ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Macwomble]

With the First Minister said to be buying a place in Upper Bridge of Allan, what's the chances that the morning peaks from Perth/Dunblane to Edinburgh will be upgraded to HST operation with full First Class?

No need for HST....just make the 385s 4 car (or 4 + 3) instead of 3 (or 2 x 3)

 

[InOban]

With the First Minister said to be buying a place in Upper Bridge of Allan, what's the chances that the morning peaks from Perth/Dunblane to Edinburgh will be upgraded to HST operation with full First Class?

I've seen reports in the press suggesting that she hardly ever uses the train.

 

[reddragon]

That’s so unfair! Scotland get our gorgeous first class interiors and we have to make do with hard back aching iet first class seats!

Die in comfort on a HST or live in pain on an IET

 

[Highland37]

Yes. All stations, including unmanned ones, are getting new cycle storage systems - similar to the cycle pods ones which will have a roof over them to keep the worst of the weather off the bikes. Ayr has quite a large capacity one but never seen any bikes on it so far and its been there over a yesr now.

That's good. They are really required.

 

[Highland37]

I've seen reports in the press suggesting that she hardly ever uses the train.

I don't think many leaders can due to their schedule. But "reports in the press" in Scotland usually mean one thing...

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

I've seen reports in the press suggesting that she hardly ever uses the train.

Can’t comment on recently but when she was a lowly minister below Alex Salmond I saw her regularly in Glasgow Central. Unless she was just popping in to get the latest edition of Modern Railways of course.

 

[47271]

I used to see her on the Glasgow Underground quite regularly in the 2002-3 era.

 

[InOban]

Can I remind posters that the specification of the refurbishment of the HSTs, and of the 158s is determined by Transport Scotland,not the TOC. If you want some seats removed to make more space for bikes in the coaches, then first, you have to demand this from TS, and second appreciate that Abellio will be entitled to recompense for the revenue they would have got from the seats which have been removed.

 

[route:oxford]

No need for HST....just make the 385s 4 car (or 4 + 3) instead of 3 (or 2 x 3)

No juice at BofA yet. The peak service also starts from Perth, which probably won't get knitted up for decades.

Can’t comment on recently but when she was a lowly minister below Alex Salmond I saw her regularly in Glasgow Central. Unless she was just popping in to get the latest edition of Modern Railways of course.

Likewise when I used to deal with her when she was a trainee divorce lawyer in Stirling, would often see her at the station.

A "Scottish State Carriage" would work quite well on a dedicated set to operate the 07:11 service.

 

[Highland37]

Can I remind posters that the specification of the refurbishment of the HSTs, and of the 158s is determined by Transport Scotland,not the TOC. If you want some seats removed to make more space for bikes in the coaches, then first, you have to demand this from TS, and second appreciate that Abellio will be entitled to recompense for the revenue they would have got from the seats which have been removed.

Can I remind you that this has long been "demanded" with the most obvious evidence of this being through the Spokes campaign. I know several MSPs are looking into this.

I don't get your point about compensation. I can't see any precedent or agreement that says if you remove seats then you owe us £x. It was Abellio who came up with the HSTs and their spec for bikes.

 

[najaB]

I don't get your point about compensation. I can't see any precedent or agreement that says if you remove seats then you owe us £x. It was Abellio who came up with the HSTs and their spec for bikes.

Abellio would have come up with the plans based on a spec from Transport Scotland and built a business case based on the plans as approved by Transport Scotland. If TS unilaterally change the requirements then Abellio would be well within their rights to expect some form of compensation.

 

[Highland37]

Abellio would have come up with the plans based on a spec from Transport Scotland and built a business case based on the plans as approved by Transport Scotland. If TS unilaterally change the requirements then Abellio would be well within their rights to expect some form of compensation.

Yes, and has that happened? The opposite seems to be true. TS and Abellio publicised a spec and they are both now trying to move away from that position.

 

[najaB]

Yes, and has that happened? The opposite seems to be true. TS and Abellio publicised a spec and they are both now trying to move away from that position.

I didn't say that they have made a claim, just that they would be within their rights to if TS unilaterally changed the requirements.

 

[Highland37]

Theoretically but I am sceptical as to whether it would stand and also as to who is to "blame", as they say, here.

Everytime I contact Abellio, they will not give an answer. Based on this, I believe it to be mainly Abellio who are behind the drive to reduce bikes spaces.

On the 11th of August they said:

I can not confirm anything yet I'm afraid, details will be posted here: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-scotrail/new-trains when this info is available. ^AE

On the 1st of October they said:

this is not yet confirmed I'm afraid ^M

Given that the trains are now being refurbished, clearly the numbers of bike spaces have been decided. But they wont say.

 

[brel york]

Theoretically but I am sceptical as to whether it would stand and also as to who is to "blame", as they say, here.

Everytime I contact Abellio, they will not give an answer. Based on this, I believe it to be mainly Abellio who are behind the drive to reduce bikes spaces.

On the 11th of August the said:

I can not confirm anything yet I'm afraid, details will be posted here: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-scotrail/new-trains when this info is available. ^AE

On the 1st of October they said:

this is not yet confirmed I'm afraid ^M

Given that the trains are now being refurbished, clearly the numbers of bike spaces have been decided. But they wont say.

Your not going to get a lot of bike spaces in place of a luggage stack and toilet

 

[brel york]

In fact tomorrow morning I will go on the TS(b) to measure your space

 

[InOban]

Who is paying for the refurb? Abellio or Transport Scotland?

 

[Paul Kerr]

My understanding was that they were part of the structure , surprised they took them out

Did the buffet cars have the steel partition as well? The steel partition was in the center of the car, right? Most buffet cars only had 3 bays for the passenger seating with the remainder of the coach being for the buffet/kitchen etc so I'd be surprised if the partition could be accommodated with the internal layout of these coaches.

 

[Paul Kerr]

Spot on. The best example is a cardboard kitchen roll tube.

Press it at each end and nothing happens. Put a small hole in the middle and it will fold at the point the hole was made.

I have said for years that the central partitions that were removed from the GW Mk3 should have never been taken out.

They were made of steel for a reason.

Thanks dubscottie and 43096 for the info on what happened at Ufton Nervet. I think herein lies one of the issues we have seen repeatedly on high speed crashes involving MK3's- the bogies do appear to get detached pretty easily (it's happened on pretty much all of the crashes discussed). Not sure if that happens on newer generations of coaches or what could be done practically to prevent that from happening.

 

[Far north 37]

That’s so unfair! Scotland get our gorgeous first class interiors and we have to make do with hard back aching iet first class seats!

So which one is it your contradicting yourself here.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

View attachment 40600
So which one is it your contradicting yourself here.

I love the GWR First class seats they are stylish and comfortable but I understand why some people find them a little hard.

 

[Far north 37]

You quoted yourself you found them hard and then moaned that they were getting replaced by stock with hard seats.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You quoted yourself you found them hard and then moaned that they were getting replaced by stock with hard seats.

Well I love them. I do find them hard but I don’t mind that!

 

[swaldman]

Can I remind posters that the specification of the refurbishment of the HSTs, and of the 158s is determined by Transport Scotland,not the TOC. If you want some seats removed to make more space for bikes in the coaches, then first, you have to demand this from TS, and second appreciate that Abellio will be entitled to recompense for the revenue they would have got from the seats which have been removed.

Why a loss of revenue, when Scotrail management is on record as saying that there is "no maximum capacity" for their trains? Sadly one doesn't get a partial refund for having to stand for 3 hours...

 

[JohnR]

I think the Tactran data being discussed on the other thread show what a large percentage of demand is for only a few stations:
http://www.tactran.gov.uk/documents/4GSSPHMLProjectandTimetableDev.pdf

Allowing additional use of the Power Car bike spaces for Perth, Dundee, Stirling, Aviemore and Pitlochry would deal with over 90% of journeys and let the 2 in coach spaces deal with all the minor stations cyclists.

The power cars will only be available for end-to-end journeys, eg Glasgow - Inverness, and not at intermediate stations.

 

[route101]

Noticed HST boards up at Croy . Unlikely they will stop there .

 

[jopsuk]

The power cars will only be available for end-to-end journeys, eg Glasgow - Inverness, and not at intermediate stations.

Yes- Altnabreac's point is that it wouldn't be that hard to facilitate the use of them at the larger manned stations (especially if reservations are required) and would be much more passenger friendly for biking hotspots such as Pitlochry and Aviemore

 

[NotATrainspott]

Noticed HST boards up at Croy . Unlikely they will stop there .

I wonder just how rigorously ScotRail will keep HSTs to HST services. While I assume they won't ever end up on the Anniesland turn, it seems semi-plausible that they'll run an E&G service once in a while (e.g. at the end of the day when they need to get back to Haymarket).

 

[gordonjahn]

Noticed HST boards up at Croy . Unlikely they will stop there .

Same at Lenzie - Lenzie gets a non-stop to GLQ at 0820 Mon-Sat that's ex Aberdeen and on a Sunday morning, the first service LNZ heading North/East is GLQ-ABD too. I'd assume in the fullness of time these will all be HST services. I can see it being worth putting the signs up at Croy if only for the situations where other trains are cancelled and they need to stick a stop-order on, or - as you say - if stock needs to move between Glasgow and Edinburgh or vice-versa.

Maybe the daily Fife-GLQ and return services will end up HST too, although they don't stop at Croy either, as I've learned to my "get-off-and-head-back-at-Larbert" cost before.

 

[Altnabreac]

Isn't that going to be a fact of life in most networks? Probably applies to any network too, like gas or water. There might be some, like maybe an even-density evenly-served conurbation where it's not, but most will have less heavily used lines or stations.
It only matters when you forget (or abandon) a remit to serve everyone as well as possible within a budget and move to cost-cutting mode - which can end up with the service being unusable apart from serving one select group.

The power cars will only be available for end-to-end journeys, eg Glasgow - Inverness, and not at intermediate stations.

Yes- Altnabreac's point is that it wouldn't be that hard to facilitate the use of them at the larger manned stations (especially if reservations are required) and would be much more passenger friendly for biking hotspots such as Pitlochry and Aviemore

Yes. The point I was trying to make was that there is a reasonable compromise position on bike spaces that could be found.

There are lots of spaces in the Powercar but possibly not enough in the body of the train.

Abellio don't want the guard to have to unlock the power car at every small station as it could slow down journey times and Power Car might not fit on some shorter platforms.

Usage statistics show that the vast majority of journeys involve the big 7 cities and Aviemore.

So the compromise position is to allow the Power Car bike spaces to be used only at a small number of intermediate stations. Definitely should include: Perth, Dundee, Stirling, Aviemore and maybe also Pitlochry, Arbroath, Montrose, Stonehaven, Elgin.