Idea for vending machines on UK stock

[pompeyfan]

Recently there was quite a debate about trolley services serving substandard grub, or not being on the train at all.

Would it be feasible to install vending machines to supplement the trolley services. I’m not talking about on every coach, just one per unit (obviously depends on stock). Realistically you’d have to sacrifice about 4 seats, you’d have to power it off the carriage and it wouldn’t be able to sell alcohol as there’s a risk children could buy it. It could serve a selection of sausage rolls, sandwiches, crisps and hot drinks.

Security could be a concern but on train I’d suggest it’s more secure (on 2nd crew services) than the respective platform based machines.

Just a thought, obviously not trying to do catering staff out of a job, but it’s not uncommon for passengers to ask the guard if there is a trolley on board on services that aren’t usually allocated refreshments.

 

[D365]

Is the mass of an off-the-shelf vending machine equivalent to four adults?

 

[47802]

I'm not sure I would use it to supplement existing catering but a coffee machine might be welcome on some longer routes that don't have any catering, but then again that may cost 2 seats or luggage space on a 2 car sprinter.

 

[Darkinsider]

deleted

 

[Lrd]

I brought up vending machines a few years ago with a consultant who had a long career as a manager of some capacity in railway passenger servces. He said it had been tried but the electronics in vending machines of the day could not cope with electric trains voltage interruptions such as neutral sections etc. It may well have been they where not willing to try anything but off the shelf.

All they would need is a battery for the electronics, the cooling doesn't need to be constantly running.

 

[D365]

All they would need is a battery for the electronics, the cooling doesn't need to be constantly running.

Onboard batteries are another issue in themselves

 

[LOL The Irony]

Onboard batteries are another issue in themselves

Use a heavy duty battery like trucks and air cool it?

 

[47802]

Don't some French trains have vending machines?

 

[daikilo]

All they would need is a battery for the electronics, the cooling doesn't need to be constantly running.

With current food safety regulations, temperature control and monitoring is actually very important which means that an overnight shutdown is not feasible unless any temperature-sensitive food is removed to temperature-controlled storage. An alternative could be local berth-power. In addition, cleanliness means that any machine containing liquids needs to be cleaned possibly daily, and it takes a while to do properly.

My view is that a choice of products which avoids the critical issues above is almost mandatory but probably excludes a 'made' hot drink and sandwiches. I have always believed however that not having a machine or two in a bar area when it is closed is a missed opportunity (the logic being that it needs temperature control and to be cleaned anyway).

 

[D365]

Use a heavy duty battery like trucks and air cool it?

If you’re already taking out 2-4 seats for the vending machine itself, where do you find the space to install larger/additional auxiliary batteries?

I’ve been doing a bit of research into combining battery tech and discontinuous electrification, adding a vending machine or two on top of the existing auxiliaries would be painful to say the least...

 

[Alfie1014]

Many continental trains have vending machines, not least in Scandinavia, though some in Norway and Finland also have un-limited self service tea and coffee in first class as well.

 

[takno]

For tea and coffee you would likely need to deal with the bag issue for safe transport around the train. The machine would need refilling and servicing daily or more as well, which doesn't map well with service and stabling schedules. You've already mentioned that you couldn't carry one of the highest margin items, and if you're down to pre-packaged items then most customers could have trivially bought them at the station, and often not paid the VAT which would be chargeable on the train.

It might work in other European countries but that may require some combination of less intensive stock usage, larger subsidies and less intensive accounting hiding the losses, cheaper labour costs, differing attitudes to safety, lower cultural antipathy to vending machines, bigger loading gauge.

There can also be a very different retail environment outside the trains. I've certainly got onto early trains on the continent and been quite tempted by vending machines, but only because the buffet hadn't opened on the station and there were no signs of life anywhere else in the town. In a similar town in the UK I could have already bought coffee at least three times before I got to the station, and often at least twice once I was there.

 

[30907]

Back in 1962 the WR introduced an Autobuffet car on the Cambrian Coast Express by converting one compartment of a Mk1 SK. ISTR it had technical issues and didn't last long - and that was long before current food hygiene regs.

 

[AlexNL]

Don't some French trains have vending machines?

Norwegian trains certainly do, and they also use an AC system (15 kV 16,7 Hz).

The Dutch Valleilijn trains also have vending machines, but wouldn't suffer from neutral sections as the Dutch railways are electrified using a DC system.

 

[Rail Blues]

I really think is by and large a solution looking for a problem. The range and quality of the catering at most stations has hugely improved in the last decade. I'd far rather turn up early, buy a coffee and a snack from the station or another nearby coffee shop rather than face the horror of the muck that comes out of an onboard vending machine.

 

[northwichcat]

In Spain Renfe have vending machines on the equivalent of 175s.

 

[Segedunum]

In Spain Renfe have vending machines on the equivalent of 175s.

Not too badly priced either. Iirc they sit in a space near the toilet and were quite well used on the journey from Seville to Málaga (about 2hrs 30mins)

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I can't imagine it working on a class 150, plus how long would it be before someone vends a Snickers and the thing is rancid, as its gone off and is only fit for the bin. If a tea/coffee machine was rigged in then I wouldn't say no, but if its food then that is when I'd start to worry.

It could work on a reformed Voyager, and I do mean reformed into seven coaches rather than the "fun size" of four or five car jokes that are not suitable for todays passenger numbers.

 

[Rail Blues]

they sit in a space near the toilet

Now you're really selling it to me!

 

[mallard]

The range and quality of the catering at most stations has hugely improved in the last decade.

It's done what now? Maybe in a few of the larger city stations they've added a shopping centre with food court to the station complex, but most stations have seen little change, at best, in available catering. Long gone are the days when even semi-rural stations had a cafe or kiosk. With the proliferation of ticket barriers, on-platform facilities are very much on the decline, being replaced with on-concourse facilities (including those shopping centres) which are difficult to for interchanging passengers to access (usually requiring passengers to beg staff for special dispensation to pass the barriers, then awkwardly explain the situation to another member of staff upon their return, all the time at risk of being denied or even PF'd by revenue staff).

Not to mention that passengers of "Advance" tickets are simply not permitted to leave the train at intermediate stations, so when they discover that on-board catering is below the expected standard, or non-existent, they have no choice but to wait until they reach the destination.

Vending machines do seem like a good solution. Obviously the experience in other countries (which of course the British industry will steadfastly refuse to draw upon, as per usual) proves that the potential food hygiene issues are not insurmountable. Many trains that currently have pathetic (and disruptive; I've more than once had the trolley cut me off from my luggage when attempting to disembark) trolley services also have disused shop/buffet areas, so replacing those with vending machines wouldn't cost any passenger space.

 

[Rail Blues]

Sorry, but your experience doesn't tally with mine at all. A great deal of the suburban and the better used semi rural stations have better facilities than ten years ago, even those without services at the station will have a coffee van parked up, serving something far better than you'd get out of a vending machine.

 

[northwichcat]

Sorry, but your experience doesn't tally with mine at all. A great deal of the suburban and the better used semi rural stations have better facilities than ten years ago, even those without services at the station will have a coffee van parked up, serving something far better than you'd get out of a vending machine.

10 years ago you could get nothing from my local station. Now you can get cold refreshments from a vending machine located in the ticket office but if you want a hot drink or snack you need to go to a cafe or supermarket for one.

 

[Rail Blues]

To which I should have added the proviso, that I regularly use!

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I'd far rather turn up early, buy a coffee and a snack from the station or another nearby coffee shop rather than face the horror of the muck that comes out of an onboard vending machine.

How exactly does a can of Coke or a pack of crisps sold in a vending machine differ from one bought in a cafe? (Trick question: the Coke from the vending machine is properly cold, the one in the cafe is probably luke-warm.)

Coffee I'll grant you. But even then, if I'm on a two-hour train journey and want a coffee, I'm hardly going to get off at an intermediate station, buy a beautiful cup of coffee, then wait an hour for the next one. Similarly if I'm starting my journey any time after 10.30am (the time that the coffee shop at our station closes).

 

[northwichcat]

Coffee I'll grant you. But even then, if I'm on a two-hour train journey and want a coffee, I'm hardly going to get off at an intermediate station, buy a beautiful cup of coffee, then wait an hour for the next one. Similarly if I'm starting my journey any time after 10.30am (the time that the coffee shop at our station closes).

The type of machine can affect the temperature the drink is served at. The coffee machines in Waitrose seem to serve warm coffee, those in Booths seem to serve hot coffee.

 

[D365]

... those in Booths seem to serve hot coffee.

I thought that they served hot metal?


Sorry...

 

[Rail Blues]

How exactly does a can of Coke or a pack of crisps sold in a vending machine differ from one bought in a cafe? (Trick question: the Coke from the vending machine is properly cold, the one in the cafe is probably luke-warm.)

Coffee I'll grant you. But even then, if I'm on a two-hour train journey and want a coffee, I'm hardly going to get off at an intermediate station, buy a beautiful cup of coffee, then wait an hour for the next one. Similarly if I'm starting my journey any time after 10.30am (the time that the coffee shop at our station closes).

Easy one: involves the loss of train seating, requires potentially cumbersome and expensive re-engineering, takes a train out of service for longer than would have been the case and requires more staff hours to maintain and restock it, the coke and crisps from the café doesn't.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

That doesn't exactly qualify as "the horror of the muck" which you were promising, does it?

 

[AlexNL]

plus how long would it be before someone vends a Snickers and the thing is rancid, as its gone off and is only fit for the bin. If a tea/coffee machine was rigged in then I wouldn't say no, but if its food then that is when I'd start to worry.

Vending machines should be able to indicate how long it's been since they've last sold a product, and the person restocking them should be responsible to check the expiry date of products that have been in the machine for quite some while.

If a product has gone rancid prior to its expiration date a customer can contact the manufacturer (likely to be Mars Corp) to get a refund.

 

[Bevan Price]

There might be occasions when a vending machine on trains might be useful. But there are snags, like:
How to keep it replenished on trains that have 5 -10 minute turnrounds at each end of their journeys?

Where to fit it on our toy-sized trains without reducing seating capacity that is already inadequate?
How do you access the machine and then safely carry your purchases through a coach wedged with standing passengers?

For safety reasons, I think drinks would all need to be sealed in cans or plastic bottles, and food would need to have shelf life better than "use today" - so a lot of unhealthy / junk food type of materials (sweets, chocolate, crisps, pies, etc.)