Denmark Hill station - why's it too small?

[BRX]

Denmark Hill was refurbed around 4 years ago. This involved the construction of a new ticket hall, and a new footbridge with lifts and ramp access from the street.

But the new ticket hall isn't big enough - just four gates for a station that's as busy as Farringdon or City Thameslink. It ought to have been possible to retain the previous ticket hall too, at least as a location for extra gates, but it was converted into a coffee shop.

And there's only one ticket machine.

This morning, apparently only one gate was working and there were no staff to be seen, with the result that people were queuing onto the platforms and along the street.

What went wrong when they did the redesign? Did someone mess up their calculations? Or is it that the station has become a lot busier since the introduction of the Overground?

 

[civ-eng-jim]

I've only ridden past it but I recall most of the original Denmark Hill station is a pub.

Is the grey box on Champion Park the only portion set aside for railway passenger use?

Is there the space to fit anything more substantial in?

 

[BRX]

Yes, about 3/4 of the original building is a pub. Previously the other 1/4 was the ticket office/entrance. That was closed when the Champion Hill box opened, and made into a coffee shop. The Champion Hill box is the only bit (aside from the connecting walkway) set aside for passenger use now.

 

[civ-eng-jim]

Just looking at the figures - 7 MILLION passengers a year! I'm not surprised there's a queue back onto the platforms.

 

[DelW]

Or is it that the station has become a lot busier since the introduction of the Overground?

I should imagine that might be part of the problem.

I visited the pub a few times in the mid 1980s after it first opened as the Phoenix and Firkin, and at the time, train services stopping at the station were sufficiently infrequent that it took a bit of planning to be able to get there and back within opening hours. (For younger readers, of course opening hours were much shorter then than now.)

 

[Mikey C]

I should imagine that might be part of the problem.

I visited the pub a few times in the mid 1980s after it first opened as the Phoenix and Firkin, and at the time, train services stopping at the station were sufficiently infrequent that it took a bit of planning to be able to get there and back within opening hours. (For younger readers, of course opening hours were much shorter then than now.)

After a few pints of Dogbolter, if you missed the last train you would have been happy to sleep on a platform or a park bench

 

[DelW]

After a few pints of Dogbolter, if you missed the last train you would have been happy to sleep on a platform or a park bench

I don't think I ever risked more than one pint of Dogbolter per session

In those days anything above about 1045OG / roughly 4.5% was regarded as rocket fuel.

 

[telstarbox]

Just looking at the figures - 7 MILLION passengers a year! I'm not surprised there's a queue back onto the platforms.

As it serves a hospital, that passenger total may be more spread over the day than for a typical commuter station.

 

[thruud]

I use DMK daily and it is a truly hideous experience. The old station entrance used to be on the corner next to the pub, and became the coffee shop. The problem with the new entrance is that there are usually only 2 gates for each direction, then on entry you have to make an immediate left/right turn on a very confined corner to get to the platforms, or walk down the very long ramp to the footbridge.

Overcrowding is a major issue on entry as if one gate is playing up, everyone is channeled through it. Its also a major issue on exit as you get channelled to the same exit regardless of which route you use. It can often take up to 10 minutes to get out of the station if a couple of trains come in at the same time. The station is getting a lot busier as it has Thameslink, Overground and Victoria services, which pick up a lot of commuters who change there (last interchange point possible) or its got a lot of shift hospital workers. It is noticeably busier now than it has been for years.

what really scares me using it is the level of overcrowding, particularly people in the confined gallery between the platform stairs and pub wall - its very narrow and if there was an emergency, could be a deathtrap. There is no other station fire exit, and anyone there has nowhere to go. The new much vaunted footbridge had an entrance on it to Windsor Walk during construction, but this closed. If it was possible to put a gate there, or on other end of the footbridge, it would ease a lot of the pressure of numbers for people like myself, who wouldnt need to use the main road exit.

Its too small a station with too many passengers and is a an accident waiting to happen.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Just looking at the figures - 7 MILLION passengers a year! I'm not surprised there's a queue back onto the platforms.

As a bit of extra perspective - there are just under 32 million seconds in a year. So 7 million passengers a year means on average 1 passenger every 4.5 seconds. Since that's an average over all hours, day and night, but in practice most passengers are concentrated into certain hours of the day, you can see how busy that would imply the station gets!

 

[eastdyke]

I have been there a few times in the last 3 years and each time (never in the peaks) I have marvelled at the level of passenger congestion. Even more so than at Vauxhall and that really surprised me.

With a service/passenger increase on this scale if Denmark Hill Station was a level crossing (and yes I do know that it isn't) multiple mitigations would be brought forward by Network Rail on a safety case.
There must to be some pretty serious risk assessments in the records else some rather nervous Managers.

 

[thruud]

Would these safety risk assessments be releasable under FOI?

 

[eastdyke]

Would these safety risk assessments be releasable under FOI?

Not sure. If done by NR very probably.
But the station is managed by GTR (Thameslink) so it would be their risk assessments and very probably not.

 

[eastdyke]

The DfT publish 'Crowding Statistics' which includes the major stations in London and around England and Wales.
Nottingham is included and has similar passenger usage to Denmark Hill!
You could write to the DfT and suggest that they review their list?
https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...ays-in-major-cities-in-england-and-wales-2016
For a weekday in autumn 2016:

Blackfriars had the highest crowding level of all central London stations

And passenger usage at Blackfriars is only around 50% higher than for Denmark Hill - although perhaps rather more peak oriented.

 

[ijmad]

Something I read suggested the refurbishment and new footbridge had much more to do with access than capacity, although it helped with capacity, it was clear it never going to be enough long term on the day it opened (I was there!). The situation is far better than when the only entrance/exit to/from the station was a single width door (in what is now the coffee shop), but more improvement is needed.

A logical option would be to open another entrance on Windsor Walk (other side of the railway to Champion Hill, around here). The footbridge is practically the entire span of the cutting anyway, and you could also connect up the older stairways. Would likely take a lot of passengers who want to go to Kings College Hospital away from the main entrance if you created a walking route through or around the carpark on to Denmark Hill road.

 

[thruud]

There is already a good walking route through the Maudsley hospital as it is - it just needs reasonable signing and lighting - a lot of people don't know it exists.

during the refurb there was an entrance on Windsor Walk onto the bridge, so it has been done in the past - if done again it would make an enormous difference.

 

[ijmad]

There is already a good walking route through the Maudsley hospital as it is - it just needs reasonable signing and lighting - a lot of people don't know it exists.

during the refurb there was an entrance on Windsor Walk onto the bridge, so it has been done in the past - if done again it would make an enormous difference.

Interesting! I don't remember that during the refurb! But it was a while ago and my commute has varied a bit depending on which office I've been working from so it's possible I missed it. Occurs to me that there is a new block of flats that has gone up in some of the scrub land around there lately. Not sure exactly what land it sits on, but I sure hope it hasn't blocked off this as a possibility.

 

[thruud]

Yes, when the refurb was going on, the station access was run through the new footbridge - you can still see some of the legacy material there from this. The cut through is if you walk past pub, you'll see fetal medical centre in front of you - if you walk through those gates, then bear left along past a building, you end up in the Maudsley car park. It really cuts the corner off!

 

[BRX]

Yes I think I also remember there was an entrance on windsor walk during the refurb.

 

[Antman]

I use the station now and again and the ticket gates are often left open, presumably to avoid making things worse?

It does seem busy throughout the day, probably due to the hospitals. As others have alluded to another entrance into Windsor Walk would surely help the situation and turning the former entrance into a coffee shop perhaps wasn't the best of ideas?

 

[BRX]

I use the station now and again and the ticket gates are often left open, presumably to avoid making things worse?

The gates are usually in operation at peak times, and left open at quieter times, in my observation. I assume because it's not thought worth paying a member of staff to be there all the time.

 

[urpert]

Incidentally both pub and coffee shop are highly recommended. Despite being partly responsible for said overcrowding.

 

[ijmad]

Incidentally both pub and coffee shop are highly recommended. Despite being partly responsible for said overcrowding.

It's true, they make a decent latte.

 

[urpert]

It's true, they make a decent latte.

They sell good takeaway beans too, but now I’m heading way off topic.

 

[Busaholic]

As it serves a hospital, that passenger total may be more spread over the day than for a typical commuter station.

It serves at least two hospitals, with King's College being the major hospital for the residents of Southwark and Lambeth boroughs as well as a major incident hospital for a wider area e.g. more casualties were taken to it from the Westminster Bridge and London Bridge terror attacks than to any other hospital. However, it is almost completely useless to Lambeth residents and to many from Southwark too. For instance my sister, who is disabled and has never driven, has had many appointments there over the years, from four different addresses in both of those boroughs and using D.H. was never an option, even when she could use public transport. The trains to/from D.H. sail (or crawl) through many places without stopping, simply because there aren't any stations in those places, even though there used to be. Only Peckham could be said to be locally of use, and there are plenty of bus opportunities from there too with a short walk from Camberwell Green. The promise of a station on an extended Bakerloo Line at Camberwell was waved like a carrot for decades, until when the extension actually got seriously planned and, hey presto!, suddenly it was going via Old Kent Road instead. Even the better (to my mind) idea to extend the Charing Cross branch of the Northern Line this way was lost when Boris was seduced into supporting a billionaire's plan for Battersea Power Station and send it that way.

What Denmark Hill needs is a few prominent 'people of influence' to move there from Primrose Hill or Kentish Town, with a constant bombardment of wailing from George Osborne's 'Standard' to back them up, and then something might improve.

 

[cle]

I also very much like the perky old duffer who works at the barriers. But it's a victim of its own success. It has gained so many more services in the past few years -

- 4tph ELL each direction, later and Sunday Victoria trains, extra calls on Kent trains first in the peaks and then all day (1tph), the extra peak TL services while during works...

And proposed are 2tph more Victoria-Hayes, 2tph more TL/Catford loop - and then possibly another 2tph Clapham ELL... another 12tph through the station.

That's a huge amount of growth in services in a short number of years. Which in turn will make it even more useful as an interchange... something needs to be done more seriously. In the same time, surrounding areas have gentrified a lot too, increasing usage further.

 

[Kerrids]

It’s been unusually awful this week with passengers shouting at gate line staff who refused to open the gates to clear the crowds. The timetable is unfortunatly spaced so often there are 3 trains timed to arrive within 3 mins in the evening. An extra entrance on Windsor Walk is suggested in the Kent Route study but “needed by 2024 to meet forecast demand”. It’s needed much earlier than that!

 

[thruud]

On the East Dulwich Forum, the local councillor says that he's seen plans for the new entrance on Windsor Walk and it should be progressing soon.

Its been a really bad week for the station, although the older gentleman who works there and does announcements is superb - he does a really good job at keeping people up to date on what is going on.

 

[civ-eng-jim]

On the East Dulwich Forum, the local councillor says that he's seen plans for the new entrance on Windsor Walk and it should be progressing soon.

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,1891027

Plenty of frothing at the mouth going on in that forum.

 

[Antman]

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,1891027

Plenty of frothing at the mouth going on in that forum.

Really? Most of it seems be the same concerns that have been expressed on here.