. It therefore seems the former underground trains offer a good option for the future and more importantly, offer an opportunity to increase resilience by allowing there to be a spare unit at Bletchley at all times. I was very much against these trains (and would still prefer new trains rather than upcycled ones) BUT things have got so bad on the Vale that we have little to lose. Lets have a look at these units and see what they can do. What is the worst that could happen? Bus replacement?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chug 2 was having trouble this morning, lights out in the Bedford end coach with a concerned guard standing looking at it on the phone. Don't know if they managed to fix it.

The 319s had also been out for a run up and down, I guess a problem with those too. I ran away on the 0706 Southern, which was unusually busy; I guess perhaps a previous most-stops LNR cancellation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having used the Montreal-Toronto service myself I get the impression Via Rail know more about running high quality long distance services than Virgin Trains do.

To be fair, VT is a city metro in comparison with most of VIA's network.

 

[DarloRich]

Chug 2 was having trouble this morning, lights out in the Bedford end coach with a concerned guard standing looking at it on the phone. Don't know if they managed to fix it.

He went out of service for a bit but i am sure he will be back by now! When chug 1 bursts it tends to stay burst all day!

 

[Mordac]

He went out of service for a bit but i am sure he will be back by now! When chug 1 bursts it tends to stay burst all day!

Which one is chug 1 and which chug 2?

 

[DarloRich]

Chug one is the 153. It has one carriage

 

[Mordac]

Chug one is the 153. It has one carriage

Oh, right. I thought they were both 150s, and there was also a chug 3.

 

[DarloRich]

Oh, right. I thought they were both 150s, and there was also a chug 3.

Chug 3 is only seen on a Sunday when the chug brothers return to Tysley. It has also appeared in emergency situations when chug one fails and chug two has to run down to Bedford to drag his brother home! Never in passenegr service mind.

PS - we could classify the bus replacement service this generates as chug 3

( no idea where the name came from it just seems to be used by passengers and staff! i suspect a small person might have come up with it )

 

[Mordac]

Chug 3 is only seen on a Sunday when the chug brothers return to Tysley. It has also appeared in emergency situations when chug one fails and chug two has to run down to Bedford to drag his brother home! Never in passenegr service mind.

PS - we could classify the bus replacement service this generates as chug 3

( no idea where the name came from it just seems to be used by passengers and staff! i suspect a small person might have come up with it )

It all makes sense now, thanks for the explanation. The only time I did the vale I was on chug 2, but I've been on chug 1's cousins in the Nuneaton branch, and they didn't seem as bad as you describe them, although maybe that's because it was off peak and I'm 5ft8.

 

[DarloRich]

It all makes sense now, thanks for the explanation. The only time I did the vale I was on chug 2, but I've been on chug 1's cousins in the Nuneaton branch, and they didn't seem as bad as you describe them, although maybe that's because it was off peak and I'm 5ft8.

it does depend which 153 we get sent but several of them are rotten. One has had an internal redecoration and is fine. They missed the mechanical parts mind..............

 

[delticdave]

Postings on this thread do at times have seen to be a competition by those who can come up with the best reason why Vivarail will prove that they have a "money-spinner" on their hands. It seems a pity it is taking Vivarail so long to prove that point to "the unbelievers". Battery-power appears now to their belief that this mode of traction is "the best thing since sliced bread" but it is not all that long ago that the "quickly-installed" diesel package was the only matter trumpeted by them.

Q? Why do you care so much if Vivalrail succeed or fail with the 230 project? It's not taxpayer funded after all.

Personally I wish them well, Adrian Shooter & his team might well be trundling down a blind alley, but it's not my money that the are borrowing.

If they do manage to get some trains into service, I might make the effort to ride one, but I'm too old to travel very far from home, especially by train..........

 

[delticdave]

My reference to the consultancy hydro project in Canada was one that I had hoped would have needed no clarification as to the meaning of that word, noting the potential water power use of generation of electricity. It appears that my faith in the cognitive understanding by thread followers of this is sadly misplaced, as it did not take so very long for a totally unrelated matter of Canadian railways to surface in the posting above.

Negativity, as you state above, is all that can be attached to the Class 230 project from the date of inception until there appears something that will actually see a return on capital.

Hey, be fair, not all of us understand Canadian English. After watching & listening to a VIA supervisor fault-finding a Stratford
Theatre special train, (F40, 12 x LRC & trailing F40) & he mentioned checking the "hydro" connections between the locos & cars, it didn't take too long to realize that he was referring to the HEP / ETH connectors. From a UK standpoint, hydro-electricity generation is not well known, maybe 'cos we don't have many any snow-covered mountains or gigantic water-falls
to drive the turbines.

 

[delticdave]

Really? Toronto is as far south as Madrid and Rome. While it gets cold winters, in July the average temperature is 27oC, with a record temperature of over 40oC once being recorded.




Having used the Montreal-Toronto service myself I get the impression Via Rail know more about running high quality long distance services than Virgin Trains do.

The local commuter trains in Toronto (& Montreal) use air-conditioned rolling stock with electric heating for the winter months.
I've had 9 vacation visits to Toronto, from May to September & I would never consider renting a car without AC.

As for VIA, although it does run 2 long-distance services, (Toronto-Vancouver 2 or 3 round-trips per week+ Montreal to Halifax, 6 round-trips per week, some using ex Nightstar stock), most of their passenger service (& revenue) is on the the Windsor - Toronto - Ottawa - Montreal corridors, with the longest distance just over 300 miles.
Trains are usually quite short, 3-6 cars, but they are well-used, especially since they provide good service to the intermediate towns, & provide some commuter services too.

 

[OverSpeed]

I've got to say it's pretty damn funny sometimes on this forum when users of an "sane age" spit their dummies out and have a "my train is bigger than your train" spat fest with another user.

In fact it's very typical! Anyway back on topic

Even if the D-train (or whatever viva rail are working on) never actually comes into service, surely with whatever technology comes out of the testing which is deemed to be a success, isn't the fact that other companies within the rail industry could benefit from what comes from their testing and findings?

Or am I missing the point?

 

[HLE]

it does depend which 153 we get sent but several of them are rotten. One has had an internal redecoration and is fine. They missed the mechanical parts mind..............

Two of them to be pedantic. The running gear and bogies were also refurbed on both units. Trouble is the white interior paint is already looking weary where bags/bikes have caught it in the vestibule.

Some are definitely in better condition than others - possibly because one or two seem to be the depot pets. 334 being one of them. Still another 12 months and then they’ll go to EMT.

Which will be a shame because they’ve become almost bullet-proof in the last few years. I reckon one of the main problems on the Vale is the stop start nature of the route and drivers down there apparently favouring full throttle starts, to keep to time I would think - for 30 year old units they don’t have it easy down Bletchley way.

 

[AndrewE]

Even if the D-train (or whatever viva rail are working on) never actually comes into service, surely with whatever technology comes out of the testing which is deemed to be a success, isn't the fact that other companies within the rail industry could benefit from what comes from their testing and findings?

Or am I missing the point?

Yes, I'm afraid you are. Sadly we don't have one railway any more. Viva Rail are a private company who have sunk their own (and their shareholders') money into the job and what they have learnt is their intellectual property. If another company want to benefit then they could, but they ought to pay Viva Rail for the info through a consultancy contract, fair's fair.

 

[DarloRich]

Two of them to be pedantic. The running gear and bogies were also refurbed on both units. Trouble is the white interior paint is already looking weary where bags/bikes have caught it in the vestibule.

Some are definitely in better condition than others - possibly because one or two seem to be the depot pets. 334 being one of them. Still another 12 months and then they’ll go to EMT.

Which will be a shame because they’ve become almost bullet-proof in the last few years. I reckon one of the main problems on the Vale is the stop start nature of the route and drivers down there apparently favouring full throttle starts, to keep to time I would think - for 30 year old units they don’t have it easy down Bletchley way.

They are anything but bullet proof down here!

 

[brel york]

When did people suddenly think they have a god given right to brand new state of the art dmu/emu , if these units make lines more viable then that’s a positive thing

 

[WatcherZero]

Which is all utterly irrelevant because this is a private initiative backed by private money. Unless you are a shareholder in Vivarail (which I strongly suspect you aren't) then the profit or loss making nature of the business shouldn't concern you. Nevertheless for all yourvaunted experience, you aren't privy to their business case and you have little direct knowledge of the rail industry. The class 230s could be a terrific success or an utter failure, I don't know and neither do you, because we are both mere enthusiasts with no specialist knowledge playing guessing games, the difference being I am fully prepared to admit it.

Apart from the government research grants and the finacial support County Durham is giving them to open this battery pack assembly plant.

 

[SamYeager]

All I have to say is that my view of this project, noting the original commercial raison d'etre of its originators, remains unchanged, as my view will be that of any managerial view of a commercial project that requires ongoing overheads to facilitate the continuance of it.

That's fine and there's no reason why you shouldn't have that view. The trouble is that you keep going on and on and on and on and on and on about it!

I only stumbled on this thread by accident and I certainly couldn't give a toss whether or not this venture fails miserably, breaks even or make a profit. Why you can't you just give those of us following this thread a rest from your unremitting negativity?

If it all results in a thumping loss for the investors then you can come along and say "I told you so" but until then we know your views, we know that whatever happens they won't change but we would really appreciate if you would just find another thread in which to post.

 

[47802]

That's fine and there's no reason why you shouldn't have that view. The trouble is that you keep going on and on and on and on and on and on about it!

I only stumbled on this thread by accident and I certainly couldn't give a toss whether or not this venture fails miserably, breaks even or make a profit. Why you can't you just give those of us following this thread a rest from your unremitting negativity?

If it all results in a thumping loss for the investors then you can come along and say "I told you so" but until then we know your views, we know that whatever happens they won't change but we would really appreciate if you would just find another thread in which to post.

Not sure it' any different to those who keep trying to make out this train Is great. From a personal viewpoint I don' care if Viavarail are successful or not but as rail traveller i dont want to have to travel on them.

 

[brel york]

Not sure it' any different to those who keep trying to make out this train Is great. From a personal viewpoint I don' care if Viavarail are successful or not but as rail traveller i dont want to have to travel on them.

Well don’t then , it’s simple

 

[47802]

Well don’t then , it’s simple

No it isn' if these things end up in a line you regularly use

 

[keith1879]

Not sure it' any different to those who keep trying to make out this train Is great. From a personal viewpoint I don' care if Viavarail are successful or not but as rail traveller i dont want to have to travel on them.

Who is doing that? Is saying "Give them a chance until we can see" making out that they are great? Is saying that "a 30 year old class 150 with a cramped and poor refurbishment is rubbish" making out that 230s are great? Is arguing against unremitting negativity the same as making out that 230s are great?

This is post number 5727 (give or take a couple) ....I doubt if I could find even one that "makes out they are great". I am certain that there aren't a significant number even if there is one.

 

[Nicks]

Looking at the latest Companies House returns (all in the public domain) on Vivarail shows it must have almost run out of cash and had to be refinanced several times this year - the original American backer (RDC) has doubled it's initial £8 million odd investment. Interestingly Mr Shooter only has £304 in shares in the business (out of £17million!).

 

[47802]

Who is doing that? Is saying "Give them a chance until we can see" making out that they are great? Is saying that "a 30 year old class 150 with a cramped and poor refurbishment is rubbish" making out that 230s are great? Is arguing against unremitting negativity the same as making out that 230s are great?

This is post number 5727 (give or take a couple) ....I doubt if I could find even one that "makes out they are great". I am certain that there aren't a significant number even if there is one.

I don't have to give them a chance and my opinion is of no relevance at the end of the day, but fundamentally they are still a solution looking for a problem now that Northern has other solutions to the Pacer problem, and so far other TOC's have gone for other options apart from possibly the limited case of Marston Vale, so it seems to me they are flogging a dead horse and for reasons I have explained at length previously I hope it stays that way.

 

[mushroomchow]

Looking at the latest Companies House returns (all in the public domain) on Vivarail shows it must have almost run out of cash and had to be refinanced several times this year - the original American backer (RDC) has doubled it's initial £8 million odd investment. Interestingly Mr Shooter only has £304 in shares in the business (out of £17million!).

I hear Bermuda is in the market for a railway network.