Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Clip]

So a D230 is not old then? have you been on a D230? what's the ride like at 60mph and what's the noise like? and isn't potentially just as draughty as a 150.

You seem to know so much about these trains so I could ask you the exact same questions but will you be willing to answer?

It does not offer the passenger environment you would expect from a new Air-Conditioned train

How do you know? Have you been on D230? What's the passenger environment like? How does the Air con compare to a modern train?

 

[47802]

You seem to know so much about these trains so I could ask you the exact same questions but will you be willing to answer?



How do you know? Have you been on D230? What's the passenger environment like? How does the Air con compare to a modern train?

I don't know the answer to those questions but I am asking the question to those who seem to think that they know a D230 will be better than a 150. Obviously most people including myself will have been on a D train at some point, that will give some idea of ambiance which I would describe as OK for a short distance Metro Train but of course it doesn't tell us what the noise levels of a D230 will be like or the ride at 60mph as TFL didn't generally run them at that speed. I also don't understand your reference to Air Con since a D230 doesn't have Aircon except to say its a minus compared to a new Air Conditioned Train.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I keep trying to compare your "points of dislike" for the hypothetical 230 specification to which you refer, to the known equivalent factors in the proposed refurbished 150 unit. NOWHERE have I claimed the one to be better than the other; but neither am I claiming one to be worse. 230s in any given configuration may well be noisy, draughty and cramped. Or they may not. I don't know for they have not been specified; merely demonstrated in certain variations. I don't know how well the doors work on them; I don't know how many doors will be sealed up. And so on. We do know what a refurbished 150 is going to look like on Northern, and (IMO) it's no better than the day they were introduced - and that's pretty dire (IMO). And they are both EQUALLY recycled/reused/old/cast offs etc.

 

[Roose]

Perhaps this should be renamed the 'Class 230 Grumbles, Spats and Internet Outrage' thread and a 'Class 230 News and Updates' thread created to avoid having to read the same, tired arguments that have gone on for months and months?

 

[SamYeager]

Perhaps this should be renamed the 'Class 230 Grumbles, Spats and Internet Outrage' thread and a 'Class 230 News and Updates' thread created to avoid having to read the same, tired arguments that have gone on for months and months?

That would just result in two threads with equally annoying waste of space posts.

 

[47802]

I keep trying to compare your "points of dislike" for the hypothetical 230 specification to which you refer, to the known equivalent factors in the proposed refurbished 150 unit. NOWHERE have I claimed the one to be better than the other; but neither am I claiming one to be worse. 230s in any given configuration may well be noisy, draughty and cramped. Or they may not. I don't know for they have not been specified; merely demonstrated in certain variations. I don't know how well the doors work on them; I don't know how many doors will be sealed up. And so on. We do know what a refurbished 150 is going to look like on Northern, and (IMO) it's no better than the day they were introduced - and that's pretty dire (IMO). And they are both EQUALLY recycled/reused/old/cast offs etc.

Well yes we know that different configs are available for the 230 as there are potentially different refurbishment options for a 150, but in terms overall ambience I would expect both trains to be much of a muchness. But their are 2 fundamental points with regard to Northern the first is that for Northern a 150 is more flexible train, and the second point is that had these trains been allowed in the Northern ITT then they would have likely been at the expense of better rolling stock that Northern is now getting rather than 150's and the Northern franchise would have had even more recycled/reused/old cast offs etc as you put it.

 

[railfan100]

The fact that a national rail system with well over £40 billion of debt that is underwritten by the poor taxpayer when TOC franchise operations are run for profit sums up the mess we are in. The overall cost base must be the highest in the world for running a network? With all this high cost having to use a design such as the 230 is really quite comical.

 

[gsnedders]

The fact that a national rail system with well over £40 billion of debt that is underwritten by the poor taxpayer when TOC franchise operations are run for profit sums up the mess we are in. The overall cost base must be the highest in the world for running a network? With all this high cost having to use a design such as the 230 is really quite comical.

AFAIK, total British expenditure (farebox and subsidy combined) is below the European average per passenger km.

 

[Harpers Tate]

....with regard to Northern....

who aren't getting them. This in itself does not render 230s any more or less suitable for use on numerous parts of the network, and is now, therefore, wholly irrelevant.

 

[47802]

who aren't getting them. This in itself does not render 230s any more or less suitable for use on numerous parts of the network, and is now, therefore, wholly irrelevant.

Not really as the same arguments with regard to Northern can also apply to other franchises particularly the welsh franchise which also has a significant Pacer fleet.

Obviously we await the long term Rolling stock plan for the Welsh franchise, but so far the franchises are not voting for D230's, Northern are covering any DMU shortfall with 769's the Welsh are also obtaining 769's to cover for PRM work, perhaps Vivarail can take some credit for that project, would Porterbrook have come up with that solution if it hadn't have been for Vivarail? The other franchises don't have large fleets of Railbuses to replace and as such as D230 could look like an even more poor quality solution against their current stock, GWR seem to prefer to run short HST sets rather than have D230's on their branch lines, while Anglia obtained a fleet of new trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The fact that a national rail system with well over £40 billion of debt that is underwritten by the poor taxpayer when TOC franchise operations are run for profit sums up the mess we are in. The overall cost base must be the highest in the world for running a network? With all this high cost having to use a design such as the 230 is really quite comical.

Is it any more comical than the scratch-set old LHCS that knocks around various bits of the mainland European network?

(Not that we don't have our own version of that in Cumbria, though...)

 

[northwichcat]

Northern are covering any DMU shortfall with 769's

The confirmed 769s are covering a shortfall in the planned wiring opposed to a DMU shortfall. Although, there is a rumour Northern are getting 3 extra 769s due to GWR wanting to keep a few 150s which Northern had expected to get.

 

[47802]

The confirmed 769s are covering a shortfall in the planned wiring opposed to a DMU shortfall. Although, there is a rumour Northern are getting 3 extra 769s due to GWR wanting to keep a few 150s which Northern had expected to get.

Yes but its still essentially a DMU shortfall as a result, as is GWR's shortfall with electrification delays and reduced scope.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Article published today on Railway Gazette International.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...pen-production-facility-in-county-durham.html
Full text:

Vivarail to open production facility in County Durham

UK: Next month Vivarail is to open a plant on the Spectrum Business Park at Seaham in County Durham where it will assemble powerpacks and wiring looms for the D Train multiple-units which it plans to produce using bodyshells and bogies from withdrawn London Underground D78 trainsets.

Vivarail is investing 'up to £100 000' in the Seaham site, and is being supported by economic development organisation Business Durham on behalf of Durham County Council. ‘By investing in County Durham and pledging to use regional suppliers where possible, Vivarail is expected to have a real impact on the rail industry and the economy’, said Peter Rippingale, inward investment manager at Business Durham.

Three types of powerpack would be assembled at the new plant, including a battery-only system which Vivarail is developing with £640 000 of grant funding from innovation agency Innovate UK.

Once operational and subject to future orders, Vivarail’s Seaham site could expand to include the refurbishment of a number of other train parts, such as the bogies.

'As Vivarail looked to expand and open a new site, the North East was a very attractive location for us, most notably because of its highly skilled pool of engineering and manufacturing workers’, said Vivarail CEO Adrian Shooter on December 11. ‘The region already has a strong rail industry and we want to tap into this and look to buy locally where we can. Plus, we also have the opportunity to expand further here, depending on the speed and scale of future orders.'

Not a vast investment at £100,000 and note the large grant funding bung.

 

[D365]

That's an interesting report. Perhaps they are looking at supplying their technology to continental rolling stock manufacturers?

 

[Clip]

I don't know the answer to those questions but I am asking the question to those who seem to think that they know a D230 will be better than a 150. Obviously most people including myself will have been on a D train at some point, that will give some idea of ambiance which I would describe as OK for a short distance Metro Train but of course it doesn't tell us what the noise levels of a D230 will be like or the ride at 60mph as TFL didn't generally run them at that speed. I also don't understand your reference to Air Con since a D230 doesn't have Aircon except to say its a minus compared to a new Air Conditioned Train.

Ind3eed you don't but yet you object outright anyone else's opinion about the two which is why I asked you the same questions.

 

[Occtraveller]

Yes but its still essentially a DMU shortfall as a result, as is GWR's shortfall with electrification delays and reduced scope.

I assume that's because GWR now need to keep more 165/166 at Reading for the Windsor, Henley-on-Thames and Basingstoke services. That means fewer of them available for Bristol, preventing 150s cascade to the South West branches to replace the Pacers.

It's just occurred to me to check the Sectional Appendix for the line speeds and platform lengths on the Maidenhead-Bourne End-Marlow line, to see if the 230 could serve a purpose there. Electrification has been ruled out due to the very short Down platform at Bourne End, which is listed as only 47 metres, tight even for a 2-car 165. The trouble is, no-one is making 2-car EMUs, and even a 3x20m would probably foul the points. Could 3x18m be made to fit? It looks like there might be room on Google Maps satellite view, although various services on the platform would have to move.

The speed limit on the branch is only 50mph, for 3 miles 69 chains from Maidenhead to Bourne End (but stopping at Furze Platt and Cookham). Then there's a 40 limit for 2mi14ch up to Marlow, with no stops.

The main problem would be stabling; an empty coaching stock run from Reading would be slower than a 165 and could potentially hold up traffic on the reliefs. That said, it looks like they may be stabling at Bourne End at present, at least during the week.

Apologies if this has already been discussed on the thread!

 

[Bletchleyite]

This might well be another suitable niche - particularly in the D-stock layout where there will be enough seating off-peak and a better way to cram people in in the peaks to avoid the extra change.

 

[mushroomchow]

Maybe we could compile a list of lines they are, or could be, suitable for?

I can think of various more rural branch lines, in the east in particular, with no electrification prospects and where a "Crawler" would be suitable due to low line speeds.

 

[Domh245]

The main problem would be stabling; an empty coaching stock run from Reading would be slower than a 165 and could potentially hold up traffic on the reliefs. That said, it looks like they may be stabling at Bourne End at present, at least during the week.

One of Vivarail's marketing points is that the train is low maintenance and can be easily repaired away from depots (barring major works) - so it's feasible that the train could just be left captive on the line much like the people movers in Stourbridge

 

[Arriva 175]

I'm sure GWR may have already looked into this but I wonder if Class 153s with a DDA exemption of sorts would be more suitable for the likes of Slough to Windsor than a 165. These are 75mph max speed and so would have no problems getting to Reading Depot for servicing? If the stations have toilets on then the trains don't need to hence a possible DDA exemption. Merseyrail and tram networks being a case in point.
The problem with the 230 idea is its entire nature. Its engine is untried and so far untested on the mainline. Any TOC would be taking a gamble and performance on the modern rail network is everything. Plus its from the 1970s no matter how much its tarted up.

 

[superalbs]

I'm sure GWR may have already looked into this but I wonder if Class 153s with a DDA exemption of sorts would be more suitable for the likes of Slough to Windsor than a 165. These are 75mph max speed and so would have no problems getting to Reading Depot for servicing? If the stations have toilets on then the trains don't need to hence a possible DDA exemption. Merseyrail and tram networks being a case in point.
The problem with the 230 idea is its entire nature. Its engine is untried and so far untested on the mainline. Any TOC would be taking a gamble and performance on the modern rail network is everything. Plus its from the 1970s no matter how much its tarted up.

That line is certainly not a quiet one, full and standing two car 165 I got, on a Saturday a few months back.

 

[JonathanH]

The main problem would be stabling; an empty coaching stock run from Reading would be slower than a 165 and could potentially hold up traffic on the reliefs. That said, it looks like they may be stabling at Bourne End at present, at least during the week.

When the units stable at Twyford or Bourne End overnight, there are additional workings during the day from Reading Traincare Depot to swap the units over.

 

[D1009]

an empty coaching stock run from Reading would be slower than a 165 and could potentially hold up traffic on the reliefs. That said, it looks like they may be stabling at Bourne End at present, at least during the week.

Such an ECS would be no slower than the average freight train, the fact most passenger trains call at Twyford would make up for the maximum speed deficiency.

 

[47802]

I think if GWR were interested in using D trains on these branches there would have been progress in that direction by now. As far as I can see GWR's preferred solution for any DMU shortfall is HST short sets, at least you get a quality knackered old train rather than crap knackered old train.

Plus given the well to do area of those Branches imagine a Vivarail D train Bodge turning up

Plus of course where are the 319's for the Thames Valley? oh yes they are in a siding while the Northern Ones are working as intended.

 

[Jonny]

Such an ECS would be no slower than the average freight train, the fact most passenger trains call at Twyford would make up for the maximum speed deficiency.

Ah, but GWR's 165s are all of the 165/1 variety; they have a top speed of 90mph and are much easier to slot in as ECS moves.

 

[Bletchleyite]

the Northern Ones are working as intended.

I think that's probably being kind given the reliability issues the things seem to have.

 

[D365]

Plus given the well to do area of those Branches imagine a Vivarail D train Bodge turning up

Right, and then you seemingly go on to sing your praises of the Class 319. Imagine if Vivarail had swept up a few of the spares at Long Marston, what would you have to say then

 

[D365]

If it wasn't for the issue of retraining and the fact that Porterbrook have invested into them, there's plenty of 321s going spare very shortly. Though there's obviously separate discussions for that.

 

[47802]

Right, and then you seemingly go on to sing your praises of the Class 319. Imagine if Vivarail had swept up a few of the spares at Long Marston, what would you have to say then

Have I ever sung the praises of a 319 I don't think, a think a 769 is potentially a bit better than a D train but that not's saying much, a least its it's mainline train and the Bi-mode potentially offers some benefit.